doomsdayers/preppers
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BIG LOL
This thread has really made me smile.
No matter how old we get, some folk just can't let something go. We still want to 'square up' in the playground
I suppose that's one of the joys of text based reasoning.
But, to comment on the OP, I think post #2 mentioned the difference between survivalists now and the guns and combat knife crazed individuals of the early 1980s. There is a good reason for that, however, I can see a return to that sort of feeling gradually developing as things steadily go more tits up in the Middle East and Western Economies grow weaker.
The 1980s were not the hight of the Cold War, but it was the hight of tensions in a potential East/West engagement in Europe. As such a whole raft of paperbacks, magazines and films were devoted to survival and the post apocalyptic environment in which we would live. I was born in '62 and remember vividly the feelings that went through my mind at the time when the Falklands War developed. To my mind (and more than a few others) it wasn't this small war that was as important as the WARPAC countries studying our logistical capabilities and how much ordinance had been allocated and used, along with how effective modern combat techniques and weapons were in a war scenario with limited capability for maneuver.
I have no doubt in my mind that should the poo hit the fan, those in small, tight-knit communities will be far better off than those in big towns and cities. Just look at the recent riots...triggered by what? (I know there was a trigger, but to cause such widespread anarchy....seriously worrying). If anyone has watched the recent remake of the 'Survivors' series on BBC, I think it touched upon many potential issues that we would find ourselves dealing with.
Finally, and on a more international scale; Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' written in 1931 had/has a significant message for anyone bothering to read it. The USA...our greatest ally?
'Huxley used the setting and characters from his science fiction novel to express widely held opinions, particularly the fear of losing individual identity in the fast-paced world of the future. An early trip to the United States gave Brave New World much of its character. Not only was Huxley outraged by the culture of youth, commercial cheeriness, sexual promiscuity and the inward-looking nature of many Americans,[7] he had also found a book by Henry Ford on the boat to America. There was a fear of Americanization in Europe, so to see America firsthand, as well as read the ideas and plans of one of its foremost citizens, spurred Huxley to write Brave New World with America in mind.' Quote from Wiki
Sack
This thread has really made me smile.
No matter how old we get, some folk just can't let something go. We still want to 'square up' in the playground
I suppose that's one of the joys of text based reasoning.
But, to comment on the OP, I think post #2 mentioned the difference between survivalists now and the guns and combat knife crazed individuals of the early 1980s. There is a good reason for that, however, I can see a return to that sort of feeling gradually developing as things steadily go more tits up in the Middle East and Western Economies grow weaker.
The 1980s were not the hight of the Cold War, but it was the hight of tensions in a potential East/West engagement in Europe. As such a whole raft of paperbacks, magazines and films were devoted to survival and the post apocalyptic environment in which we would live. I was born in '62 and remember vividly the feelings that went through my mind at the time when the Falklands War developed. To my mind (and more than a few others) it wasn't this small war that was as important as the WARPAC countries studying our logistical capabilities and how much ordinance had been allocated and used, along with how effective modern combat techniques and weapons were in a war scenario with limited capability for maneuver.
I have no doubt in my mind that should the poo hit the fan, those in small, tight-knit communities will be far better off than those in big towns and cities. Just look at the recent riots...triggered by what? (I know there was a trigger, but to cause such widespread anarchy....seriously worrying). If anyone has watched the recent remake of the 'Survivors' series on BBC, I think it touched upon many potential issues that we would find ourselves dealing with.
Finally, and on a more international scale; Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' written in 1931 had/has a significant message for anyone bothering to read it. The USA...our greatest ally?
'Huxley used the setting and characters from his science fiction novel to express widely held opinions, particularly the fear of losing individual identity in the fast-paced world of the future. An early trip to the United States gave Brave New World much of its character. Not only was Huxley outraged by the culture of youth, commercial cheeriness, sexual promiscuity and the inward-looking nature of many Americans,[7] he had also found a book by Henry Ford on the boat to America. There was a fear of Americanization in Europe, so to see America firsthand, as well as read the ideas and plans of one of its foremost citizens, spurred Huxley to write Brave New World with America in mind.' Quote from Wiki
Sack
If IT happens the best survival strategy is to join the Special Constables/Ration distribution corps/Hygiene battalions whatever official is going. Anyone think that the High Commissioner for Derbyshire is going to miss any meals? Queue up for your rations and keep an eye out for when there ain't anymore coming through then hightail it making sure you take any special passes or ration cards you have been able to glom. Lose the uniform if the crowds get nasty of course, take a track suit to work
Longer term fishing and strandloping will help a lot because although deer could be wiped out by subsistence hunting it is not true for sea fishing. Get rid of the vast commercial fisheries and there would be plenty left for those with the nouse to fish sea fish for their families. A secure base might be the problem but live humble and anywhere in reach of the coast would do. Camping on the foreshore even would not be a great hardship and with the demise of city sewage systems and agro-business farming the water from rivers and streams could be a lot healthier in the long term.
Longer term fishing and strandloping will help a lot because although deer could be wiped out by subsistence hunting it is not true for sea fishing. Get rid of the vast commercial fisheries and there would be plenty left for those with the nouse to fish sea fish for their families. A secure base might be the problem but live humble and anywhere in reach of the coast would do. Camping on the foreshore even would not be a great hardship and with the demise of city sewage systems and agro-business farming the water from rivers and streams could be a lot healthier in the long term.
Incidentally it is probably easier to store coffee/whisky/cigarettes than sufficient food for years and you aren't an obvious target for the starving but someone will always be willing to slip you something tasty for a jar of Gold bend or a pack of Kensitas. Then long term after the event get into distilling business, grow tobacco and cultivate tea plants or forage for something caffeine rich (back to Bushcraft!). Stay away from the harder drugs of course because you don't want to have to face customers when they run out and they aren't very nice either and any surviving law will be sniffy about it as well.
E
Elements
Guest
This is all interesting stuff folks, but clearly misses some of the basics which are important to get sorted prior to the other stuff like nicking a boat (although I like the idea)
I do and have spent a time working in some interesting places, my strategy for this is based upon the following:
Observation of the locality (Physical, emotional, societal, economic)
Identify threats from the observation period & priorities in terms of severity
Structure in terms of a likelihood & likely time frame before threat becomes reality
Are there any threats which are avoidable / preventable? If so how? Is it reasonable, practical without upsetting your life equilibrium?
Develop a simple, rational, unemotional plan to deal with the threats, starting with the most likely first. Can your simple plan manage several threats simultaneously??
Rehearse plans (in my experience in a non obvious gentle way, no point making a mountain out of a molehill!)
Regularly review the above
This can be done on a micro, meso and macro scale.
Something I had a discussion about in Africa the other year, was how to do all of this with out becoming the problem yourself!! The thought was, that a too complicated and radical plan will very often equate to you becoming the threat to the rest of society and then more of the problem than the solution, therefore increasing your own risk.
So back to the topic. Based upon your educated rational observations what are the current REAL threats we should prepare for?
I do and have spent a time working in some interesting places, my strategy for this is based upon the following:
Observation of the locality (Physical, emotional, societal, economic)
Identify threats from the observation period & priorities in terms of severity
Structure in terms of a likelihood & likely time frame before threat becomes reality
Are there any threats which are avoidable / preventable? If so how? Is it reasonable, practical without upsetting your life equilibrium?
Develop a simple, rational, unemotional plan to deal with the threats, starting with the most likely first. Can your simple plan manage several threats simultaneously??
Rehearse plans (in my experience in a non obvious gentle way, no point making a mountain out of a molehill!)
Regularly review the above
This can be done on a micro, meso and macro scale.
Something I had a discussion about in Africa the other year, was how to do all of this with out becoming the problem yourself!! The thought was, that a too complicated and radical plan will very often equate to you becoming the threat to the rest of society and then more of the problem than the solution, therefore increasing your own risk.
So back to the topic. Based upon your educated rational observations what are the current REAL threats we should prepare for?
Oh no, do we really have to deal with Reality? I was quite happy in my own little world, preparing to nick that boat..... ho well back to the day job.
And it was a nice boat too.
So planning for the Zomby Appocalypse, and how I'd seduce a GM Mila Jolosovitch clone are out? Ho Hum.
This is just my educated guess for the midlands
Civil Disorder
As we saw recently, some of the yobs will riot at the drop of a hat. Best policy, barricade your doors and windows and stay off the streets if it comes near you, and not to apear as though you have anything worth nicking. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
Pandemic
May lead to above, but WILL lead to a drop in essential services. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
Weather
May lead to drop in esential services and trapping peeps indoors, shops will soon run out of essentials. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
On a side note, I was considering trying to blag a few boxes of amoxicilian from my doc in case we had ****ty weatehr next week, not sure if this would work though.
So planning for the Zomby Appocalypse, and how I'd seduce a GM Mila Jolosovitch clone are out? Ho Hum.
This is just my educated guess for the midlands
Civil Disorder
As we saw recently, some of the yobs will riot at the drop of a hat. Best policy, barricade your doors and windows and stay off the streets if it comes near you, and not to apear as though you have anything worth nicking. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
Pandemic
May lead to above, but WILL lead to a drop in essential services. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
Weather
May lead to drop in esential services and trapping peeps indoors, shops will soon run out of essentials. Stockpile essentials Such as food, fuel, medical supplies
On a side note, I was considering trying to blag a few boxes of amoxicilian from my doc in case we had ****ty weatehr next week, not sure if this would work though.
Good points Elements.
Ref REAL threats , there is a delicate line between Intergrating preps into one normal life and lving in a case of self created paranoia. Local threats to the UK are probably nothing compared to some of the situations you may face on trips Africa.
Mid-term threats ? Peak Oil , Economic Collapse , Peak Population effect on Finite Food and Energy , Supervolcanoes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervolcano
Possible Threats? CME http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_mass_ejection
Impact Event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event
Global Pandemic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
We tend to think of things as only having a possibilty of happening in OUR lifetime , whilst most cataclysmic events happen in their own time frame.
Some things you can plan for and the alterations to ones life are minimal but the return is ( can be ) massive , a Multifuel burner in ones house is great...when the boiler packs up. A generator stored in the Garage is great...when you suffer a blackout.
I think many in the UK don't see the point of Preps in their life because the/our Western world is set up to have all our service on Tap and we get accustomed to it that its such a shock when it removed.
I would imagine people living in the wilder parts of Oz , America , South America , Africa and some of our own smaller UK Islands maintain a far more prep minded point of view.
IMO.
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I know it's childish an all, but the term coronal mass ejection has had me sniggering like a naughty schoolboy who's just heard a very smutty joke.
It's not always a matter of deliberately "prepping" here either. I remember my first hurricane, Camille," when I was 12. We lived in the country (not remote but the country nonetheless) We didn't deliberately "prep" but having extra was just the way of life. My grandfather had a country store an we got milk and eggs and such pretty much as we needed it; but our real shopping was only done once every week or two when we drove to town so we normally got enough to stock extra. It was/is also common to buy extras whenever items are on sale to take advantage of the full price. This is just a common part of the lifestyle here without thinking about it.
I suppose the most common act of deliberate prepping here (on the Florida coast) is the things you do immediately before a hurricane: fill all gas tanks, stock drinking water, double check existing food supplies and meds, make sure the emergency generator works (needed to keep the fridge & freezer working so as not to lose contents; especially refrigerated meds such as diabetic injections) Of course that's for something short term such as weather emergencies.
Long term prepping begs a question: Are any of you on special meds? Such as insulin? Beyetta? Victoza" Or anything else that requires refrigeration?
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I remember back in the 80s a lot of the survival sites proposed obtaining such medical supplies and meds from veterinarians.
Oceangoing yacht
Stocks of food in the boat and on remote islands
Dismantle the radar reflector
Have a bloody good radar set
Remain hidden
All this idea of my pantry/veg plot is full is just bull****e. Unless you can protect what you've got you'll end up dead. Best stay hidden hence oceangoing yacht.
Stocks of food in the boat and on remote islands
Dismantle the radar reflector
Have a bloody good radar set
Remain hidden
All this idea of my pantry/veg plot is full is just bull****e. Unless you can protect what you've got you'll end up dead. Best stay hidden hence oceangoing yacht.
I have a mate in the US that is mega into this prepping since hitting civvy street.
We've had many a chat over it as his tactic is to store as many guns and ammo as legally allowed.
He stocks up on rice, wheat, bleach etc etc.
My opinion is that if the S does HTF big style then the ONLY way you'll survive long term is in a social group.
He is currently recovering from glandular fever which has had him on his back for pretty much 2 weeks, last year he broke his leg motorcrossing.
I explained that if he was not in a group then there is a good chance either of those would have eventually been fatal.
Odd thing from me as a Brit is that talking to Mrs parents (Greek) when they were kids they grew up in villages that had no electricity, no roads and were pretty much closed off to the rest of the world 4 months a year.
Her Mum can go out up the mountain opposite and come back with a half decent meal we eat fresh χόρτα at least once a week.
As a keen fisherman i'm confident i can supply food most days, me Jack Russell although not trained to catch rabbits wouldn't need much training after not eating for 2 days i guess (if no fish were caught).
I know of 2 fresh water wells in the area, so that's sorted.
The guy opposite is a carpenter so it'd do well to get in with him
I think wandering mobs aside we'd be ok for a few years, problem then would be things like antibiotics, tinned food running out, bleach, lack of wood (well Athens has 6 million people and only a very small wooded area, it wouldn't take long before all the trees i'd be gone.
With no bleach and no wood we'd then struggle to render our water supply safe.
Oddly enough if the **** then it's bleach i'd stock up on first.
Boats are a fail IMO.
Sail boats aren't big enough to give a consistent supply of food
Motor boats consume fuel at a rate unimaginable.
For the massive boats being discussed your talking at least 1000 gallons per hour being burned.
The engines alone having a displacement around 25,000cc
Being 2 stroke turbo diesel engines they are massively efficient, but still your slow, big and a huge target as fuel is going to be VERY precious.
Even on small boats, if i'm REALLY careful i can get 15 gph out of my boat (that doesn't leak).
For sure that's no where near big enough to grow food on or raise lifestock, after a weekend on that you've really had enough, never mind live aboard.
Cheers
Mark
We've had many a chat over it as his tactic is to store as many guns and ammo as legally allowed.
He stocks up on rice, wheat, bleach etc etc.
My opinion is that if the S does HTF big style then the ONLY way you'll survive long term is in a social group.
He is currently recovering from glandular fever which has had him on his back for pretty much 2 weeks, last year he broke his leg motorcrossing.
I explained that if he was not in a group then there is a good chance either of those would have eventually been fatal.
Odd thing from me as a Brit is that talking to Mrs parents (Greek) when they were kids they grew up in villages that had no electricity, no roads and were pretty much closed off to the rest of the world 4 months a year.
Her Mum can go out up the mountain opposite and come back with a half decent meal we eat fresh χόρτα at least once a week.
As a keen fisherman i'm confident i can supply food most days, me Jack Russell although not trained to catch rabbits wouldn't need much training after not eating for 2 days i guess (if no fish were caught).
I know of 2 fresh water wells in the area, so that's sorted.
The guy opposite is a carpenter so it'd do well to get in with him
I think wandering mobs aside we'd be ok for a few years, problem then would be things like antibiotics, tinned food running out, bleach, lack of wood (well Athens has 6 million people and only a very small wooded area, it wouldn't take long before all the trees i'd be gone.
With no bleach and no wood we'd then struggle to render our water supply safe.
Oddly enough if the **** then it's bleach i'd stock up on first.
Boats are a fail IMO.
Sail boats aren't big enough to give a consistent supply of food
Motor boats consume fuel at a rate unimaginable.
For the massive boats being discussed your talking at least 1000 gallons per hour being burned.
The engines alone having a displacement around 25,000cc
Being 2 stroke turbo diesel engines they are massively efficient, but still your slow, big and a huge target as fuel is going to be VERY precious.
Even on small boats, if i'm REALLY careful i can get 15 gph out of my boat (that doesn't leak
).For sure that's no where near big enough to grow food on or raise lifestock, after a weekend on that you've really had enough, never mind live aboard.
Cheers
Mark
Boats are a fail IMO.
Sail boats aren't big enough to give a consistent supply of food
Motor boats consume fuel at a rate unimaginable.
For the massive boats being discussed your talking at least 1000 gallons per hour being burned.
The engines alone having a displacement around 25,000cc
Being 2 stroke turbo diesel engines they are massively efficient, but still your slow, big and a huge target as fuel is going to be VERY precious.
Cheers
Mark
Hi Mark , great thoughts , ( what the hell is "χόρτα" please I need to know! ) I think the idea ref taking a large ship and parking it in the middle of the Humber was not to have the engines all for movement but use it as a mainly static floating base/castle , the position in the middle of the water would make it ( in theory ) easy to defend and the shape of the hull would make it difficult to scale.
I guess the fuel could be used to power a small rib and feed off the reserves for heating the living section of the superstructure.
Anyway , nice to hear this thread still got legs , any different suggestions ????
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Good to watch;-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...010_How_Many_People_Can_Live_on_Planet_Earth/
Interesting bit at 40 mins in.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...010_How_Many_People_Can_Live_on_Planet_Earth/
Interesting bit at 40 mins in.
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TeeDee has it right.
If it were me, I'd moor the big ship (well, board one that is already moored there) in a tidal estuary and rig some tidal generation gear - nothing major, just looking for a few kWs. Enough to power motion sensors and lights, so anyone trying to board would be detected, and you had lighting 24/7.
Ocean going yacht would be a major fail. You really can't carry much food or stores on those boats; what do you do when the stores run out? No space to grow any more and you can't live off fish alone.
If it were me, I'd moor the big ship (well, board one that is already moored there) in a tidal estuary and rig some tidal generation gear - nothing major, just looking for a few kWs. Enough to power motion sensors and lights, so anyone trying to board would be detected, and you had lighting 24/7.
Ocean going yacht would be a major fail. You really can't carry much food or stores on those boats; what do you do when the stores run out? No space to grow any more and you can't live off fish alone.
