Changing attitudes about firearms

[BigShot]

And now I *really * disagree with you.

The UK is an excellent place to live, a brilliant place to wander, full of interesting and genuinely caring people, a good place to make a good life.

I'm sorry you are so down on it, but most of us are quite fond of the place.

Tieing your disgruntlement into the handguns issue is unfair. Tempted to say don't let the door hit you on the backside as you go

cheers,
Toddy

'course it's a good place - why the heck do you think I've been arguing so hard? It's because I like it and want to see the best for it.

Tell me, what part of your objections to handguns in the UK - escalation of violence, increased injury to those attacked with one instead of a knife, having them stolen and used against the innocent and so on - have any grounding in something that is GOOD about the UK?
Is it not the case that every one of those problems is entirely down to the minority of scumbags who work their hardest to ruin things for others?

You disagree with something I've not actually said.

The only thing I dislike about Britain itself right now - is that the lakes are forecast gales over the weekend which has scuppered my plans to head up and camp out by a tarn.

The issues I have with lack of liberty and further erosion of the same are to do with the way it is run by the ruling class - not the place and not the vast majority of the people who are, on the whole, decent.

 

[BorderReiver]

Most of the anti gun sentiment is down to the meeja's hysterical reporting. The laughing morons are just a symptom of the way people can't think for themselves any more.

I was given my first air rifle when I was seven and I've had firearms of one type or other since 1972. When I lost my handguns after Dunblane I used the compensation to buy a .357 Winchester Legacy; a Browning .22 rifle and a .45 BP pistol.

There is nothing wrong in owning and using firearms for recreation and/or obtaining food and I'm damned if I'm going to let a hysterical public deprive me of my legitimate pastime.

 

[Toddy]

And there I agree with you, but see all that anger? that's what really makes folks wary of seeing handgun licences reintroduced. Mix the two and it's just not going to happen.

cheers,
M

 

[traderran]

I believe I have said all I need to on this subject so I Will ride
off into the sunset and bigger an better things.

PS Toddy I have been to your fare country. never could get over the warm beer.

So Mescal for my men an beer for my horses

 

[Toddy]

Ah good ale, now there's good stuff, and real cider, sweet and a bite and rich in the mouth.
Not something bitter with no flavour and just ice lolly like.

I thought the worm was in the tequila, we don't make that here........I'm told worms ought to be fried, then they are like bacon

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BigShot]

No worms in Tequila.

Ale is another reason I'd rather the UK was fixed than me leave - you just can't get a proper beer anywhere else!

Well - there is one microbrewery called MBC on the edge of Chamonix town centre (French alps) which does some cracking beers...
...but apart from that....

 

[mjk123]

>>>>Originally Posted by mjk123
>>>>Same question for Switzerland, where I can confirm that peace reigns supreme, despite there being arms available. But I'd like to stress that the reason for low crime (both violent and non-violent) has nothing to do with potential criminals fearing getting shot. The low crime rate stems from a more egalitarian society that other countries. Basically, people don't _want_ to shoot each other. And there's no cultural imperative to resort to violence to solve your problems.


>>It's far beyond fear of being shot.
In Switzerland - both as foreign and home policy - the ideal is not to rely on others for your safety.
>>It is more egalitarian than many - and that comes from many sources including the prolific presence of privately owned guns.


You must be joking. For 50 years Switzerland relied upon NATO to act as a buffer zone. Defend itself? You must be kidding. For example, right last week there was a parliamentary debate about how to protect Swiss registered vessels from African piracy. The best idea they came up with? Make some kind of token contribution to an EU task force. Go it alone? No way.

And the weapons at home _aren't_ privately owned; they're owned by the military. You just get to look after them. If you break the seal on the ammo you're in deep poo-poo. Same if you threaten anyone with it. I would tend to agree that being obliged to maintain and use a weapon makes people more sensitised to the dangers of firearms, and hence makes them more responsible. But even without any guns Switzerland would still have a low crime rate.

 

[traderran]

Ah good ale, now there's good stuff, and real cider, sweet and a bite and rich in the mouth.
Not something bitter with no flavour and just ice lolly like.

I thought the worm was in the tequila, we don't make that here........I'm told worms ought to be fried, then they are like bacon

cheers,
Toddy

HEHE typing to fast my hands are better with a rope.
and yes the worm is in the Tequila. as far as good stuff.
You need to try mescal there is a drink food of the gods.
if i could I would send you a bottle but it dozent travel well.
what we drink is made hear.

But warm beer just not civilized

 

[C_Claycomb]

Warm beer, from the perspective of a Texas summer, might not seem a good idea, but remember that in the UK if we get a summer with three consecutive days over 80degF it is some kind of record!

The only really good reason to chill beer is if you don't want to have to taste it!

 

[BorderReiver]

I firmly believe that unless it can be demonstrated that there has been no change, that is, no increase in gun crime post the handgun ban, then there is no justification for restoring licences.

Not a decrease, since that would prove the ban was effective.
Not an increase since the apparant justification then for the restoration would be an American defence model........and we have never had that here, even during wartime we did not have an armed population. A legally armed population is not going to be approved.
Simple no change post ban is the only way that attitudes will change.


.......and the police had already raised concerns about their behaviour and the clubs did nothing. Thomas Hamilton stored the guns and ammunition he used to kill those infants in the club locker.
That's what the public sees, that's the opinion that would need to be changed to create a climate that would allow for any restoration of licences for handguns.



cheers,
Toddy

The armed defence argument is a non starter Toddy. All that is asked for is a restoration of the previous regulations for sporting purposes, not the right to walk around with a Dessert Eagle in one's pocket.

The Police are responsible for controlling firearms ownership, not the clubs. If the Police allow a person to hold an FAC then the club has no grounds to withhold facilities. It is interesting that evidence relating to Police involvement in the Dunblane tragedy is under wraps for 100 years. Could it be that they failed miserably to do their job and "public confidence in the Police would suffer"?

BTW, due to my inability to hold my BP pistol straight due to my Ankylosing Spondiltis at the moment, I have not been to my club for about a year. This week my local firearms bod wrote to me and asked why I had not attended. So at least they have tightened up on procedure.

 

[Oblio13]

I had to go to work for a couple days, and am pleasantly surprised to see that the thread hasn't been locked yet. Did you guys miss me? Well??

... Handguns have no place within a civilized urban society....

Actually, that's where defensive handguns have their greatest utility. Rural and/or uncivilized calls for rifles.

... we have never had that here, even during wartime we did not have an armed population....

When it looked like Germany was going to invade England, there was a huge drive in America to collect private arms and send them over.

... What about the men that get raped....

Is that a big problem in the UK? Because I just found out that I'll be laying over in London at the end of the month. Do you, ah, have any ... phone numbers?

Speaking of my layover, anyone want to come out and play? I promise not to shoot you.

 

[Toddy]

It's been quiet

No, the UK has no history of a firearmed population, even during wartime. My father was a Section Officer with the Fire Service and even he had to be licenced to carry a pistol .......he emptied it at a wave of bombers headed to Clydebank, said he'd have given anything for a 303 right then.

No idea what happened to the Ameican pistols Not handed out to the populace anyway.

Different civilizations

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

Shows how naive I can be, I didn't know men could be raped until a few years ago, and I don't hear that it's a growing issue here, so I reckon you're probably safe enough.

Toddy

 

[Toddy]

The armed defence argument is a non starter Toddy. All that is asked for is a restoration of the previous regulations for sporting purposes, not the right to walk around with a Dessert Eagle in one's pocket.

The Police are responsible for controlling firearms ownership, not the clubs. If the Police allow a person to hold an FAC then the club has no grounds to withhold facilities. It is interesting that evidence relating to Police involvement in the Dunblane tragedy is under wraps for 100 years. Could it be that they failed miserably to do their job and "public confidence in the Police would suffer"?

BTW, due to my inability to hold my BP pistol straight due to my Ankylosing Spondiltis at the moment, I have not been to my club for about a year. This week my local firearms bod wrote to me and asked why I had not attended. So at least they have tightened up on procedure.

If the gun club had rescind a membership though then the safe storage of a firearm becomes a greater concern and the police will check. I was told that if the club had done so to Thomas Hamilton he would not have had the number of weapons he did, and might have had his licence removed.

I wonder if the gun lobby split the issue...........sport vs defensive carry........I could see a limited handgun licence for that being acceptable to a lot of folks, especially with the interest in airsoft and paintballing.
They'll never go for it though, they just angrily demand *rights*

Sorry to hear of the AS, hope things improve, and it's good to hear the club are being proactive

cheers,
M

 

[Oblio13]

... No, the UK has no history of a firearmed population, even during wartime....

A little Googling seems to indicate that the UK was very well armed until a series of disarmament acts after the first world war, when pacifism became a trend because of the horrendous casualties of "the lost generation".

 

[Toddy]

The UK is the world's first Industrialised nation. It was the first nation to upset the rural / urban population balance, and this happened long before WW 1.
In Scotland we are arguably the most urbanised nation in the Western World. (rapidly
becoming the first Post Industrialised too, but that's a whole other story )

The urban population was never universally armed. Guns are and were expensive. Few folks had the money for something so expensive and so utterly useless in their lives. Whatever google said is in error if that is not the conclusion that you reached.

Sorry to be quite so pedantic about it, but my degree profile is heavily biased towards Scottish and UK social history.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Pict]

In an effort to inject a little positive and practical information into this thread, after spending 12 years of my life in a very high-crime environment one solution that is very effective is the flashlight. Not your run-of the mill AA light but a 120 Lumen (or better) tactical flashlight.

There are no laws anywhere in the world against carrying such a light and they can even travel with you in the plane. There are no laws against shining it in someone's eyes who is approaching you in the dark either. The light causes no permanent damage but will temporarily (for a minute or so) blind anyone whose eyes were adjusted to the dark.

Lighting up someone will do several things at once. It gives you a good solid look at them enabling you to identify them later, dress, face, everything, and they know it. It allows you to see your immediate surroundings and make your way out to a safer place. It makes the other person too blind to follow or be effectively aggressive if that was his plan. It is obnoxious of you certainly, but it isn't against the law. If you are dead wrong about the other person, no harm, no foul. If you are right you have a few serious advantages that could help. The alternative is to be in the dark in a dark place with an unidentified person you can't see or determine what he's up to. I like my light and carry it often in Brazil. Mac

Edited to Add - Flashlight = Torch

 

[BorderReiver]

The UK is the world's first Industrialised nation. It was the first nation to upset the rural / urban population balance, and this happened long before WW 1.
In Scotland we are arguably the most urbanised nation in the Western World. (rapidly
becoming the first Post Industrialised too, but that's a whole other story )

The urban population was never universally armed. Guns are and were expensive. Few folks had the money for something so expensive and so utterly useless in their lives. Whatever google said is in error if that is not the conclusion that you reached.

Sorry to be quite so pedantic about it, but my degree profile is heavily biased towards Scottish and UK social history.

cheers,
Toddy

It does seem daft to spend hundreds of pounds to make holes in paper.

 

[korvin karbon]

having a high powered torch is handy, when i was a senior crowd control technician, specialising in physical disturbance ( ie bouncer) i always had a torch, was handy when jumping round a corner and confronting ejits who were partaking in acts deemed un acceptable by the police and club manager. Also damn handy when you use the torch as a kermbit.

 

[Oblio13]

having a high powered torch is handy, when i was a senior crowd control technician, specialising in physical disturbance ( ie bouncer) i always had a torch, was handy when jumping round a corner and confronting ejits who were partaking in acts deemed un acceptable by the police and club manager. Also damn handy when you use the torch as a kermbit.

Another surprisingly effective improvised weapon when you see it demonstrated by someone knowledgeable is a tightly-rolled magazine. No wonder all my passengers have those National Geographics and Vogues...

By the way, you'd probably be amazed at how many concealed handguns are on airline flights these days. The record for one of my flights is 17, when I was flying into the city hosting the last Democratic national convention. The only time I've ever heard about one actually being used was in Miami a couple years ago, when a fellow claimed he had a bomb. A couple friends were crewmembers on that flight. He was shot at 7 times by two air marshals, with 6 hits. There's still a dent in the jetbridge at terminal D from the miss.