Changing attitudes about firearms

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*Heavy sigh*
Well, my friend, I don't see what more to say to you. You have it your way. All I can say is that, at the very least, you should move out of Man(Gun)chester and live somewhere else. Maybe you should emigrate to America - I think you'd be better off there. Seriously.
This discussion is now spinning in circles. It's been fun, frequently infuriating, necessary, but ultimately futile. Though still fun. I'm now dropping out. No, seriously, I am...
I mean it though - leave Manchester. It's not doing you any good. If it's that bad let them fight, shoot, kill and ruin each other. Don't let it poison you if it's that bad. If.

It certainly has been.

I'd love to leave, but unfortunately I have very strong ties here with family - and they won't be leaving in a hurry.

I'm a really light and easy going person (believe it or not) and this place isn't rotting me - I just have a very deep dislike for things that remove individual liberty - and that includes the liberty to defend yourself and your property.

My main objections to Manchester (apart from the scumbags) are lack of big mountains (I used to live at the foot of Mont Blanc), wide open spaces (thought the lakes, peaks and north wales aren't too far) and hunting lands I can get acces too! :p

It has been an ace debate - I have learned a few things (overreliance on stats for one - when it really isn't as necessary as I made it to some of my argument in this thread)


Thanks.

Oh - and you're wrong!
Now someone lock the thread quickly so that can be the last word.
Haha.
 

traderran

Settler
May 6, 2007
571
0
73
TEXAS USA
It certainly has been.

I'd love to leave, but unfortunately I have very strong ties here with family - and they won't be leaving in a hurry.

I'm a really light and easy going person (believe it or not) and this place isn't rotting me - I just have a very deep dislike for things that remove individual liberty - and that includes the liberty to defend yourself and your property.

My main objections to Manchester (apart from the scumbags) are lack of big mountains (I used to live at the foot of Mont Blanc), wide open spaces (thought the lakes, peaks and north wales aren't too far) and hunting lands I can get acces too! :p

It has been an ace debate - I have learned a few things (overreliance on stats for one - when it really isn't as necessary as I made it to some of my argument in this thread)


Thanks.

Oh - and you're wrong!
Now someone lock the thread quickly so that can be the last word.
Haha.
hello you sound like our kind come on over to Texas you will be welcome.
 
You think so?
Even with the chance of being shot millions of americans attack and assult their fellows (2.4 million). Half a million end up being treated by emergency department or hospitals 40% put there by family members.
Even with the risk of gun play, people don't stop. It's Not working really is it? if you are honest, you have to say it's not working.

You say that - but the stats show the figures falling.
It really is working.

If it doesn't work, please tell me why after FL introduced "shall issue", and it failed (not that it did) did a further 39 states introduce similar legislation?

If it doesn't work, why do Switzerland and Israel have some of the lowest rates of violent crime you'll find?

If, on the other hand, gun control does work...
Explain why in 1997 after Australia passed new gun laws:
Homicide rose 3.2% Robbery rose 44% Assaults rose 8.6% and in Victoria homicide rose by 300%

Explain why after 1997 when the UK banned the private sale and ownership of handguns, violent crimes (including homicide) involving firearms rose from 394 incidents in 2000 (can't find stats prior to that, but "gun crime" [including non-violent] follows a similar trend from 1997) to 819 incidents in 2007 with a peak of 1046 in 2006. At peak that's an increase of over 250%.
Home Office Statistical Bulletin 03/08 - Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07 (Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2006/07)
Despite firearms offences falling between 1993 and 1997.


Really - gun control is a failed experiment and it's about time we threw it out.
 

durulz

Need to contact Admin...
Jun 9, 2008
1,755
1
Elsewhere
It certainly has been.

I'd love to leave, but unfortunately I have very strong ties here with family - and they won't be leaving in a hurry.

I'm a really light and easy going person (believe it or not) and this place isn't rotting me - I just have a very deep dislike for things that remove individual liberty - and that includes the liberty to defend yourself and your property.

My main objections to Manchester (apart from the scumbags) are lack of big mountains (I used to live at the foot of Mont Blanc), wide open spaces (thought the lakes, peaks and north wales aren't too far) and hunting lands I can get acces too! :p

It has been an ace debate - I have learned a few things (overreliance on stats for one - when it really isn't as necessary as I made it to some of my argument in this thread)


Thanks.

Oh - and you're wrong!
Now someone lock the thread quickly so that can be the last word.
Haha.

Well, I hope you can talk your family into leaving. Anyway.
Look, no offence for anything. If we ever meet (extremely unlikely) I'll happily buy you a pint (but won't happily agree to your defense of guns).
NOW lock it - so I had the last word.
 
hello you sound like our kind come on over to Texas you will be welcome.

Haha.
I'll wait and see what happens in the next 5 years if it's all the same to you. ;)

There's also the issue of my family - I wouldn't want to leave them.
There's also the issue of my girlfriend - I wouldn't want to leave her and she wouldn't want to leave her family either.

Basically - I'm here to stay for a while at least.
 
Well, I hope you can talk your family into leaving. Anyway.
Look, no offence for anything. If we ever meet (extremely unlikely) I'll happily buy you a pint (but won't happily agree to your defense of guns).
NOW lock it - so I had the last word.
No last word I'm afraid - haha.
(No need to lock either)

No offence taken - I've got very thick skin even if offence was meant.
And I don't think it was - it's an emotive subject.

I reckon we'd get on pretty well actually - "last words" and the likes - probably got a pretty similar sense of humour (and both have a pig headded passion to argu our corner - come to think about it - most of my friends are just like that - we row plenty - haha)


Oh - and I consider it a defence of far more than just guns.
I have a defence for freedom - including the freedom for people to do many things I don't like.
 

Pict

Settler
Jan 2, 2005
611
0
Central Brazil
clearblogs.com
Yes, because those means of defence could also be turned to attack by someone.
Attack by someone who has taken the weapon off someone. Attack by someone legitimately possessing a firearm and in a fit of pique drawing it as a weapon.

You have a very dewy-eyed sentimentality about the benefits of legalising firearms. You're right, of course, if someone REALLY wants a handgun, legal or not, then they will get one.
However.
By making firearms legal then they become EASIER to get. Yes yes yes - criminals can get guns already. But they're not that prolific (in the UK) yet (anyone reading this who has experience of gun crime - real or imitation - please speak up. Unlike our American friends - who have already illustrated how they have experienced gun crime in their gun-rich country). Gun crimes DO happen. Some of the crimes are by people wielding imitation firearms. Which carries as stiff a sentence as a real firearm offence. So presumably they could not get their hands on real firearms. If made legal that would by necessity change - after all, they are easier to obtain. That is a self-evident truth: guns are legal, therefore easier to obtain.
By controlling gun availability it clearly becomes more difficult for a criminal to possess a gun (remember, I am talking about the UK).
The US has looser gun ownership laws. And yet they still have a higer, per capita, incident of firearm offences than the UK (I can't be bothered quoting a source. You will inevitably refute it, believing your source to be more reliable. Odd that). So much so, that US residents feel the need to carry firearms on a regular basis (if there was no threat, after all, there would be no need to defend against it). Equally so, the US has capital punishment - supposedly a deterent against serious crime. And yet those same serious crimes continue. Not much of a deterent. And neither, therefore, are armed civilians.
If your cause is to stop crime, then you seem to be coming at it from the wrong direction. Rather than put a plaster on the wound, why not try to heal the infection?
If your cause is to exact retribution on criminals...well, that doesn't sound like morality to me - that's just looking for public permission to kill. Not many morals to that.

Since you are commenting much on my society, as a member of it I'll respond.

My life was saved by a legally owned and carried handgun.

I was solo backpacking and two guys armed with knives tried to jump me. Believe it or not in a nation where ammunition is apparently sold in gumball machines (according to UK perception), criminals still use knives. In this case as they rushed me I turned and they RADAR LOCKED on my holstered handgun and froze. I did not have to draw the gun to stop them, but I was really, really close. They tried to laugh it off as “just trying to scare me”. If I hadn’t been armed or had been carrying concealed (open carry is legal here) I would have been under the threat of death or serious bodily injury at their whim. As a law abiding US citizen I don’t have to give them that option if I choose not to.

I got my first carry permit back in 1989 after a neighbor was beaten to death a few blocks from my home. He was trying to parallel park and got on the nerves of three guys trying to drive down the street. This man’s wife watched in horror as they beat him to death with a pick handle and he tried to fend off the blows with a trash can lid. They had been married a year, just like me at the time. She is still a widow, they are still in prison, and he is still dead.

In my case, the idiots who tried to attack me are still out there, hopefully a little wiser, I am now a happily married father of three, my oldest will be going to college next year. In 98% of civilian defensive gun uses the gun is not fired. Its sudden presence is a “game changer” that causes criminals to quickly go to plan “B”, exit stage right. The overwhelming numbers of such incidents never make it into the police reports let alone the paper, technically they are non-events.

To legally employ lethal force in the US there must be three conditions…

#1. Ability – The aggressor must have the ability or means to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

#2. Intent – The aggressor must display by actions or words the intent or determination to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

#3. Proximity – The aggressor must be close enough to inflict death or grave bodily injury with the means he has.

These three conditions are subject to the “reasonable man” standard, would a reasonable person interpret the actions of the aggressor as such to cause death or grave bodily injury. Given those circumstances defense is moral and the citizen has every right to defend himself using whatever means necessary. In many cases of self defense the district attorney has the power to make the determination if those conditions were present and no charges are filed.

Here in PA there are severe penalties for carrying a gun without a permit and using a gun in the commission of a crime nets you five years mandatory sentence for each use. As a vetted law-abider I have the right according to state law to be armed, concealed, with any handgun I own anywhere in my state, at any time, for any reason. My permit is recognized in 28 other states. Our permits are good for five years and cost $25.
Carrying (or even owning) a gun is a huge responsibility not to be taken lightly. It doesn’t make you safe, it merely makes you armed, but sometimes that’s a good thing. Mac
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
An interesting, if repetitive, debate.

At the end of the day, this is the UK, not America, not Switzerland, not Japan or Norway. The UK in 2009.
Different people, differnet countries, different cultures, different expectations and social issues.

Funny how a topic on changing attitudes in America to gun ownership became a debate on the handgun ban here.
I wonder if the increased vociferousness of the gun owning 'rights' proponants there is a response to the perception that their rights are under threat ?

Funny old world :)

cheers,
Toddy
 

Pict

Settler
Jan 2, 2005
611
0
Central Brazil
clearblogs.com
I'm going to be good now and go post a bushcrafty post. Mac

Toddy,

We are a vociferous people on just about every topic, world opinion of us is usually spot on. BTW "Rights" doesn't need to be in "quotes" anymore as the supreme court has finally determined that individual gun ownership is a right, DC vs Heller.
 

traderran

Settler
May 6, 2007
571
0
73
TEXAS USA
Haha.
I'll wait and see what happens in the next 5 years if it's all the same to you. ;)

There's also the issue of my family - I wouldn't want to leave them.
There's also the issue of my girlfriend - I wouldn't want to leave her and she wouldn't want to leave her family either.

Basically - I'm here to stay for a while at least.
Don,t worry about the next 5 years things overhear seem to work them selves out.

So as an Immortal once said Come to TEXAS where Men are Men and the women are glad of it. also the best Tequila and mescal in the world.

PS your girlfriend will love it my wife is from Scotland and a Highlander
And she loves it. Met her in south Africa and tuck her to Texas
 

traderran

Settler
May 6, 2007
571
0
73
TEXAS USA
An interesting, if repetitive, debate.

At the end of the day, this is the UK, not America, not Switzerland, not Japan or Norway. The UK in 2009.
Different people, differnet countries, different cultures, different expectations and social issues.

Funny how a topic on changing attitudes in America to gun ownership became a debate on the handgun ban here.
I wonder if the increased vociferousness of the gun owning 'rights' proponants there is a response to the perception that their rights are under threat ?

Funny old world :)

cheers,
Toddy
When Texans give up there guns it will be 6 ft of snow in he$$
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
Ah , so blizzards are forecast :D

Pict, I used the hyperbole for emphasis, not dubiety........probably ought to have used asterisks for clarity.

cheers,
Toddy
 

mjk123

Need to contact Admin...
Jul 24, 2006
187
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>>If it doesn't work, why do Switzerland and Israel have some of the lowest rates of violent crime you'll find?

Interesting that you quote Israel as a paragon of peaceful living. But I guess what you meant was that Israelis aren't shooting other Israelis, despite everybody being theoretically tooled up.

Same question for Switzerland, where I can confirm that peace reigns supreme, despite there being arms available. But I'd like to stress that the reason for low crime (both violent and non-violent) has nothing to do with potential criminals fearing getting shot. The low crime rate stems from a more egalitarian society that other countries. Basically, people don't _want_ to shoot each other. And there's no cultural imperative to resort to violence to solve your problems.
 
traderran.

I was chatting to my girlfriend about leaving Manchester just last week. She said she wouldn't want to be much more than a couple of hours drive away from her family.
I'm as close to mine as she is to hers, but mine is already moveing around - sister (and soon brother) down to London which is a whole country away from here. (Or in texan terms, the same as the distance from the centre of Austin to the centre of Frot Worth - funny how scales are different there) and my folks will be off to Ireland and Spain a lot once they retire - so I'd be free to roam.

Unless we break up or some tragedy befalls us - we'll probably be staying put.


Toddy said:
At the end of the day, this is the UK, not America, not Switzerland, not Japan or Norway. The UK in 2009.
Different people, differnet countries, different cultures, different expectations and social issues.
The funny thing I've noticed more and more the more I travel and live in different places for a time - is that people, no matter where you go, are basically the same.
There's really not much difference between an Israeli Jew, a Swiss national, a Brit, a Yank, an Irish and so on.
The only differences I see are differences in the societies - and all the significant differences come from one thing and one thing alone. How much freedom and personal responsibility do they have?

From all the places I've visited and people I've met - freedom seems to be the one thing that makes places better than others.
The only real social difference between the UK and countries like the USA, Switzerland, Israel and so on - is the attitude people take to their own safety and security (and I use the word security in the broadest possible terms)
Here we snuggle up to the government for protection from the bad people (and - interestingly - don't get much more than further intrustions on our freedom to live our own lives our own way) while the bad people ignore all the restrictions we accept for "safety".
In those other places people take full responsibility for themselves.
A big difference.
 
Same question for Switzerland, where I can confirm that peace reigns supreme, despite there being arms available. But I'd like to stress that the reason for low crime (both violent and non-violent) has nothing to do with potential criminals fearing getting shot. The low crime rate stems from a more egalitarian society that other countries. Basically, people don't _want_ to shoot each other. And there's no cultural imperative to resort to violence to solve your problems.
It's far beyond fear of being shot.
In Switzerland - both as foreign and home policy - the ideal is not to rely on others for your safety.
It is more egalitarian than many - and that comes from many sources including the prolific presence of privately owned guns.

People don't agree about everything, sometimes they disagree, argue and fight. But - despite the fears of those who would rather see prohibition than legal ownership and carry - there is no escalation of violence when things do get messy (and they do).

Guns are not the problem - lack of freedom, lack of personal responsibility and lack of serious consequences all contribute to the violent nature of British society - and the freedom to arm one's self is one part of turning that around.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
You remember those knife scars I mentioned ? Imagine they were bullet wounds. I can show you fifty men under thirty with scarred faces within five minutes of where I work. Imagine they were gun wounds......there wouldn't be fifty living men.

Different cultures. I really don't think ours needs handguns in the mix. And, all that's needed to really push the ban on airguns is another numpty firing at something else and hitting a child :( Screaming banner headlines, rabid reporting and a thoroughly fed up majority and that ban will be on the statute books so fast the ink will burn.

Rational, calm discourse, educational initiatives, non comparisons with entirely different cultures, focus on the UK issues; all this would help.
I don't see it yet, I see angry, demanding, militant attitudes that soften no ones opinion.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds :D Me ? I'm an optimist and I like people. Tbh some of the responses on this thread make me wonder about some of you and the world you live in. Not mine thank all the gods :D

cheers,
Toddy
 
Rational, calm discourse, educational initiatives, non comparisons with entirely different cultures, focus on the UK issues; all this would help.
The reason I mention other cultures, is because that is what we should be aiming for.
The things they have, that we don't, are the keys to solving the problem. We already know that the current way we are doing things in the UK just doesn't work - we need to try a change of tack.

I don't believe we should just give everyone a gun and wait for the smoke to clear. I believe the access to firearms comes as a part of a much larger package. One in which people don't have to rely on the authorities for protection (that can never be granted that way).
One in which predators don't think they have the run of the henhouse with all likely victims unarmed.
And one in which we don't immediately throw out huge babies with drops of bathwater just because the Sun says so.

The only things that could even potentially (and whether or not it would is highly debatable) cause problems if we allowed law abiding people to concealed carry - are all things that are wrong with a minority of people in this country.

Using criminals as a reason to remove freedoms from the vast majority of society is really not a smart approach.

We can (and should) work in 2 main areas.

1> Make people responsible for themselves and empower them as such.
2> Educate and encourage proper behaviour.

1> Is important as it gives people the freedom to protect themselves from the inevitable predators who won't be helped by 2 and protects those who genuinely acted in defence from prosecution brought by their attacker or the crown.
2> Is important because it gets to the root of the problem (and unarmed victims is part of the problem) and works to solve it.

1 and 2 are both issues that need turning around.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
And now I *really * disagree with you.

The UK is an excellent place to live, a brilliant place to wander, full of interesting and genuinely caring people, a good place to make a good life.

I'm sorry you are so down on it, but most of us are quite fond of the place. :D

Tieing your disgruntlement into the handguns issue is unfair. Tempted to say don't let the door hit you on the backside as you go :rolleyes:

cheers,
Toddy
 

traderran

Settler
May 6, 2007
571
0
73
TEXAS USA
traderran.

I was chatting to my girlfriend about leaving Manchester just last week. She said she wouldn't want to be much more than a couple of hours drive away from her family.
I'm as close to mine as she is to hers, but mine is already moveing around - sister (and soon brother) down to London which is a whole country away from here. (Or in texan terms, the same as the distance from the centre of Austin to the centre of Frot Worth - funny how scales are different there) and my folks will be off to Ireland and Spain a lot once they retire - so I'd be free to roam.

Unless we break up or some tragedy befalls us - we'll probably be staying put.
.

I can understand that. But if you feel the need for more elbow room
come on over. Both of my brother in laws immigrated and now live on our ranch with us and you could not get them to go back.
Io give you an ideal of size its 25 miles to the next ranch over and 50 to town. So we live in our own little world. This ranch was started by my great great grandfather. And I was born an raised hear. all of our kids have left to go out into the world. But they will return just as I did if
you ever drink the water you will all ways return.
Have a great one. and remember remember the ALAMO. AN LONG LIVE TEXAS

Whisky for my men an Beer for my horses

Traderran aka the wild west Texan

PS As for the brother in laws. They can now fork a horse use a six gun and ride with the best you could never tell they were from Scotland. The bad part is they are starting to speak
and act like me heven help them some one has to.
 
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