Drying out wood for carving.

[Mick w.]

...Any tips?
I had a few bits of branches from off the ground drying out, they weren't rotten or owt and looked just the right size for slicing up and practising my carving.
I left them in the garage for a while, went to get them today, and they've all developed a split/crack down the length of them so they useless now.
I don't really want to be chopping branches off living trees, so any tips on how to dry wood out, or tips on which wood is best to collect for carving? I don't mean which tree, but wood that's on the ground, or caught up in branches, or what?

 

[JJJ]

Bring it home, split it making sure the pith has gone, then seal the ends with Endseal, a couple of dips in wax or even gloss paint. Make sure the seal goes 5 or 10mm past the end grain. Weigh it and leave it some where cool until it stops losing weight, then move it a warmer room 20C plus and weigh it till it stops losing weight again. This is a quick method to get wood into a good state for the lathe or carving.. Normally the rule is one year per inch of thickness, but using this technique it's only weeks.

If the piece is small you can dry it in the microwave in short burst on defrost, I know folk who have a lot of success with this, but I don't like risking it.

The trick is to fall into step with nature, to constantly be processing some wood for the future. After a few weeks you will always have processed wood ready.

It sounds like a lot of the wood you find is likely to be at least half way there if it has been seasoning in the woods. I came across a large Sycamore that must of been down a while, it perfect to use straight away.

Finally you can speed up the process by carving green then drying it . That way there is less wood to dry. I stick cups, noggins or Kuksa in a bag for a few days to slow the drying a bit, but bows I clamp to a flat, straight 4 by 2 to stop them warping, sealing the end grain first.

A constant supply of processed wood, a lot of projects on the go , all at different states of completion , all govered by nature and the pleasure of knowing where the wood came from......heaven

Good luck John

 

[robin wood]

I would advise any beginner to learn the delights of carving green wood. It is softer and far more fun to carve than dry. What is important whether you carve dry or green is how you cut the branch up to get the blank for whatever you are going to make. If you carve a 3" cup from a 3" log it will have the centre in it and alm,ost certainly split either during final drying or during use. You need to find larger wood and split it in half, then get on with your carving. If you carve quickly from green to nearly finished then you can let it dry quite quickly in a few days.

 

[Baggy]

Here I am again saying "I agree with Robin".

I like my wood green and do all I can to get as soon after felling as possible.

As a slow carver I tend to start carving in the morning to give me time to get the bulk of the
wood removal done in the same day I start.

 

[Rogelio L.]

Thanks for the advice: I was about to start a thread about the topic as yesterday I cut some green wood for making an axe helve in the future and I was concerned about it splitting or cracking while it was drying out. I was thinking about carving it while the wood was green to remove the bulk and then finishing it off when it had dried out. However someone told me that it is more likelly to crack if it has been carved down than a whole branch. I split the branch in two, carved a helve out of one half and left the other half alone, and them left them both to dry out. In this way if one of them cracks I will still have either a piece of adequate wood or a helve.

 

[JJJ]

Carving a spoon or cup green is always a pleasure, but there are plenty of decorative forms of carving that its far better to use seasoned timber. If you go to almost any carving class, anywhere in the world you are likely to be given a seasoned block of knot free Lime, Basswood etc. Traditional carvers for hundreds of years have used seasoned wood. Chip carving, Scandinavian flat plane, Relief carving...anything you see in old buildings around the world, furniture , doors panels etc.

Treen is great carved green, but if you want to decorate it, it helps if it is dry. Whether as Welsh spoons or as a Noggin or Kuksa. Wet fibres often wont cut cleanly.

It's worth knowing how to dry wood, even if it's just to put a unique handle on your Bushcraft knife or your axe. I often find more wood then I could possible carve whilst it's still green, so it needs to be dried. There is a big difference between a hard wood to carve and a hard wood. Lignum Vitae is the hardest of wood but can cut like butter when seasoned. Cherry is another hard wood but can be very difficult to carve because of how it splits and splinters. Birch is thought to be easy to carve, but I have a tree full at the moment that is a nightmare to carve.

I think it's worth keeping your options open as a beginner. Variety can help your creativity and the more techniques you try, the more options you have.

 

[robin wood]

I cut some green wood for making an axe helve

You might find this thread useful http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38767
and this
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38842&highlight=axe+handle

Most woodworkers in the western world work dry wood and have done so since the 18th century. Prior to that the majority of work from timber frame buildings and boatbuilding to treen and joined furniture was made from green wood. Most woodworkers today have lost (or never had) the skills needed and the understanding of how wood moves in order to work this way and so simply say you have to use dry wood. Flat plane carving is a good example where most folk use dry lime but the original master of the technique used alder http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2010/12/flat-plane-woodcarving.html

 

[Mick w.]

Cheers folks, I'll go and get some more now - along with some nettles for practicing a bit of cordage.
JJJ, you mentioned 'making sure the pith has gone'...
...not sure what you mean? Is that like making sure it's got no sap in it? And split it how, lengthways or just across the end?
What I wanted to do was to cut the log into slices at an angle to give me a sort of oval shape, still with the bark on, then carve some leaf shapes into it. Simple for some I know, but you gotta start somewhere!

 

[robin wood]

Cheers folks, I'll go and get some more now - along with some nettles for practicing a bit of cordage.
JJJ, you mentioned 'making sure the pith has gone'...
...not sure what you mean? Is that like making sure it's got no sap in it? And split it how, lengthways or just across the end?
What I wanted to do was to cut the log into slices at an angle to give me a sort of oval shape, still with the bark on, then carve some leaf shapes into it. Simple for some I know, but you gotta start somewhere!

The pith is the central bit in the middle of the growth rings, if that is in your final work it is very likely to split. There are some ways of getting round this with some timbers but when learning it is far easier to first split in half lengthways straight through the pith, then you have 2 quite stable pieces of wood from which you can start planning your design. Ovals cut as you describe can just about hold together in some woods if relatively small and cut thin, laburnum and yew being good but with most woods they would end up splitting.

 

[JJJ]

Good luck with your axe handles Rogelio R.. I would weigh them and dry them until they stop loosing weight. I use a moisture meter now, but weighing is very good as long as you keep increasing the temperature gently. I have seen a lot of handles shrink leaving people in danger of the axe head flying off. I recently cut the drying time on an axe handle because the Rowen I wanted to use was lovely. Twice I have had to re- wedge the head and I should know better.



Robin, I have just spent far too long enjoying your sites this evening...thanks. But the more I read , the more surprised I was at a couple of your recent statements.

Firstly I must agree with you on a number of things. I prefer Alder to bland Lime. Fashion has made it a forgotten wood, along with Willow. Both are excellent woods when in contact with water but in different ways, both are great to carve. Both of these woods are ones I encourage folk to rediscover. Rhododendron is a wood I suggest people try.



Your work with Heritage crafts is outstanding but I keep coming back to two points, which contradict each other.



Firstly "Forget all the twaddle about how you dry it, it is how the kuksa blank is cut from the tree that matters." then even worse "Most woodworkers today have lost (or never had) the skills needed and the understanding of how wood moves in order to work this way and so simply say you have to use dry wood." I have to pull you up on these . I have plenty of friends who work in wood who will disagree with things I say, occasionally they are right ;-). In this case I must point out that the second statement on the surface contradicts the first and that it is insulting and patronising. You can work wood with out being able to sharpen tools, but you can't do anything in wood unless you understand how wood drys and moves. It don't matter if wood is green or " dry" these are fundamentals of working wood. I am firmly of the opinion that the more techniques you have the more innovative you can be. I am glad to see you make your own tools. Its something we teach and again see as liberating. I like that you praise cheap kit, if its good.But to suggest that your way is the only way and to dishonour so many craftsmen from the last few centuries is a disappointment. Maybe you are out there pushing boundaries , but don't belittle the rest of us.. we might be too.

Its a tradition within the arts, that a lot of folk have difficulty acknowledging other disciplines, opinions vary ,they must from individual concepts. But it that varied approach that produces variety and I hope that discussions such as this can take us both forward. It's strange but I would have named Laburnun and Yew as the wood most likely to split.......

 

[robin wood]

No t trying to belittle and sorry if this caused any personal offense. I don't see how the two comments above are contradictory they seem to me to be making the same point, it is not about how you dry it, it's understanding how different cuts of timber move differently that is important and few woodworkers today understand that, some cuts are stable and some are inherently under more stress. I don't know your work so in no way was commenting on it. What I was commenting on was the large percentage of woodworkers who form the market for kiln dried bowl blanks and boards, gizmos and gadgets that you see at every woodworking show and magazine. These folk become convinced that wood will split if it is not kiln dried and that if only they had x,y or z tool then they could produce wonderful work. These folk do make work without any understanding of the difference between tangential and radial shrinkage for instance and there is a huge industry for which they are the consumers. Modern joinery with tight fitting glue joints is one way of working but it is not true to suggest that it is the only way for furniture, door panels etc. The whole system of joined furniture was devised to work with loosely fitting draw bore joints in part dried timber just like timber frames. See cross sections of 17th century joints here http://www.greenwoodworking.com/DrawboredArticle

Laburnum was used extensively in 18th C cabinet making as "oysters" cut exactly as the OP described, a friend in the village does a lot of this work and has a veneer press full, they don't split even though complete rounds. Yew used in the same way. Example in yew here http://www.varah.co.uk/images/AV23059-12.jpg

JJJ whilst this may all seem adversarial it I suspect we have much in common if you teach woodwork and toolmaking I look forward to seeing some of your work, do you have a website? I agree about rhododendron, excellent for finding crooks for spooncarving. The way I work is only one way and I would never suggest it is the only way or that there is anything wrong say with modern bench joinery.

 

[JJJ]

I'm sure we are on the same side Robin and I certainly admire your dedication. I was rude of me not to introduce myself. I will try to else where. I think we might be suffering from trying to answer the same questions over and over again.But half an answer is often not enough. I was not clear about removing pith. and I am grateful for your answer. I did however try to answer the question about drying timber, and it turns out that at least some of the query had an axe handle in mind.

Back to pith ( and I am not taking it) I can show photos of cups with the pith still in, but that's because most rules can be broken, but if a cup is carved in wet wood then taken into a centrally heated room , chances are that it will split pith or no pith. Of course drying and movement are linked, we both know but maybe should be more specific.( I like how you refer back to articles you have already written) . I think that if I went outside and cut some ovals in Laburnum and Yew most would split unless I addressed some drying and shrinkage issues. The first being its windy and sunny today which can dry wood to quickly. You mentioned to cut thinly and now a veneer press. This is obviously not some thing I have given much thought to, so again I am grateful to you for opening another possible creative pathway.My daughter has a picture of a Robin and her name on such a piece of on her door. Occasionally I have wonder why it didn't split.



For me the danger on these forums is that in an attempt to give a short answer we might give the impression that there is only one way of doing things

.

For example, Kuksas are are popular to carve, split a log in half ( making sure it is wide enough, to allow the removal of the pith and the wood either side of it ;-) then its hollowed across the grain with a spoon knife.. Great but but there are other styles of cup. In British woods, cups were often carved by splitting a larger log and leaving a branch on for a handle then carving into the end grain. Is a spoon knife the best tool for carving either cup? It's designed for spoons.

There is also along tradition of decorating personnel Treen, why are we happy to just copy what has been done in Scandinavia instead of looking to our own past or finding new. The Internet in Bushcraft seems to stifle the new , preferring to keep looking back.



Staying with end grain, I have a friend who turns the most exciting bowls in wet Yew. He cuts into the end grain of a log or a forked log, and produces very thin walls He reckons that the majority split but that those that survive make it worth while. Take a chance sometimes is his motto.

We acquired some huge White Poplar logs recently, like Alder its a wood often forgotten. My friend carved a massive bowl into the end grain, . Its great but I was not brave enough to risk it on that occasion.,.



I am rabbiting, sorry. I won't touch on furniture joints, because we probably agree. I don't think it was anything to do with the original question, which was how to dry wood not whether too. I too suggested carving green, but I am fast seeing a lot of advantages of drying wood first, especially in a centrally heated world, but mainly for speed. I don't know a woodworker of any discipline that doesn't work with how wood moves but I do know cabinet makers who look down on greenwood workers and vice versa.

I will have to get back to work but I will leave you with a cautionary tail of how we acquired a huge quantity of Poplar and internet bushcrafters.



Walking Boss my dog on a blustery day, we came across some youngsters. They were pitching a tent but stopped to play with Boss. Two of them proudly told me that they were practising bushcraft. I asked about there choice of campsite and they proudly told me they were safe. They had checked they were not pitching under the 'widow maker'. That they had chosen a sheltered spot away from the river because their parents had told them to take water. That they would of preferred to have boiled water from the river. I agreed with their parents about the river water. It looks fast and clean but my son and friends were ill for months after swimming in it. Cattle use it just up stream.

I congratulated them on avoiding Beech trees, but explained that they should be wary of relying on the internet for info, perhaps they should join the scouts. That the White Poplar that they were under was far worse than Beech. I showed them a better spot, a place where they might see more wildlife and insisted that they should go and tell their folks about a change of site.

The next day they had been waiting, flushed with excitement not just from a close shave, ( out of 20 odd trees , most had dropped at least a branch, some a couple of feet in diameter, around the corner a whole tree was down. 3 or 4 foot in diameter ).Their excitement seemed to be as much to do with all the wood that they would have for bonfire night. I again suggested the scouts, explaining, that bushcraft was one of their subjects and that this Poplar was one of the worst firewood.



The internet has been such a liberating way of both finding and sharing knowledge, we really must give alternatives.



Robin I will post some pics, Rolgelio.r and Mick w, I am looking forward to seeing what you produce.



Cheers John

 

[Mick w.]

JJJ, I hope you're a patient kinda guy!

 

[JJJ]

Yep. Mick w. Over 45 and so enjoying being a grumpy old git. Can't lose patient if you are grumpy and have 3 ex wives, kids and a dog to annoy you. Take your time!

 

[robin wood]

In British woods, cups were often carved by splitting a larger log and leaving a branch on for a handle then carving into the end grain.

There is also along tradition of decorating personnel Treen, why are we happy to just copy what has been done in Scandinavia instead of looking to our own past or finding new. The Internet in Bushcraft seems to stifle the new , preferring to keep looking back.
Cheers John

Going off topic but this is interesting so hope OP will forgive.

First I am not familiar with the British tradition of carving cups in end grain with branch for handle could you point me to examples? The nearest I can think of is the turned Irish lamhogs of the 17th and 18th c. or perhaps earlier methers.

Why do UK bushcrafters look to Scandinavia for inspiration? Well primarily it is because the UK industrialised very early and lost much of this part of our culture. I have spent a huge amount of time in UK museum studdying early British woodware and in Sweden and basically in UK I have to look back 300 years to find locally produced domestic woodware as part of everyday culture, in Sweden it is less than 100 years and the ethnographic museums are full of it. Also the stuff bushcrafters tend to be inspired by is Northern Scandinavian and particularly Sami. Here the culture was for producing craft for individual needs and family where UK craft was from medieval times onwards largely profesional artisan production. This means different designs so for instance in the UK from 500ad-1600ad we ate predominantly from turned wooden bowls and there are very few hand carved vessels, this is the case in Southern and central Scandinavia too but in the North most vessels are hand carved. Obviously this gives more appropriate inspiration for bushcrafters. To go back to hunter gatherer nomadic culture in the UK is a long way and not as much survives but there is stuff, more from early farming cultures. We used to make shrink pots, bentwood boxes, carved vessels of superb form etc in the Neolithic and Bronze age.

As for the questions about looking forward, innovation and new design. This is artworld speak where since Duschamps fountain there has been obsession with "innovation". As Mark Jones outgoing director of the V&A points out "innovation" is actually a meaningless word, every work by every artist or craftsperson is unique and inspired by something. What we should be celebrating is excellence whether in traditional or new design.
Bit more rant on that subject here http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2011/07/marcel-duchamp-and-prediction-about-art.html

 

[JJJ]

Looking forward, innovation and new design are human traits applied to everything around us. We improve everything from grass to new forms of energy. They are certainly not the monopoly of the art world. I understand the why of the Scandinavian influence, I was asking why slavishly follow it.

Funny you mention the V&A, back in the 80's and 90's I had a minor dispute with them. I refused to sell them some of my photographs. They saw them as art and I didn't. They needed to be put in context within a magazine or newspaper.. They were not for voyeuristic use by the well off art world.( The only thing worse would have been if a member of my staff sold a picture to Saatchi & Saatchi to sell Heiniken. She was finally sacked)

Now here am I suggesting we could add a bit more personal art to our everyday items . To draw maybe from nature around us and personalise our kit just as our fore fathers did. Next time you are in London or Lancaster, try the Maritime museums.See how our ancestors took ideas from around the world and made them there own.


As to end grain cups,I have never tried to find their origin. I am at least a forth generation woodworker, with it extending back through both grandfathers. So if their father's fathers carved them its likely that it extended further back and certainly to us, its traditional. If museums dont have any I am not surprised . Most early Welsh woodwork emigrated to America in the 80's. You try and find a Welsh dresser in Wales now, everything disappeared. My traditional craft skills come from Wales as a boy but also from the Cotswold's and Somerset. If I wanted to track the origin down , I would try these places first.

In Wales woodenware has always been produced locally , it certainly did not cease 300 years ago. My main influence is Welsh spoon making.I rarely use tradition symbols but items from the lives of the folk who commission them. We call them story spoons and normally they are highly personal, again not for the public eye, but a record of the past for that family. I say take from the past, use old techniques, new if need be. but go forward. Look at the world around you and get inspiration from it. One day I might be carving dragons, eagles, otters or brambles, the next trains , ca or a violin.

We are so far off track here, what I will do is post some pictures in an article showing how we could be taking from the past but be looking forward. I will compare some items carved when green and show why I often opt for seasoned timber. Not kiln dried , but processed by me and explain the joys of using it and the benefit of making your own tools.

I will concentrate on the decorative carving of cups and spoons, maybe break some rules. I could maybe take the design aspect of craft into metal as well. Don't hold your breath as I am off to Scotland on a Burr hunt.My current interest in cups, kuksas and noggins was sparked by trying to get the most out of small burrs. This led to an approach by a forest school to think of something to carve other than woodspirits. I was surprised as nature is overflowing with suggestions, but I have come up with some simple forms and am now just looking at how I would get kids to carve safely,( having been approached by Scout leaders unsure of how to pass on knife skills.)

Its a shame we have diverted from drying wood, it can be so simple and change a piece dramatically. Drying can mean leaving a log for a year, that log can still be seen as green timber, its certainly not kiln dried. A lot of our tools require handles, it's fantastic to use a piece of wood that is personal to you, that you have harvested , dried then shaped. I still use my fathers and grandfathers tools, and almost every time remember their hands on them. I also have tools that I have made. The handles are from an Oak , that I grew from an acorn from a special place .It was planted to celebrate me delivering my daughter into this world.

My team and my self are hoping to get to the Bodger's Ball. Maybe we can continue this over a cider then Robin. For now I better work out how to post a picture. If I can here are a couple of cups, kuksas or noggins. Being an " arty " (spit! ) type they are copyrighted I have no problems with individuals copying , but will draw the line at pro's mass producing for sale. Funny old world this internet bushcraft!

Cheers John

 

[Paganwolf]

Quote JJJ......"Funny old world this internet bushcraft!"......

It sure is buddy, it sure is........