Plus 1 to getting proper instruction. You wouldn't try to learn how to skydive on your own with home made kit. Would you?
Climbing/descending gear advice
- Thread starter ateallthepies
- Start date
Lots of good advice above, my tuppence then.
Go find a caving club and learn some basic SRT (Single Rope Technique), you'll learn more from cavers as they're much more equipment technical than climbers, and they actually spend a lot of time practicing rope work techniques and rescue, where as climbers spend their time practicing climbing and tend to tidy up their rope work after the event.
Generally speaking, for loaded (where staying in contact with the surface of a slope depends on the kit, i.e. if the rope failed you'd fall) ascent and decent, never use less than a "half" rated dynamic rope, and for a semi static 10.5mm, you could go lower with semi static for non-fully-committed assistance but in all honesty you'll struggle to find reliable semi static in smaller diameters made to a recognised personal protective equipment standard, EN1891 low stretch (semi static) covers 8.5mm to 16mm, but by far the most readily available and competitively priced are those in the region of 10.5mm and 11mm as there's just so much more demand for those.
Accessory/para/etc. cord just isn't suitable, you won't find devices that it'll work reliably with, and it's too thin to hold securely by hand. Also, figures like "600kg test" (which means minimum breaking load, MBL) sounds a lot, but a 100kg load dropping 60cm generates roughly that, plus the thinner the cord the more prone to abrasion and cutting. Realising "Infinity" in rope terms means failure, and it's shockingly easy to achieve with unsuitable material.
I won't get into devices harnesses etc as you need to be shown by people who know what they're doing, so find a caving club that practices an element of SRT, within just a few practice sessions you'll learn a lot, plus you'll have a line to people whom you can get out to learn the ropes with. From there it's just a short journey to being confident going out under your own steam.
If your life depended on it and there was no other option you'd use what was to hand, but if it's just a bit of adventure don't try and reinvent the wheel, and remember that cavers and climbers are where they are today having benefited from collectively accumulated knowledge built up from those who have gone before, having learnt from those less fortunate.
Go find a caving club and learn some basic SRT (Single Rope Technique), you'll learn more from cavers as they're much more equipment technical than climbers, and they actually spend a lot of time practicing rope work techniques and rescue, where as climbers spend their time practicing climbing and tend to tidy up their rope work after the event.
Generally speaking, for loaded (where staying in contact with the surface of a slope depends on the kit, i.e. if the rope failed you'd fall) ascent and decent, never use less than a "half" rated dynamic rope, and for a semi static 10.5mm, you could go lower with semi static for non-fully-committed assistance but in all honesty you'll struggle to find reliable semi static in smaller diameters made to a recognised personal protective equipment standard, EN1891 low stretch (semi static) covers 8.5mm to 16mm, but by far the most readily available and competitively priced are those in the region of 10.5mm and 11mm as there's just so much more demand for those.
Accessory/para/etc. cord just isn't suitable, you won't find devices that it'll work reliably with, and it's too thin to hold securely by hand. Also, figures like "600kg test" (which means minimum breaking load, MBL) sounds a lot, but a 100kg load dropping 60cm generates roughly that, plus the thinner the cord the more prone to abrasion and cutting. Realising "Infinity" in rope terms means failure, and it's shockingly easy to achieve with unsuitable material.
I won't get into devices harnesses etc as you need to be shown by people who know what they're doing, so find a caving club that practices an element of SRT, within just a few practice sessions you'll learn a lot, plus you'll have a line to people whom you can get out to learn the ropes with. From there it's just a short journey to being confident going out under your own steam.
If your life depended on it and there was no other option you'd use what was to hand, but if it's just a bit of adventure don't try and reinvent the wheel, and remember that cavers and climbers are where they are today having benefited from collectively accumulated knowledge built up from those who have gone before, having learnt from those less fortunate.
I have many times, and it is hard work, but that's why I said "in case you need it for getting back up." Rather than "climb the rope with a prusik, it's a right laugh!"
In my caving safety kit I always carried an 8mm rope, a sling, a pair of karabinas, and two Petzl Tibloc ascenders. Works very well for when you realised that you just want a little extra security on a climb down a face, or on one occasion, when my friend swore blind that this was the right route, and it turns out that having fallen down the 20ft pitch to the dead end, I had to then get back up again. I was young and stupid, I don't recommend you do the same.
Also worth noting the Tibloc also works really well as a bottle opener, and when knocked gently makes a beautiful ringing sound...
J
Also worth noting the Tibloc also works really well as a bottle opener, and when knocked gently makes a beautiful ringing sound...
J
Lots of good cautionary advice given above, my two pennorth FWIW:
cavers are deffo better at ropework than most climbers. Going up and down using just a rope is what they(we) do.
the right kit and knowing how to use it keeps you alive, mistakes can be serious and have really nasty consequences.
A knotted rope of any sort will make a steep slope seem safer, it is all about where you draw that line and move on to using the rope for movement, not just security. That is when you need to aquire some skills.
Have fun, be safe, not always in that order !
cavers are deffo better at ropework than most climbers. Going up and down using just a rope is what they(we) do.
the right kit and knowing how to use it keeps you alive, mistakes can be serious and have really nasty consequences.
A knotted rope of any sort will make a steep slope seem safer, it is all about where you draw that line and move on to using the rope for movement, not just security. That is when you need to aquire some skills.
Have fun, be safe, not always in that order !
Uilleachan
is right about the difference between cavers and climbers. I've climbed with some right pillocks who really had no idea.
I was one of them once, thought I knew my ropes, was solo climbing, got things very slightly wrong. A small fall of about 30ft left me with an ankle and foot that still hurts when I walk, nearly 30years later.
is right about the difference between cavers and climbers. I've climbed with some right pillocks who really had no idea.
I was one of them once, thought I knew my ropes, was solo climbing, got things very slightly wrong. A small fall of about 30ft left me with an ankle and foot that still hurts when I walk, nearly 30years later.
I'd say you were right with some of the rock-jocks from the local climbing gym but the majority of trad climbers I climbed with were pretty analy pedantic when it came to safety. I carried that over into my tree surgery work too. It's one of the reasons I've been shying away from offering the OP advice as they're so many variables to account for in a short message and poor advice is deadly advice. Something I had to be carefull of teaching and selling climbing kit.
If the OP can join a group as advised it would be great, failing that unless you have some good gear and the skills then walk around the slope. And please stay away from the paracord brigade as they're either ill informed, reckless or just plain dangerous - I'll leave it up to you to pick one.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
I think the main difference between cavers and climbers, is that cavers are more familiar with dedicated devices and their use across multiple applications and they practice, climbers (those that have made a point of actually learning some rope work beyond belaying and placing protection) tend to be more familiar with improvised methods, most practiced SRT cavers would be familiar with those too (prusik, french prusik, bachman, klemheist and garda or alpine clutch, the 5 basic improvised autoblocs).
Has to be said, the best technical non professional rope people I've come across were cave rescue people, but as mentioned above cavers practice and some are almost anal about doing so. That makes them good people to learn from.
I'm from a climbing background too and have spent the last 30+ years working in a related field, from steep hills to atmospheric space, but it must be said, I've learned much along the way and the most valuable lessons, those I didn't teach myself, were learned from old caving books and SRT (although we added another rope, so it's now really DRT) that said, Bill March's "Modern Rope Techniques in Mountaineering" will always have a special place on my shelf and in my heart.
DO NOT USE PARACORD OR 2-3mm DYNEEMA UNDER ANY CIRCUMSATNCES FOR DESCENDING/ABSEILING OR CLIMBING ANYTHING AT ALL if you value your own life and/or have family that care about you. There are really so many things that can cause a catastrophic failure of such inappropriate thin cord that can lead to injury or death. I am speaking from practical experience in the field not theory. Its not often understood by inexperienced people that there are many important things apart from the actual strength of rope/cord (and neither of the above are strong enough anyway):- thin cord has very little abrasion resistance and if it rubs against a rock or trees/branches as you descend it can break very easily --- paracord and dyneema have a very low melting point and if they rub together they can quickly and easily melt and break --- very thin cord is extremely painful and difficult, if not impossible to hold when it takes your weight (try lifting yourself off the ground just a few inches with paracord in your hands and see how many seconds you last before you cant stand the pain, even if you actually mange to lift yourself off the ground you probably wont last five seconds) and remember rope/cord is always much thinner when it has weight on it compared to when it doesnt --- there are many dangerous aspects of using such inappropriate thin cord such as correct choice of knot (some knots weaken cord by 50%) and understanding the stresses anchors and angles can place on rope and the importance of not having slack in the rope which causes shock-loading, and the ground is relevant too, sloping grass and dirt or loose ground can sometimes be more dangerous than bare rock, even slightly damp grass can be treacherous on sloping ground (scenario:- you slip on damp grass or loose ground, thin cord takes your weight, if it doesnt break which it might thin cord digs in to your hands and becomes very painful, you cant stand the pain and loose the thin cord, you plunge off the slope to possible injury or death) --- and dont dismiss the 20 foot drop you mentioned as being not high enough to cause concern, I once had to rescue a person that fell only 10 foot but suffered a fractured skull and a broken shoulder and arm. Far too many people think a rope alone will save them without having the necessary ropework skills, the rescue services are kept busy by such people.
By the way, if it is unsafe to descend without a rope safely how do you intend to climb back up again, SAFELY ?
I have only one piece of advice, if a rope is needed to descend an unsafe slope and you have neither the proper equipment or skills then walk around no matter how long the detour is --- if you are considering doing any kind of descending/abseiling/climbing in the future with ropes then take proper tuition first from a caving/climbing instructor.
There has been a few threads about using dangerously unsuitable thin cord for descending/abseiling which is quite concerning, the vid Quixoticgeek mentions above is one of the most irresponsible videos I have ever seen showing lots of very dangerous practice and should be struck off the forum. It horrifies me to think a youngster could watch that vid and try to copy it.
There has been a few threads about using dangerously unsuitable thin cord for descending/abseiling which is quite concerning, the vid Quixoticgeek mentions above is one of the most irresponsible videos I have ever seen showing lots of very dangerous practice and should be struck off the forum. It horrifies me to think a youngster could watch that vid and try to copy it.
I agree with Joonsy - that video will give me nightmares................Any cord that thin, however strong, is gonna really bite you hard and seriously spoil your future in even the most minor of mishaps.
I agree with Joonsy - that video will give me nightmares................Any cord that thin, however strong, is gonna really bite you hard and seriously spoil your future in even the most minor of mishaps.
Please note, whilst I link to the video, I do so without comment or judgement. The creator of it is a forum member, and I suggest that all comments should be directed at her.
For those who feel willing to offer an answer, I have one question: What is the thinnest rope you would use to descend a slope? Ignoring the ascending side of the equation for now. Does your answer change if you're using an Italian Hitch, or a figure 8, or a petzl stop?
J - Caver, Climber, Rope geek, scared of heights.
For those who feel willing to offer an answer, I have one question: What is the thinnest rope you would use to descend a slope? Ignoring the ascending side of the equation for now. Does your answer change if you're using an Italian Hitch, or a figure 8, or a petzl stop?
J - Caver, Climber, Rope geek, scared of heights.
There are various techniques for ascending/descending and I've used a fair few of them.
Nowadays I have an 11mm rope and a variation of a figure of 8 ( DMM Anka) which suites my fast plummet method of descending off the local viaduct and Petzl ascenders.
Yeah, its not right "Bushcraft" but meh, it works a treat.
Nowadays I have an 11mm rope and a variation of a figure of 8 ( DMM Anka) which suites my fast plummet method of descending off the local viaduct and Petzl ascenders.
Yeah, its not right "Bushcraft" but meh, it works a treat.
Don't screw around with string. Your rope may become the life-saver for somebody with no more than a piece of string.
Forget about yourself. What can you contribute to a rescue before the SAR people arrive?
Consider carrying 50m of 11mm a necessity for any instance where protection might become an issue.
Only the fools will laugh at you and you will learn very quickly who they are.
Do a course. Learn the rope. Learn the belays. The day may come when you need those skills more than food.
Forget about yourself. What can you contribute to a rescue before the SAR people arrive?
Consider carrying 50m of 11mm a necessity for any instance where protection might become an issue.
Only the fools will laugh at you and you will learn very quickly who they are.
Do a course. Learn the rope. Learn the belays. The day may come when you need those skills more than food.
Provided your not using the rope to hold your weight, it as Ross's post below. The rest of his post is spot on too.
A proper rope then is minimum half for descent and full, for climbing. Semi static, then MBL of 22kN is as low as one should go. All the devices and knots mentioned, iti 8 n' stop, all work differently. The stop is fixed in it's range of 9 to 12mm, and is designed for use on semi static, it will of course work with dynamic but on longer drops due to the elongation of the rope it's best to avoid the lower diameters, the inclusion of a break crab will assist in generating extra friction of course. Like wise the Fig 8 can be used upside down when used with thiner rope diameters and an Italian can be used with doubled crabs.
For those devices and methods then, an 8mm half rope is a bit too thin for a stop but would work with an upturned 8 or double crabbed Italian hitch, that last one isn't for the faint hearted though.
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Some sound advice here but by far the best is to not to try and do this without first getting hands on tuition and some practical exoerience under the watch of an exoert. Iam based in Sheffield, climbed for around 30 years and a guide. If youre ever around these parts, let me know and i would be happy to give you a few hours free tuition....well, i say free, i may need a beer afterwards.
