Cegga Axe for sale on Ebay

[British Red]

There are as many as Cegga wants to make available - we have a batch on the go right now when he gets a chance to finish them.

They have always been underpriced as many people have told me (think what a hand made knife costs!).


If people want a GB, then they should buy one - I have several. The fit and finish n a GB isn't a patch on Ceggas work but they are a fine axe nonetheless.


The guy who is selling the axe is entitled to sell it in any way they want - its their property. However I would like to see all profits from future sales go to the maker (or store that retails them of course)- that seems only fair I certainly wouldn't like to price them out the hands of users - which is why I have sold them here as "group buys" and made not a penny on them for myself. However when you think that a third of the selling cost goes on postage and a fair chunk of the rest on leather, helves and steel, I think it would be fair to charge a more "market price" - the extra might ensure Cegga makes as much as someone working for minimum wage over here!

Red

 

[lou1661]

Red,
If im on the list for the next batch i will gladly pass some more folding ones in the right direction, having seen the quality finish i would gladly pass my thanks on to the maker in the form of beer tokens.
Lou

 

[Huon]

I suspect they probably would still sell at £70 and higher. GBs are good but I have to say that Cegga's axes are far better.

Anyway, why should a custom axe be valued less than a custom knife? I regularly see knives going for far more than this but the amount of work needed to make an axe is at least comparable to that needed to make a knife.

Cheers,

Huon

If you price them anywhere like the price this one is at, I doubt you'll sell them all.

The demand is their becuase people are thinking that no more will be made, but I'm aware their are 20 more available. Plus, if you price them at £70 or whatever, a GB looks far more attractive at the lower price, plus, it prices these axes out of the range of people who need them, and just means richer people who won't use them as much will take them.

 

[fishy1]

There are as many as Cegga wants to make available - we have a batch on the go right now when he gets a chance to finish them.

They have always been underpriced as many people have told me (think what a hand made knife costs!).


If people want a GB, then they should buy one - I have several. The fit and finish n a GB isn't a patch on Ceggas work but they are a fine axe nonetheless.


The guy who is selling the axe is entitled to sell it in any way they want - its their property. However I would like to see all profits from future sales go to the maker (or store that retails them of course)- that seems only fair I certainly wouldn't like to price them out the hands of users - which is why I have sold them here as "group buys" and made not a penny on them for myself. However when you think that a third of the selling cost goes on postage and a fair chunk of the rest on leather, helves and steel, I think it would be fair to charge a more "market price" - the extra might ensure Cegga makes as much as someone working for minimum wage over here!

Red

I'm sure cegga's axes are superiour to GB's, I was just saying if you put it 25 quid more than the most similar gb axe, you'd lose a lot of interest. The guy on ebay was selling it as he didn't use it enough, seems a fair enough reason.

"or store that retails them of course" What's the difference between a store and someone on ebay making some kind of profit on it?

 

[British Red]

Stores have to pay VAT and staff for a start!

I doubt there will ever be a shortage of customers - I have had dozens of enquiries from the USA (we haven't sold any there yet as I have been putting them all on here).

I have no problem with the guy on E-bay at all - its his axe and he can do with it whatever he likes. In many ways I'm grateful for testing the "market value" of the axes- I just like to see a fair deal all round. Those who bought the first round of axes will remember me saying then that the purpose of the buy was to help "launch" Ceggas work over here and that the price was artificially low to reflect that.

I think its fair to say that his reputation is now known . Cegga would never exploit the market but it is fair that he makes a proper price.

Anyway - we'll await the outcome of the auction with interest - the decision will be Ceggas of course

Red

 

[Matt Weir]

what??? you mean there are different types??? I thought there was just the standard or the mini ones with the short handles ??!! I'm wondering which type I have now

Aiye,

As I remember the first 3 batches were the 'Hunter', a beautiful mid sized axe designed as an all-round chopper/carving axe. The 4th gen I think is the 'Carver' designed towards more intricate work.

If I'm wrong then I'm sure Red will correct me

 

[andyn]

Kind of someone. I always wondered what price I should sell them at.

I'll be watching with interest - price of the next batch can be determined so easily

I always knew I was underpricing them. Still, we can fix that on the next batch

There are as many as Cegga wants to make available - we have a batch on the go right now when he gets a chance to finish them.

Hugh, the above posts of yours are somewhat confusing.

"This forum is for members of Bushcraft UK to organise group buys for other member. The organisation of group buys is purely voluntary and the idea is that the price for an item can be driven down by buying in bulk."
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9477

Yet you are now talking about YOU uping the price that YOU sell the axes at.

Seems to me, from what you are saying, you have a vested interest in these axes, and therefore they can't really be classifed as group buy items in the future as you are acting as a trader/advertiser on behalf of Cegga. Should they therefore not be in the makers market section.

 

[MagiKelly]

Yet you are now talking about YOU uping the price that YOU sell the axes at.

Seems to me, from what you are saying, you have a vested interest in these axes, and therefore they can't really be classifed as group buy items in the future as you are acting as a trader/advertiser on behalf of Cegga. Should they therefore not be in the makers market section.

Seems you are trying to goad Hugh here

If you seriously think that Red has a financial gain from the selling of these axes you are simply crazy.

The only interest Hugh has in these Axes is in helping making them available to us at all and also to try and make sure the maker is not squeezed to hard on price. I am sure it is great to have a few axes available at a rock bottom price but is it worth being at the expense of them not being available long term?

Alan Blade made sold his work too cheap and now you can't get them as he got into such trouble. He could have done with someone like Red to help advise them on what was a fair price for a group buy compared to the market price.

I actually can't believe I am even writing this post as I doubted anyone was daft enough to doubt Hugh's integrity. Guess I was wrong.

 

[andyn]

Actually John,

No i too have no doubt over Hugh's integrity and dont think for a second he is trying to make a financial gain for himself here. I'm not having a go, just see that perhaps a rethink as to how these axes are sold might be benifical.

In other words what I am asking is whether he is running group buys, or finding an outlet for cegga to sell his axes. If its the latter then perhaps they should be in the makers market. I think its a perfectly valid observation...but if you want me to expand on my point more clearly then so be.....

I'm not trying to goad anyone....If the sale of these axes are a group buy then, by Tony's very definition of how the group buy forum is to run, Hugh wouldn't be saying that he will be judging the success of an ebay auction as to the price that HE will sell Cegga's axes for in the future.

If i'm interpretting this incorrectly, then I of course apologise. But it's not Hugh's product to specify the cost of the group buy item. If Cegga wants more per axe then that is his call....No? Tony's very definition of the group buys is that the organisers is trying to get a good price for the member's of the forum. Not work on behalf of the seller to get more money to them. If he wants to do that, then sell them through a different method.

 

[robin wood]

If Cegga wants more per axe then that is his call.

I think we can all agree on that one. Having said that as a working craftsman I can tell you that putting a price on your work is one of the most difficult things to do. If you are passionate about your work you put a bit of your heart and soul into every piece. It's easy to discuss the price of milk in Tescos on a supply and demand basis and we could discus Cegga axes in the same way but I can tell you when you put your work out there if folk say it's too expensive it hurts, if folk don't value it it hurts. All you want to do is make nice things sell them at an honest price that pays a wage and hopefully get some feedback on how much folk have enjoyed using what you have made...that is as good as hard cash. In fact the whole issue of putting a price on a thing somehow devalues it and turns it into a "commodity" I stopped selling to retailers because I found it difficult when they talked about my "products" as if they were just so much stuff to buy and sell and make a profit on.

I would say to Cegga, work out the true cost of these things, how many hours goes into each, how much you want to earn (as much as a McDonald's worker? a newly qualified teacher? a plumber? you could probably train to be a lawyer in less time than it takes to learn to make axes well) Then tell us the price. We are not paying retail markup on them which is great though perhaps the postage issue could be looked at, would it not make more sense to post 20 to one person and them send them out in this country?.

This axe may go for a lot of money, I am not sure how happy a situation it is for a maker to have pieces sold at very high prices. I have friends who are potters who's "functional" work goes for prices that preclude people using them, I think in general they are less happy than those that make more and sell at lower prices though some get a kick out of making few, selling for lots, and being "the best". How many Alan Wood knives do you see sold unused? Some folk are happy with that, I would not be.

I think that the difference in price between axes and knives is that axes thus far have been made and sold as functional items with QC that is fit for function but no more. With custom knives fit and finish far beyond the needs of function is admired and paid for, we are well into the realms of man jewelry. There has been plenty of discussion on here that suggests we may move in that direction with axes with people complaining about fit and finish that simply does not affect function. I for one will still buy most of my axes and knives that are made to a level that is fit for function. Although I may treat myself to an odd pretty one too I don't think we should confuse beginners into believing that custom axes or knives are so much better functionally than well produced production tools.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Seems you are trying to goad Hugh here

If you seriously think that Red has a financial gain from the selling of these axes you are simply crazy.

The only interest Hugh has in these Axes is in helping making them available to us at all and also to try and make sure the maker is not squeezed to hard on price. I am sure it is great to have a few axes available at a rock bottom price but is it worth being at the expense of them not being available long term?

Alan Blade made sold his work too cheap and now you can't get them as he got into such trouble. He could have done with someone like Red to help advise them on what was a fair price for a group buy compared to the market price.

I actually can't believe I am even writing this post as I doubted anyone was daft enough to doubt Hugh's integrity. Guess I was wrong.

John,

I don't think that this is the case here - I don't see Andy picking a fight or questioning anyones integrity, and nor would I question his. He is merely asking whether this is still a topic suitable for the group buy section and I think his question is fair. If we compare this to the many, many group buys you have successfully run (thank you again!) where the power of larger scale purchase is used to bring cost benefits to BCUK members - these are the true spirit of BCUK GBs! I don't think that you were price pressuring the manufacturer there, rather offering them a bulk outlet at the usual prevailing market discounts and passing the benefits directly on - with an obvious time loss/cost to yourself!

It seems to me that Cegga being a smaller bespoke maker, and that Hugh is effectively fronting for him in this forum. So moving this to the makers market would clarify the sale footing and NOT make this a stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap topic, but rather one associated with smaller quantities and higher quality with the proper price expectation - one that will no doubt only go up as his makers standing and demand increases.
Surely this can only benefit both maker and buyer? You can already see questions in this thread regarding product/price comparisions and the defense that quality costs - the very essence of the difference between GB vs. Makers Market to my mind. Anyway, my $0.02 worth.

 

[Glen]

I think cases can be made both that it should be in the group buy section and the makers section, though to my mind the very price the one in question looks like its going to fetch on the open market shows that it's very much a discounted price to BCUK members and done in batches of 20(?) and that the confusion is comming in beause Cegga, as yet, is not selling them outside of BCUK at their full market value.

 

[spamel]

Ooooh, this thread looked like it was gonna get a bit heated there for a moment!

I have no doubt of Reds' integrity, and I can also say that when aspersions are cast on a public forum about your honesty and integrity, it hurts. Some of you may know that I no longer visit another well known forum due to things that were said in a similar vein to what has been said here. I know it is just a forum and that many of us have never met, but I still class many people here as very good friends that I am waiting to meet one day. So let's try to keep it civil and let's not fall out, after all the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow!

 

[British Red]

Yes Andy I have a vested interest in this topic.

My vested interest is in the fact

1) The axe bears my name and was my design
2) I introduced Cegga to this forum as a matter of mutual interest - he as a brilliiant axe smith and the forum members as a great high end product
3) My financial interest has been limited to giving my original axe away for a good cause and paying full price to replace it. Oh and one person who thought they had an issue - I offered to refund their money from my own pocket.
4) Guiding Cegga to what a fair price is for his goods in the UK

I have never touched the money for these transactions - all money's are paid direct to Cegga - feel free to check the fact with any purchaser.

However, I don't see my role to be that of beating the supplier of these quality tools to the lowest possible price - rather determining a fair price that offers the goods to all at lest than they would cost if one had to pay retail overheads VAT etc.

Now when an axe purchaser is in a position to make more money than an axe maker (which he is quite entitled to do owning the axe outright), it is my position that we, as a community with some ethics, should play fair with the axe maker and pay a fair price for the product.

You will notice that the post two above yours I said that the final decision would be Ceggas, however if I am organising a group buy (which Tony will confirm, I checked with him before I ever did so), I intend to ensure that the buy is fair to everyone concerned - not least (or most) the maker.

To me, the spirit of the campfire is not one of "get it as cheap as you can", but fairness, honesty and transparency. A top craftsman is worth paying a fair price. All makers do sell cheaply to begin with and hopefully, eventually, make a fair return.

However, your feedback is noted - thank you for making your feelings plain on the matter

Red

 

[stevec]

Hi Red, I have been reading this thread with interest and trepidation,

like many here i never doubted your intentions, and like many i also thought that the price was a bit cheap.

if there is another group buy i'd like to be in on it. let me know,

all the best
steve

 

[pothunter]

British Red and I may have had differing opinions from time to time but from his posts and debates he has entered into I would say he is a man of the utmost integrity offering a level of understanding and honesty that is sadly lacking in many.

Even if he does have a plastic gun.....you have my support for what its worth.

Pothunter.

 

[Tadpole]

If i'm interpretting this incorrectly, then I of course apologise. But it's not Hugh's product to specify the cost of the group buy item. If Cegga wants more per axe then that is his call....No? Tony's very definition of the group buys is that the organisers is trying to get a good price for the member's of the forum. Not work on behalf of the seller to get more money to them. If he wants to do that, then sell them through a different method.

It is my understanding that British Red has spoken to Tony on this matter over a year ago

I've taken your advice though and asked Tony to make a call on the best way to handle this going forward as there seems to be a large demand. I'm really happy to help put it together - but only in a way that suits buyers and seller that leaves everyone betetr off and not pressured or out of pocket.

Red

I'm not sure what has changed since Tony made his 'call' in Feb 2007

 

[British Red]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

For me this is not about a "right and wrong" situation. Andy has said that he doesn't feel that these items should be advertised as a group buy - he is entitled to express his views and I would be loathe to foment any discord in the forum.

My position has always been that I want to be as fair to Cegga as I am to purchasers - that creates a sustainable and mutually beneficial relationship not a "boom / bust" cycle in which one party benefits to the detriment of others.

A view has been expressed that a group buy is (or is no longer) the correct way to do that. Thats fine and the poster is entitled to that view. Cegga and I have already started to discuss that view (which is the view of some but not all members - that is understood).

Lets leave it there guys - Cegga will decide how to sell his axes, and if I can help him in a way that is fair to all concerned then I will continue to do so as they are a great product that I like to see people using. If the way to do that is a different way than we have to date, so be it - things change.

Thanks again to all for the kind words - I'm glad I have the trust of some members and that many seem pleased with their purchases

All the best

Red

 

[andyn]

Just to echo hugh, i'm not saying that these axes shouldnt be sold or that I thought there was any underhand going on's or lack of trust etc.

As Hugh says all I was expressing was that I thought that based upon Hugh's comments that perhaps group buys weren't the best way forward anymore.

If Tony still feels that this is fine regardless then who am I to argue.

 

[Aaron]

Thanks for the kind words guys.
Lets leave it there guys - Cegga will decide how to sell his axes, and if I can help him in a way that is fair to all concerned then I will continue to do so as they are a great product that I like to see people using. If the way to do that is a different way than we have to date, so be it - things change.

Therein lies the paradox in your motives Hugh, I feel. Good craftsmanship should command a premium price that reflects the efforts of the maker - if the price on ebay (was it around £100 that it went for?) reflects what people are willing to pay then this is fine, but I would argue that at that price and with the limited supply you wont see many of them being used as there is something psychological that prevents the owner from using it in the manner intended as they dont want to risk damaging it, much like many people who have bought Woodlore Knives. I seem to remember one member on here commenting earlier this year that he had bought a rolsons axe from B&Q as he could not bear to use his. At around £50-60 a Gransfors axe is expensive enough to figure in a relatively high standard of workmanship whilst also making it affordable and therefore easily replaced if damaged, broken or lost, which is a likelihood for any tool used for such heavy duty purposes as chopping wood however well you look after it.

In short, my point is that by charging a price that fairly rewards Cegga for his time and effort in producing a premium product you will automatically price it out of the hands of people who are likely to use it in the manner for which it was intended. As such I feel that andys point about its unsuitability for further group buys is a fair one and is a view I also subscribe to, not that it really matters. This is just my opinion and is intended as purely constructive - I wont be buying an axe whatever you decide to charge for it as I already have a prefectly good one that I am not afraid to get dirty.