Is anyone signed up for the Woodcraft Instructors course?
http://www.woodcraftschool.co.uk/instructor.htm
http://www.woodcraftschool.co.uk/instructor.htm
Certificate in Bushcraft Leadership NCFE Level 3 - 1 year instructor course
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I have mixed feelings about these accreditations. Why is there suddenly a need for a qualification in this hobby? Passing knowledge on I can understand charging for, but this just seems like a way to make money from a persons' hobby. I used to feel that way about the schools though, so maybe this has just taken the schools' place for me!
Regardless, there are instructors out there that have learnt the skills over years, through their own mistakes and experiences. They don't have this qualification yet run their courses well and pass the information on. Are we to assume they are all worthless now because they haven't completed this course?
Not trying to raise an argument over this, just food for thought so please take it as such.
Regardless, there are instructors out there that have learnt the skills over years, through their own mistakes and experiences. They don't have this qualification yet run their courses well and pass the information on. Are we to assume they are all worthless now because they haven't completed this course?
Not trying to raise an argument over this, just food for thought so please take it as such.
Spamel:
I agree, the accreditation is a bit BS.
It would be handy to know what level people who are running courses are trained too, especially as more and more people want to take part in the type of thing.
Trouble is the only way this stuff works is when its government approved and required - lets not go there, they **** up enough thigns that weren't broke yet!
I agree, the accreditation is a bit BS.
It would be handy to know what level people who are running courses are trained too, especially as more and more people want to take part in the type of thing.
Trouble is the only way this stuff works is when its government approved and required - lets not go there, they **** up enough thigns that weren't broke yet!
I'd have to say that it is at the end of the day it is simply a certificate, not a qualification.....they seem to be making some claims about what employment prospects holding this certificate could open up and refer to teaching............'m not so sure myself, possibly it may be of some use as an addition to a teaching qualification, but it would not be viewed as a level3!
Personally I'd rather be learning from a person with 20+yrs experience than a crisp piece of paper, especially when it comes to eating unfamiliar plants!
Smoggy.
Personally I'd rather be learning from a person with 20+yrs experience than a crisp piece of paper, especially when it comes to eating unfamiliar plants!
Smoggy.
Having been taught by those that run the course, and by the alumni I would say that you will come out with an excellent skill set
Can't comment on all instructors on all courses, but what is interesting is that there is apprently nearly 80 schools in the UK teaching some form of "bushcraft" which is nearly 20 more than in all of North America!
Completly agree that there are good instructors out there that haven't completed this program, but I am sure we have all heard some interesting stories of how some schools opperate!
I for one wish I was on the course, but I am not
Can't comment on all instructors on all courses, but what is interesting is that there is apprently nearly 80 schools in the UK teaching some form of "bushcraft" which is nearly 20 more than in all of North America!
Completly agree that there are good instructors out there that haven't completed this program, but I am sure we have all heard some interesting stories of how some schools opperate!
I for one wish I was on the course, but I am not
Do have to say I'm constantly tempted. I've been on several courses at Woodcraft and John and the guys there are first rate. Their knowledge and teaching ability are excellent. I think it's a good way of getting a whole load of teaching for not really that much money.
In fact if they were just that bit closer to me I'd be joining up for next year.
No link, other than being a satisfied student, etc.
This accreditation, in theory, could stop the cowboys jumping on the bushcraft school bandwagon and mean the schools that are running are ran by competent people. That's the theory, but IMO there is more to running a school than just knowing the basic skills and some more advanced stuff. There is a lot of stuff going on in the background that students never even see.
We've all heard horror stories of well known schools running terrible courses, I seem to remember somebody sharing their experiences on one of the red letter day courses ran by a school near Hereford or some such. There is no governing body for the schools, and I don't think even with the accreditation that that will be solved. A few of the people who got accredited previously have set up their own schools, just like that. IMO, it could generate a whole bunch of new schools and the hobby could suffer as a consequence if the schools are ran badly. Best of luck to the guys who have set up, I don't in anyway want to take away from what they have achieved, but I wonder why this accreditation is suddenly required 25 years after Ray Mears started Woodlore and after many other long standing schools have been in business running excellent and varied courses for many years.
All I can suggest to somebody going on a course is to do your homework. Book with a school that has had a number of good reports from varying sources. Don't go just because they hold a certain certificate, sometimes paperwork can prove knowledge, albeit limited due to lack of experience. Unprovable experience can more often than not outweigh the qualified persons certificate.
We've all heard horror stories of well known schools running terrible courses, I seem to remember somebody sharing their experiences on one of the red letter day courses ran by a school near Hereford or some such. There is no governing body for the schools, and I don't think even with the accreditation that that will be solved. A few of the people who got accredited previously have set up their own schools, just like that. IMO, it could generate a whole bunch of new schools and the hobby could suffer as a consequence if the schools are ran badly. Best of luck to the guys who have set up, I don't in anyway want to take away from what they have achieved, but I wonder why this accreditation is suddenly required 25 years after Ray Mears started Woodlore and after many other long standing schools have been in business running excellent and varied courses for many years.
All I can suggest to somebody going on a course is to do your homework. Book with a school that has had a number of good reports from varying sources. Don't go just because they hold a certain certificate, sometimes paperwork can prove knowledge, albeit limited due to lack of experience. Unprovable experience can more often than not outweigh the qualified persons certificate.
I've no doubt that the poeple delivering this course do have the experience and knowledge, and are extremely good in what they provide........
My concern is with the accreditiation....£2,700 for a certificate is extrememly expensive....even if it is at level3.
I'm fairly sure a Certificate in Education for example would not cost that much, would entitle one to letters after ones name, be recognised by the Education Industry and would qualify one to deliver and invigilate the above course at least the theory.........
Smoggy.
My concern is with the accreditiation....£2,700 for a certificate is extrememly expensive....even if it is at level3.
I'm fairly sure a Certificate in Education for example would not cost that much, would entitle one to letters after ones name, be recognised by the Education Industry and would qualify one to deliver and invigilate the above course at least the theory.........
Smoggy.
With the increase in expensive kit, so called uniforms and now courses that cost thousands of pounds, Bushcraft as a hobby is becoming very elitist.
Having attended several courses some of which were at Woodcraft School which is run, by John Rhyder, I decided to sign up for the Instructors Course.
The level of tuition and knowledge passed on was in depth and included legal aspects, of running a school, lesson plans and a full range of practical and theoretical skills.
The course is not one you can just sign up for you attend an interview and have to give a practical demonstration of your some of your skills.
As regards cost you spend 5 days a month in the woods spread over 10 months. Starting in September finishing in June the following year, this breaks down to £270 a month for a 5 day course, which I believe is very good value for the level of knowledge gained.
You are continually assessed and face various identification tests throughout the course.
We all had to produce a portfolio of evidence throughout the course.
John Rhyder and Woodcraft School is highly respected within the Bushcraft world, this was very evident when I attended the Wilderness Gathering last year.
I can second what Seoras has already said it was the best course I have ever been on and value wise was worth every penny.
If you do in fact decide to do the course you will not be dissappointed by the course sylabus and will indeed learn far more than is described on the sylabus.
I can not recommend this course enough, but the same as most things in life the choice is yours
The level of tuition and knowledge passed on was in depth and included legal aspects, of running a school, lesson plans and a full range of practical and theoretical skills.
The course is not one you can just sign up for you attend an interview and have to give a practical demonstration of your some of your skills.
As regards cost you spend 5 days a month in the woods spread over 10 months. Starting in September finishing in June the following year, this breaks down to £270 a month for a 5 day course, which I believe is very good value for the level of knowledge gained.
You are continually assessed and face various identification tests throughout the course.
We all had to produce a portfolio of evidence throughout the course.
John Rhyder and Woodcraft School is highly respected within the Bushcraft world, this was very evident when I attended the Wilderness Gathering last year.
I can second what Seoras has already said it was the best course I have ever been on and value wise was worth every penny.
If you do in fact decide to do the course you will not be dissappointed by the course sylabus and will indeed learn far more than is described on the sylabus.
I can not recommend this course enough, but the same as most things in life the choice is yours
Soar, you are right it is a shame to think that many of us have to pay to learn these skills.
I was lucky to be taught by my father, mother, uncles and my grandfather/mother many skills that we have branded as bushcraft today. When I was a child that was how it was living in a crofting environment, there was no other way. I can still remember my father teaching me how to live in the woods, my grandfather teaching me how to hunt and use a firesteel and my mother how to dye wool with lichens.
Some folk think that was a good up bringing and others give that 'Oh you poor dear routine'. I prefer the former myself.
Nowadays I work with many inner city kids and am quite happy to run free courses for my Sea Cadets (we are a charity with no direct funding from the MOD like the Army or Air Cadets). Very rarely as instructors do we ever get any pay but do the training because of the enjoyment of it.
Last week I was running bushcraft courses at our Sea Cadet annual camp and at the end of each day after many shelter building, Atl atl and bowdrill activities I would walk the cadets (usually about 20 of them) out onto an open field to view all the deer in the training area. OK the deer were from 50 to 100 metres away when we were watching them but to the kids this was a whole new world. As soon as I felt the deer were getting slightly spooked and too attentive of us we would back of out of sight.
In the world I choose to work in which involves either teaching adults to teach bushcraft or teaching the kids I work with then I have to hold a qualification in that subject. It is the first question my superiors ask me, 'What is your qualification to undertake this activity'?
It is the same in the Hillwalking/Mountaineering side of things. If I did not have my ML I could not take the cadets out on the hill to work towards the D of E awards.
It is my choice to gain these qualifications and I am happy to do so. It is not a be all and and end all of anything and I am a firm believer in that my gaining relevant qualifications it is only a starting point in my interests in these subjects.
John Ryders Bushcraft Leadership course has given me a firm foundation to explore the many avenues Bushcraft has to offer me. I do not work for John but believe he has a good course and is a brilliant woodsman and bushcrafter. I have just finished his Primitive Technology course which has allowed me to conduct a lot of experimentation in that field. The qualification is a bonus at the end of it but it is the journey through the structured learning framework he has set up that I enjoy most of all.
I cannot carry out my training with the Sea Cadets (which really is my hobby) without the qualifications . I know that can be seen as a sad sign of the times we live in but I am accepting of this. I think in todays society we have to be accepting of everyones way of getting knowledge and passing it on (to me that is the important bit), be that through accredited or non accredited courses or sharing of knowledge. After all is that what the Bushmoot is all about. My wife has tried to tempt me away on holidays (it is really not her scene I think) over the Bushmoot but so far to no success.
Cheers
George
I'm now wondering if people know the difference between a Certificate and a Qualification?
Regardless of how many days you are in the field and how much you learn, you are still paying £2,700 for a Certificate, not a Qualification.........
As I said before, I'm sure the staff are extremely good in their own areas and deliver an excellent course.........
Smoggy.
Regardless of how many days you are in the field and how much you learn, you are still paying £2,700 for a Certificate, not a Qualification.........
As I said before, I'm sure the staff are extremely good in their own areas and deliver an excellent course.........
Smoggy.
As Charlie and I have already said, it is our choice to do it.
You make your own choices Smoggy.
Endex for me on this subject.
Hopefully see some of you at the bowdrill classes at the Bushmoot.
Cheers
George
Hi,
Interesting thread. I think it's almost inevitable that eventually there will be a need for a qualification scheme for those wishing to instruct Bushcraft for commercial gain within the UK.
I think the 'hobby' side of Bushcraft will remain much the same with interested folk getting out for the weekend etc. But if you want to instruct on a commercial basis I can see that you'll need to have a qualification. It's pretty much the same for all other outdoor pursuits.
Take Rock Climbing as an example. Nothing stops you as an individual buying some kit from Blacks or Snow and Rock and then heading down to a crag and climbing till your hearts content.Nor going climbing with friends. If you wanted to instruct however you'd have to get involved with a qualification of some discription say the SPA via the MLTE scheme. Do some training work on a log book and get assesed as competent.
If you took people climbing for commercial gain without any appropriate qualifications and an injury or fatality ensued. You'd reasonably expect to have some explaining to do probably to the HSE....
What qualifications do you need to currently operate a bushcraft school in the UK and set yourself up as a bushcraft instructor? I don't think you need any do you??
Cheers
John
Interesting thread. I think it's almost inevitable that eventually there will be a need for a qualification scheme for those wishing to instruct Bushcraft for commercial gain within the UK.
I think the 'hobby' side of Bushcraft will remain much the same with interested folk getting out for the weekend etc. But if you want to instruct on a commercial basis I can see that you'll need to have a qualification. It's pretty much the same for all other outdoor pursuits.
Take Rock Climbing as an example. Nothing stops you as an individual buying some kit from Blacks or Snow and Rock and then heading down to a crag and climbing till your hearts content.Nor going climbing with friends. If you wanted to instruct however you'd have to get involved with a qualification of some discription say the SPA via the MLTE scheme. Do some training work on a log book and get assesed as competent.
If you took people climbing for commercial gain without any appropriate qualifications and an injury or fatality ensued. You'd reasonably expect to have some explaining to do probably to the HSE....
What qualifications do you need to currently operate a bushcraft school in the UK and set yourself up as a bushcraft instructor? I don't think you need any do you??
Cheers
John
I took this course in 2003. It was the very first one. I didn't manage to complete my portfolio because I had to make up the time I was away from work by starting early and finishing late so had very little time for course work.
Things are different now a little more gentle paced, so I've signed up to do it again.
Some good points have been raised.
Not everyone who takes this course wants to start a school. I have completely different plans, and will need a credible qualification to show to the people who I'm hoping to do some work for, otherwise I could be just some bloke off the street saying I can teach bushcraft.........gis a job!
I agree there are some very knowledgeable instructors indeed out there who have no accreditation or certificates but as we all know nowadays councils,charity groups, body's etc have to cover their own backsides by employing someone who is in some way qualified to teach any given subject. I can speak fluent German and Japanese but no one is going to employ me to teach it because I have no qualifcation. In fact my German is excellent and I can talk all day in German quite happily using slang if you want. It may be even better than some German teachers (maybe not native Germans thoughuppy_dog ) I'm not blowing my own trumpet, what I'm saying is any authority or body will want to see paper qualifications which will of course show a certain level of competance to teach a given subject.
I'm hoping to teach disadvantaged kids and run some basic bushcraft courses for ex-addicts and offenders. I'm not gong to be teaching advanced bow making or birch bark canoe building because I couldn't even if I wanted to, because I don't know how.
The people I'm looking at teaching will be quite happy with basic bushcraft stuff that most of us take for granted. I taught some youth offenders once and they didn't even know what a stinging nettle looked like.Unbelievable to us, but true. Very simple bushcraft is enough for some groups.
A lot of goups are equally as interested in their charges learning other skills like teamwork, self reliance, confidence, pride, respect, awareness of other people etc, which bushcraft covers quite admirably. Even basic food prep and cooking skills amongst others.
I've been on lots of courses with John Ryder and Nick Ward and they're first class instructors, outdoorsmen and woodsmen with a great deal of knowledge. The money is a lot (esecially for me..Mr No job ) but worth every penny. You learn so much and pick up countless extra snippets of knowledge, that are impossible to list, on top of the listed modules. (quite often sat around the fire in the evenings). John and Nick are also very amiable people and like a comedy duo sometimes. Funny blokes.
I think if you already run your own school (or want to run your own school) that's fine if you have the knowledge and skills and not forgetting are good at teaching.
If you have different plans and want to teach for councils, bodies etc they're almost certainly going to ask................ 'are you qualifed in any way'?
You also get a BELA and remote response first aid certificate so you ill be allowed to lead groups in lowland Britain.
I wonder sometimes if (god forbid) there was a disaster sometime, and people got hurt on a course somewhere, when the HSE come to investigate arn't they surely going to ask what qualfication the instructor has? Even a hugely experienced instructor may have problems explaining in court that he has none but he does have years of practical experience. I hope this never happens of course but we all know the rules and red tape nowadays.
Even a BELA is probably a requirement to lead groups, even just for a gentle plant walk over the downs. That's the way things are nowadays and it'll probably only get worse.
I've got mixed feelings about all the rules. It does protect to a certain extent the public from cowboys, but on the other hand there are instructors out there who have an immeasurable amount of experience and knowledge who know loads more than someone with a NCFE certificate. The thing is that if things go teats up, a qualification of some kind is going to help your case and of course if you want to work for an outdoor centre or body of some sort then it proves a certain amount of knowledge of your subject.
Not just anyone can go on the woodcraft instructors course. You have to demonstrat a certain level of skill and knowledge to be accepted in the first place.
Anyway the dog's nagging to go out for a walk now, so best leave it there for now.
Things are different now a little more gentle paced, so I've signed up to do it again.
Some good points have been raised.
Not everyone who takes this course wants to start a school. I have completely different plans, and will need a credible qualification to show to the people who I'm hoping to do some work for, otherwise I could be just some bloke off the street saying I can teach bushcraft.........gis a job!
I agree there are some very knowledgeable instructors indeed out there who have no accreditation or certificates but as we all know nowadays councils,charity groups, body's etc have to cover their own backsides by employing someone who is in some way qualified to teach any given subject. I can speak fluent German and Japanese but no one is going to employ me to teach it because I have no qualifcation. In fact my German is excellent and I can talk all day in German quite happily using slang if you want. It may be even better than some German teachers (maybe not native Germans though
uppy_dog ) I'm not blowing my own trumpet, what I'm saying is any authority or body will want to see paper qualifications which will of course show a certain level of competance to teach a given subject.I'm hoping to teach disadvantaged kids and run some basic bushcraft courses for ex-addicts and offenders. I'm not gong to be teaching advanced bow making or birch bark canoe building because I couldn't even if I wanted to, because I don't know how.
The people I'm looking at teaching will be quite happy with basic bushcraft stuff that most of us take for granted. I taught some youth offenders once and they didn't even know what a stinging nettle looked like.Unbelievable to us, but true. Very simple bushcraft is enough for some groups.
A lot of goups are equally as interested in their charges learning other skills like teamwork, self reliance, confidence, pride, respect, awareness of other people etc, which bushcraft covers quite admirably. Even basic food prep and cooking skills amongst others.
I've been on lots of courses with John Ryder and Nick Ward and they're first class instructors, outdoorsmen and woodsmen with a great deal of knowledge. The money is a lot (esecially for me..Mr No job
) but worth every penny. You learn so much and pick up countless extra snippets of knowledge, that are impossible to list, on top of the listed modules. (quite often sat around the fire in the evenings). John and Nick are also very amiable people and like a comedy duo sometimes. Funny blokes.I think if you already run your own school (or want to run your own school) that's fine if you have the knowledge and skills and not forgetting are good at teaching.
If you have different plans and want to teach for councils, bodies etc they're almost certainly going to ask................ 'are you qualifed in any way'?
You also get a BELA and remote response first aid certificate so you ill be allowed to lead groups in lowland Britain.
I wonder sometimes if (god forbid) there was a disaster sometime, and people got hurt on a course somewhere, when the HSE come to investigate arn't they surely going to ask what qualfication the instructor has? Even a hugely experienced instructor may have problems explaining in court that he has none but he does have years of practical experience. I hope this never happens of course but we all know the rules and red tape nowadays.
Even a BELA is probably a requirement to lead groups, even just for a gentle plant walk over the downs. That's the way things are nowadays and it'll probably only get worse.
I've got mixed feelings about all the rules. It does protect to a certain extent the public from cowboys, but on the other hand there are instructors out there who have an immeasurable amount of experience and knowledge who know loads more than someone with a NCFE certificate. The thing is that if things go teats up, a qualification of some kind is going to help your case and of course if you want to work for an outdoor centre or body of some sort then it proves a certain amount of knowledge of your subject.
Not just anyone can go on the woodcraft instructors course. You have to demonstrat a certain level of skill and knowledge to be accepted in the first place.
Anyway the dog's nagging to go out for a walk now, so best leave it there for now.
There are so many qualifications about its hard to know what they mean.
I need an OCR level 2 in numeracy and literacy to get into the Civil service.
I tried to find out what OCR meant...`Oxford, Cambridge and Royal school of art`...
and I cannot see why so many of you want to work with deprived kids...You would be far better off with privelidged kids, just as many yobs, probably better pay, and you will be being a bad inflence on our future leaders who may take an interest in the enviroment.
Look at Cuba, they have an enlightened enviromental policy because the people in charge love nature.
I need an OCR level 2 in numeracy and literacy to get into the Civil service.
I tried to find out what OCR meant...`Oxford, Cambridge and Royal school of art`...
and I cannot see why so many of you want to work with deprived kids...You would be far better off with privelidged kids, just as many yobs, probably better pay, and you will be being a bad inflence on our future leaders who may take an interest in the enviroment.
Look at Cuba, they have an enlightened enviromental policy because the people in charge love nature.
Personally I'd prefer to help underprivelaged kids (and adults with various problems) because they are exactly that. Underprivelaged. Spoilt yahoo Henry's and Henrietta's arn't of any interest to me (although if the parents were paying I'd do it to earn some money.)
There are loads of schools teaching mainstream kids and adults bushcraft. Money isn't my motivation. I couldn't care less about making loads of money, but of course I need to make a reaonable amount to pay the bills the same as anyone else, and if I can make a modest living doing something I love all the better. It's certainly better than working at the hospital where I worked before with all the self-important managers, and SOME of the nurses and doctors.
Don't you believe there's no money in teaching underprivelaged kids, ex-offenders or ex-addicts, councils allocate good money to pay for activities for certain groups.
As I mentioned they're not looking necessarily for advanced bushcraft tuition, but also life skills that some of these folk may not and probably don't have.
this has come up before for me when I was tryingto find a wood for a meet in Essex. I asked if we wold be allowed to use it to practice our skillls pass on any knowledege to each other that we have, they asked what qualifications we have. When I told them known they said no. Why do we need it to do what we want as a hobby. It seems that this is how most popular hobby/sport goes. I have also been taught how to climb and do rope work when I was in the army and have no certificate or qualification so I can't do my hobby at climbing walls unless I show them that. BS if you ask me.
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