Certificate in Bushcraft Leadership NCFE Level 3 - 1 year instructor course

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Mesquite

It is what it is.
Mar 5, 2008
27,889
2,941
62
~Hemel Hempstead~
this has come up before for me when I was tryingto find a wood for a meet in Essex. I asked if we wold be allowed to use it to practice our skillls pass on any knowledege to each other that we have, they asked what qualifications we have. When I told them known they said no. Why do we need it to do what we want as a hobby. It seems that this is how most popular hobby/sport goes. I have also been taught how to climb and do rope work when I was in the army and have no certificate or qualification so I can't do my hobby at climbing walls unless I show them that. BS if you ask me.

At the end of the day you don't need to have a qualification to pass on skills as a hobby.

But what it boils down to is insurance. If you or your employer want to charge people to come on courses to learn these skills and partake in the activities you have to have insurance in place. That insurance company is going to want to know that the people doing it are competent in what is being taught and have the paperwork or long term personal experience to back it up.

That's what this course is designed to do, to give people the necessary paperwork that's required nowadays.
 

Tiley

Life Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,364
375
60
Gloucestershire
This is an interesting thread. I completed John's course this June and, like others who have contributed to this discussion, I would agree that it is the best thing I have ever done.

I am not now about to rush off and start my own school - I hope to do some freelance work for whoever will offer it to me during the school holidays (I'm a teacher, for my sins...), so there's no danger of me joining the ranks of providers all competing for the interested public's pennies.

As to the purpose of the course, I would say that its first and most important contribution to those who go on it is to give them some of the structure and confidence that they will need to pass on the skills that should have been handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation but weren't. Anyone who has had to stand up in front of a strange but receptive group intending to pass on a series of complex skill sets will know that it is not the easiest of things to do; John's course helps them to do that with greater assurance, thereby enhancing the learning experience of the punter/pupil/disadvantaged person, etc.. During the year, you do cover some of the necessary bits and pieces that need to be considered if you want to set up on your own. What I found more impressive though was the deep, intuitive understanding that the woods in which we all love to "play" need to be very carefully preserved and nurtured so that they are not trashed for the next generation, let alone the next visitor. A healthy respect for our environment is crucial for bushcraft as a whole and it is an integral strand to the NCFE course.

Most folk who do the course are already pretty competent bushcrafters who want to be able to pass on their hobby/enthusiasm more effectively. There is, after all, an interview process to go through before you are offered a place on the course.

As for the need for such a qualification - well, that is a moot point. Unlike climbing, where there is an increasing risk of death or serious injury the further up the grade-ladder you go, bushcraft is relatively safe. So do we in bushcraft need the equivalent of SPA/MIC/IFMGA holders to tell us how to carve, start a fire or build a shelter? Probably not. There are a good number - a huge number - of very talented practitioners out there, running schools and courses, with no formal 'ticket'; what the level 3 course does is show that a certain standard, determined by John Rhyder and the NCFE, has been reached by the holder. It does not mean that that person is therefore 'better' but it does suggest an enthusiasm and a solid skills-base, along with an ability to get across the core skills to clients. This, then, is useful to prospective employers but may also offer a persuasive element to people choosing between two courses, one run by an 'unqualified' person, the other run by a 'qualified' one.

As with climbing, where a huge number of very, very good climbers (Mick Fowler springs to mind) are not qualified guides, so it is with bushcraft. The NCFE Level 3 ticket merely proclaims the holder can instruct pretty well, knows a fair amount about the subject and, most importantly, is passionately enthusiastic about it.

I think I'll shut up now. :eek:
 

sam_acw

Native
Sep 2, 2005
1,081
10
41
Tyneside
It is terribly sad that people think qualification is necessary in bushcraft. If people could look past the commercial end then this wouldn't be a necessary discussion.

Why has this come about? Because of the fashionability and commercialisation of the hobby.
It depresses me that people think regulation will improve anything, rather than making the most primitive of skills less accessable. Lets face it, we live in a world of ever increasing legislation, law and regulation. Can't we get away from it all in the bush still?
 
Accreditation is a double edged sword tbh.
I am both a profesional, working with young people and a volunteer Scout Leader.

I hold the Level 3 Forest School practioner qualification. It took a year of pretty tough work / assignments to complete at a cost of just under a grand.

I now teach / instruct all ages in "forest School" which covers a great deal of the skills we would refer to as Bushcraft.
This qualification allows me to do so in the civillian world. I don't need such a thing for Scouts.

I am also a fully qualified Mountain Leader with years of experience in instructing. In civvy street I am able to lead groups in the UK Mountains in all weathers and to its highest heights where I can camp with them.
In Scouts I needed their own permit to lead a Scout sleep-over in the hall!

I hold many qualifications in the outdoors "field" (pun intended). Some are bits of paper neccessary to allow me to perform a role officially. Others are as a result of my own interests and a desire to gain further experience of particular subjects.

The problems are many however. Particulary in Mountaineering where many people wouldn't consider booking a course with someone who hasn't completed an official qualification scheme. Having gone through the training / assesment procedures I know what's involved in gaining the actual qualifications however there is no re qualification in place. I know people who passed their ML tickets in 1980 that have never subsequently led a group in the hills!
Hardly inspiring or comforting for the student!

I need to provide evidence of Archery sessions instructed to ensure the updating and validity of my Archery qualification but nobody checks them beyond taking my word for it.

The only one I need to continue to prove myself in is my first aid qualifications.

I think people should see qualifications for what they are......bits of paper!

Having completed a period of study and examination is no guarantee of the ability to share wisdom or current ability. How many people could sit and pass their English or Maths exams now after a few years. Worse still, how many people think they could pass their driving test even though they carry out that task most days!

Unfortunately, in the litigous society we live in nowadays that piece of paper can make all the difference.
 

addo

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 8, 2006
2,485
9
Derbyshire
Theres the previous points of requirements for insurace and appliying to work/teach others profesionally, but also I think accredited courses make the instuctor and the student look more closely at how a subject is taught. This can involve furthur research into solving problems and provide more positive well rehearsed ways of appliying a skill.

If that costs no more than a normal course, and the certificate/qualification at the end of it is more widly recognised, surly thats a good thing, if you are planning to spend money on a bushcraft course anyway.

Whos to say which way to do skills, a certain way? Let the well known instuctors get together and work that out maybe, and the feedback from the courses placed on forums ect for all to make there mind up if its being done properly, or not.

Organisations are starting to ask for more info, and random certificates from some companies wont cut it.

As for the hobby, do it which ever way you like.
 

johnboy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 2, 2003
2,258
5
Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
It is terribly sad that people think qualification is necessary in bushcraft. If people could look past the commercial end then this wouldn't be a necessary discussion.

Why has this come about? Because of the fashionability and commercialisation of the hobby.
It depresses me that people think regulation will improve anything, rather than making the most primitive of skills less accessable. Lets face it, we live in a world of ever increasing legislation, law and regulation. Can't we get away from it all in the bush still?

Hi Sam_ACW,

I don't think it's sad.. Most people don't persue Bushcraft for commercial gain but for their own recreation. Any introduction of a qualification framework around instructor competence and assesment will not impact recreational bushcrafters at all. You'll still go out and do your thing in the woods or hills. Meet up with you mates and pass on your skills.

If you want to be a BC instructor currently you have the choice as far as I can see to gain this qualification / certificate or operate without it.

The question really is when and if having a Qualification / certificate becomes a requirement to instruct Bushcraft for commercial gain within the UK.

Bushcraft is a relatively new entrant to the outdoor pursuits arena The growth in the number of commercial bushcraft providers in the UK is quite amazing. I think part of it is fashionability as you say and media exposure of 'bushcraft'.

With a growth in provision of instruction to a wide base of client groups I think it's inevitable that regulation will happen for the Bushcraft 'industry' be it self regulation or imposed.

Currently as far as I can see there is nothing stopping me and my Swanndri setting up a Bushcraft School and running a course regarless of my level of experience or skill. If I was a switched on operator I'd probably get some form of first aid qualification, and perhaps a basic 'outdoor leader' type qualification and perhaps some Risk management training. But there is no requirement for me to have them at all.

I totally agree with other comments that providing bushcraft instruction is somewhat safer than taking a group multipitch rock climbing. However despite the environment being somewhat more benign than a cliff face there is still an element of risk and a duty of care as an instructor to your client group.

If I was new to Bushcraft and looking to take a course and was paying for it. I might reasonably ask is the person providing the instruction competent? What a qualification / certificate tells me in that instance is the person instructing met a prescribed standard.
So I might reasonably take some comfort from that and book myself onto the course.

If I was back in the UK I would likely book myself onto the Woodcraft Course.

Cheers

John
 

Tiley

Life Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,364
375
60
Gloucestershire
Whos to say which way to do skills, a certain way? Let the well known instuctors get together and work that out maybe, and the feedback from the courses placed on forums ect for all to make there mind up if its being done properly, or not.

One of the things that we covered on the course was this idea that there is more than one way to do just about anything and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way. This was particularly useful with something like fire by friction; however, with cutting techniques you do have to be a little more proscriptive!

People will continue to practise bushcraft whether there's a certificate there or not. Some will do it casually and others will approach it with a far greater zeal. At the end of the day, the qualification is, as many others have said, just a piece of paper. It is, inevitably, down to the holder of that sheet of A4 to use it how he/she will.
 

8thsinner

Nomad
Dec 12, 2005
395
1
44
London
I am in two minds about this.
I spent my summer of 2005 working for a company which taught kids a multitude of skills, I attained through this a qualification,TO be honest I can't even remember what it is called right now, it means so little to me.
I taught archery, survival, climbing, air rifle shooting etc etc, numerous qualified instructors were used, all delivering their own paper work proof as standard. Giving me a peace of paper saying I am a qualified instructor, And I shall take fencing as an example.
I had big issues with the instructors at the time both personally and professionally. They were complete upper class arrogant......grrrr who tried to use showing off as a way of displaying superior something or other I don't know. Couldn't teach to save there lives, but did love the sport, I will give them that. but when crossed with a student like myself....raising the issue issue of another sport related to the sword of my own choosing, Iaido as I have been into for many years. Things really started to heat up, challenges of macho bravado which I consider completely devolved quite frankly arose.
Despite all these issues anyway, I still attained a passed qualification.
I still have no interest in teaching this activity on any level.

But my point being with all this, I walked away with several fancy sounding pieces of paper that didn't do a damn thing to help my career in any way. In one case I didn't even care for the skill, but still legally speaking I could have taught anywhere.

A lot of the other skills I am glad to have developed, I take pride in them but I would only do a course such as this one to serve myself. And I wouldn't personally go to a bush school based on someones bit of paper saying they are qualified. I would use places like this to get first hand reports of the ability of a teacher to impart knowledge wisdom and skill in a safe educated and up to date manor.

And on the case of learning for purely personal gain I would love to do this. Taking time out right now is hard enough to try and teach myself any skills. Where as the course gives you a real boost in the potential for personal development. The reviews popping up in this thread probably dont even do the instructors justice.

But I am as it stands currently unemployed, so to answer the original question, I will not be found on this course, unless someone tells me I can get a grant from some college to go and try to pass an interview and take to a career in teaching bush skills or there is a competition which I might stand a chance of winning.

I appologise if I have been a bit long winded on this.
 

Klenchblaize

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 25, 2005
2,610
135
65
Greensand Ridge
You need only look as far as what is now happening with the hitherto voluntary DSC1 (Deer Stalking Certificate level 1) in Scotland to answer this question.

The counter argument to my well-documented abhorrence of such testing is that by 'self policing' (I do not use the latter word without significance) we have the opportunity to influence both the syllabus and direction of those organisations (Government) who may eventually impose mandatory testing. It is is not without possibility is my only comment.

I am not against the idea of formally documenting ones knowledge care of certification if this engenders a sense of pride and achievement nor if such can be restricted to that of safety (one needs a firearm to hunt deer) but rather the suggestion that such is needed in the first place. After all, those that may be considered the least appropriate to be let lose in the backwoods with axe and matches aren't likely to found sitting a Bushcrafters exam either in a Woodlore cabin or whatever accommodation the Home Office might supply.

Oh, and surely you will only pass such an exam if you own a Woodlore knife or can at least demonstrate your name appears on the 15 year waiting list?:lmao:

Cheers!
 

jameswhite

Member
Nov 24, 2006
23
0
53
new forest
i have just seen this thread and as a passing candidate from this years instructor course i have to say i think it was well worth it, a couple of points to remember is that in order to run a school well (if that is what you want to do)it is essential to have the correct insurance. There is really only one company that offers insurance for bushcraft schools and they do ask if you have the proper qualifications when it goes to the underwriters, this has thus allowed me to get full insurance and part with £200 a month for the pleasure. You also get to learn how to teach the subjects, there are many people who know their stuff and have done so for years but are simply unable to impart that knowlege effectivley. You also get to spend a lot of time in the woods and make great friends and contacts, i see mr tiley has replied to this thread and i had the pleasure of attending the course with him and i believe my life is richer for the experiance, that goes for several of my other camp mates! To sum up i think wether the certificate is worth it or not if a paying customer has a choice of 2 schools one with a professionally recognised qualification and full insurance and one with neither i am sure i know which they will pick, not to mention the freelance work i am now able to get at schools and activity groups because of the qualification. For me it was worth every penny and i would reccomend it to all.
 

timboggle

Nomad
Nov 1, 2008
456
8
Hereford, UK
Firstly James and anyone else whose done this well done

Do you actually get a teaching qualification from this course, I can't find any reference to it on the National Database of Accredited Qualifications, perhaps I'm typing in the wrong key word or something, although if I type in Mountain Leader thats listed on the database as an accredited qualification, but nothing listed under 'Bushcraft' .
http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/index.aspx

James, thats a lot of money for your insurance mate, if you mind me asking is that the IOL/JLT package, sounds like it ,as I had the same policy for over 5 years (although I've not done the same course as you), I remember the question about qualifications and the fact that they never actually asked you to provide evidence of qualifications if you ticked the box - anybody could buy the policy, but what would happen if you had to use it !!

There are plenty of other insurers covering Bushcraft, just look a little further - Perkins Slade do a good deal for Mountain Leaders if you can be bothered to fill in all the paperwork and dozens of questions, together with sending evidence of your qualifications and experience.

Good luck with what you plan to do in the future
 

jameswhite

Member
Nov 24, 2006
23
0
53
new forest
Hi, you do not get a recognised "teaching " qualification such as a cert ed however there is a lot of teaching theory and practice that makes up the course and in order to pass you have to provide a certain amount of lesson plans and to have delivered a number of observed lessons and been signed off as well as reviewing your lesson and the teachings of maslow etc. With regard to insurance yes it is with JLT these are the only people i could find to cover all bushcraft activities eg knives fire water cutting burning etc as well as canoeing. You are right they didnt ask to see the evidence of qualification but as you say if you dont have it and need to claim then oops! I should make clear that the premium is £1090 for the year as a school with employeers liability included as i do use outside instructors, i just pay over 6 months so it looked alot. I know as an individual freelance i could have got it for £500 sorry for confusion, it is a really good plan though and seems to be the industry standard. Also thought that as i am now using the forum much more and meeting so many great people i would offer a 30% discount on all our courses to BCUK members so if anyone wants to come and play in the woods in the new forest let me know! www.sunrisebushcraft.com
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,174
1
1,932
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
a couple of points to remember is that in order to run a school well (if that is what you want to do)it is essential to have the correct insurance. There is really only one company that offers insurance for bushcraft schools and they do ask if you have the proper qualifications when it goes to the underwriters, this has thus allowed me to get full insurance and part with £200 a month for the pleasure.

I can't say i agree with this, there's a number of insurers that will cover you and i've little doubt that you can get as good or superior insurance for less money, I may be wrong but I know some very happy bushcraft schools that will not insure as you have.
 

jameswhite

Member
Nov 24, 2006
23
0
53
new forest
all i can say is i spent a massive ammount of time looking and couldnt find them well done to anyone who can! i think that £1000 for £5m public £10m employeers £1m errors and omissions and covering for all things on my policy which is worldwide and really does include everything you can think of is not bad, if ive been ripped off bad luck me! Probably not really an interesting enough subject to get into a debate over though!
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,174
1
1,932
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
Well, you could add most of the schools world wide to that and they'd not come up with many between them. (Answer to Mad ninja Daves post :D)
 

jameswhite

Member
Nov 24, 2006
23
0
53
new forest
one last thing one the subject then i might shut up! the main thing about the course is that it is FANTASTIC fun! i got to spend a week every month in the woods with some of the best people i have ever met many of whome i now work with and will be life long friends, we spent so much time laughing and enjoying practising our skills the if you have the money and can afford it £250 for a weeks course is not bad value! and you get to go every month, its worth it for the fun alone the cert is a bonus.
 

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