bushcraft courses

[Neanderthal]

Hi Halo,

Myself and Mrs Neanderthal have been on the Woodsmoke Woodlander and flint knapping couses and would recommend them to anyone. The Woodlander is a very practical course with numerous 'projects/skills' to work on during the week. Good food and a great location in the Lakes. Ben, Lisa and the team are very knowlegable and great company.

Neanderthal

 

[Fire Starter]

Hi,

Last year I went on a fundamental bushcraft course at Woodlore – the course was fantastic and I felt I learned loads that would help me in a survival situation and had a great time.

This year I decided to try “survival” to see how it differs from “bushcraft”, so I went on a weekend course with Backwoods Survival School in Scotland. Their course also covered loads of things - : fire by friction which I failed at miserably shelter building using only natural cordage , traps & snares, improvised tools and weapons, plants, trees and lots more – in fact everything that I learned at Woodlore plus a some extra.

The big difference was the cost - £250 aat Woodlore vs £110 at Backwoods. So you may call me a cheap skate but apart from £140 difference in price, I can’t tell the difference between survival and bushcraft.

I'm new on here. I have read through some of the old threads discussing the virtues of Bushcraft vs Survival, Survival vs Bushcraft.

To me they are linked, they compliment each other. except "Bushcraft" seems to cost more.

 

[Fallow Way]

Sandbrnder - Lawrence is a fantastic bloke and really great instructor. Possibly the worst collection of jokes in the world, or indeed known in the history of the human race,but apart from that he`s a great guy

Firestarter - You get to see the differnce between Survial and Bushcraft once you start to move away from those basic core skills and start researching cultures and crafts as well as the basic premise for learning those same skills being different.

 

[sandbender]

Sandbrnder - Lawrence is a fantastic bloke and really great instructor. Possibly the worst collection of jokes in the world, or indeed known in the history of the human race,but apart from that he`s a great guy

I wasn't suggesting that he wasn't

Just posting a reply in his favour as others seemed keen on pushing Juha as the guy to choose for an instructor.

PS

Your right about the jokes

 

[Fallow Way]

Wasnt saying you were, i was agreeing with you and adding praise about the fella. Juha is God though isnt he? did ya`ll not know this?

 

[Stuart]

woodsmoke gets my vote as well, Ben and lisa are supurb instructors and their woodlander course is the finest british based bushcraft course I have attended thus far.

highly recommended.

 

[Fire Starter]

Firestarter - You get to see the differnce between Survial and Bushcraft once you start to move away from those basic core skills and start researching cultures and crafts as well as the basic premise for learning those same skills being different.

So who's teaching what, is Woodlure teaching the core skills of bushcraft and Backwoods teaching the core skills of survival? Or the other way arround?

Both schools covered the same topics but it was Backwoods who moved away from the "core subjects" with net making from natural materials and arrow making using slate arrowheads and pitch glues along with many other primitive technologies.

It seems to me that the same core skills are essential to both bushcraft and survival, so are they not one and the same?

The people of so called primitive cultures use their own version of bushcraft to survive.

 

[mbatham]

Bushcraft and Survival are the same thing in many respects. When 'Bushcrafting' you choose to put yourself in the situation with all the required tools and equipment to pursue a comfortable and simple life. Survival situations arrise when you are put in the situation with no prior preperation and usualy with out tools etc but we use the same skills and knowledge to live and survive.

 

[Fallow Way]

Bushcraft and Survival are similar in many respects, but there is that fundamental difference. Survival is preparing for unknown circumstances; Bushcraft is loving to live in wild places. There is overlap and a grey area but there is and has to be a divide, they are two subjects, for else you could just stick a whole bunch of othersubjects in same pot, Forestry shares a great deal of skills similar example.


I like the way Ray explained it to me when I first met him and got into Bushcraft. Survival is the abc, Bushcraft is the whole alphabet. Bushcraft goes beyond survival in that your learning certain skills to a greater amount of detail, variety and are drawing more influences plus there is the academic element (historical, geological, anthropological etc etc).


Survival is great don’t get me wrong, I’m just say for that that is the divide. There are those that call is survival when they are teaching more than that, some dont call it Bushcraft but something else, but broadly that’s the difference. Is learning about Creswellian Flint tools more bushcraft, or survival for example? What use would that knowledge serve in a survival situation?

I would argue that indigenous groups are not surviving, they are living. Some blatantly laugh at our views and habits because their own serve them so so well. So is living easily by your own means survival? I would argue not.


I think it also extends to learning knowledge which has little application but for the interest/joy/value of that knowledge. For example a lot of people study birch bark craft. Given how few areas there are in the world now with suitable birch bark for the craft (thanks global warming) and the level of craft involved in approaching that which the indigenous cultures produce, which at the end of the day is the aim, it doesn’t really serve as a practical survival tool, there are many many others more useful and applicable.

I would also argue the point of Bushcraft being the practice of having everything you need. One of the cornerstones of bushcraft is knowing what little you need and having the skills to create whatever else you need. Bushcraft is about traveling to wild places, not finding yourself stuck there and yes you’re going to prepare yourself and take reasonable kit as to not spend all your time just concentrating on food, shelter, fire and water, but learning the skills you went there to learn, no one would have the time to learn anything, although you need to learn and develop those skills equally.


So to cut my waffle Survival is learning those crucial skills to survive an emergency until rescue, whether a company calls it that or not, Bushcraft is the studying of all living skills and wilderness travel, whether a company calls it that or not.

The only thing consistent theme through-out the two are that no-one can come to a consensus as to what does what lol

 

[Fire Starter]

I thought the whole point of bushcraft was about being able to live in the wilds with just the knowledge of natures larder and natural materials and the ability to create from scratch all the necessary tools etc. It does seem to me that the Bushcrafter is becoming a new age camper armed to the teeth with numerous knifes, axes, saw and other kit. When I was on that survival course the instructor asked to see our knives and then asked us all to put them back in our rucksack.
We where then handed a flake of flint for use over the weekend.
I was a little upset at this (just Invested in a nice knife) but after the weekend realised what the point of it was.
Whether its survival or bushcraft we should be able to step forward into the wild environment and live using just the knowledge. As for myself I will try it after I've absorbed the information from this great site.

 

[Fallow Way]

I agree with you about not going armed to the teeth, my knife is the only thing I’m always with. I spent a week not so long ago just creating and using flint tools to carve an archery set and scrape skins etc (and to be honest, get the right curve on your flake and its the best damn arrow shaft scrapper you’ll ever find ) However Bushcraft isn’t about playing the primitive it’s about learning all of those skills not just from Neolithic for example, but the axe-craftsmanship of bygone woodsmen equally and bringing those skills back into use. It is one thing to have that knowledge and be able to walk out and look after yourself, but you don’t need to do it every single time your traveling wild.



Personally I am of the firm belief, learn what you are going out to learn. If I am constantly doing it the prim tech way, it would take twice as long to learn half as much. If I am already learning those skills, what is wrong with a modern knife and sleeping bag to make life comfortable while I’m practicing tracking?

 

[Fire Starter]

Fallow Way,
I see nothing wrong with using a sleeping bag or modern knife when practicing these skills. I do that myself - Thats not my point.

But when you do go out into the wilds or woodland with those items, plus Tarp, hammock 2 or 4 different knives, a saw, an axe and all the other kit do you see yourself as a Bushcrafter or a modern Bushcamper?

I thought the idea was to carry less not more. Do you think there is an element of 'look at me.... look at me ' in all of this?

Whats the point of owning a Fender if you can't play a chord?

 

[Fallow Way]

lol I completely agree with you on that, I know some that come for a week, but are prepared for the rest of the year lol

I agree with carrying less (by knowing more to finish the well known phrase) and the vast majoirty of poeple do. I personally dont carry much but I dont think a sleeping bag, tarp, axe, saw first aid kit, knife and a few popts and pans any sort of indulgence.

Those of us that have been doing it for a while have gone out without that stuff and proved to ourselves we can do without it so feel quite comfortable in using it.

To answer your question, with my kit, I feel like a student of Bushcraft, because i am carrying little, to go and learn more. I remember when I first started I went off with a 90lt rucksack filled with crap, then I was a Bushcamper for sure.

So we agree we should be able to do without this stuff, I know I can and many more on here can also (better than me), so are we dissagreeing about the frequency of travling bare? Or am I miss-reading you and your simplly baulking at those permantly stuck inthe 90ltr area?

Oh and did you have to choose that name? I cant get the Prodigy tune out of my head everytime i see it lol

 

[Stuart]

we are wandering of topic here

the original question asked for recommendations with regards to a good school

The question of the difference between survival and bushcraft has been discussed extensively on BCUK in the past, please follow the link below:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=4

 

[Fire Starter]

we are wandering of topic here

the original question asked for recommendations with regards to a good school

The question of the difference between survival and bushcraft has been discussed extensively on BCUK in the past, please follow the link below:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=4

Sorry Stuart, I have just found the said thread.

Ok here are my recommendations...If you want to pay over the odds to learn survival skills - Go to Woodlore

If you want to learn bushcraft skills at a reasonable price go to Backwoods.

 

[mbatham]

Woodlore overpriced? I don't think it is. Ok, some of the sum is buying into the Ray Mears brand and who ha but I have an example:


Campcraft Course, cost £595

What you get for the money:
Gransfors SFA at £46.95 (Survival School)
Frosts Clipper Knife at £10.50 (Woodlore)
Spoon Knife £40 (Woodlore)

Thats near as damn it £100 for cutting tools alone which leaves £495 to account for.

You receive 5 FULL days of tuition from 4 instructors, one of which, Juha Rankinen is a highly accomplished craftsman and backwoodsman. As the course leader, it is reasonable to assume he has been vetted by Ray himself to a standarded where Ray believes Juha to be excellent - they are actualy good friends I beleive, judging from their reaction to one another when Ray visited the course. This bloke lives in Sweeden and travels here for courses, I think it would be safe to assume £50 of what I paid went to him. Another 2 instuctors Paul and Dave are highly knowledgable, with Paul being invited by Ray to instruct on his courses, another £50 of my money I think. £400.

Imagine the cost of insurance for a group of ammatures to use axes and knives, felling trees, cooking on fires etc etc. This would have to be another £50 from each person atleast, on every course. £350.

The land is owned by the Earl of Abbergavveny, I presume rent has to be paid to him, I'll assume £25 of my money. There is also the cost of maintaining the Land rovers used byt the school for transport etc. Another £25? £300

The office staff need to be paid, the office run, consumables purchased for this, £20, then there is the stuff used on the course, materials, oils, equipment like bivy bags, cleaning of that lot, rolling replacment of kit, gus at another £30 which leaves £250.

I agree that it is a lot, whats left is profit I pressume. But hwen you sonsider the collective experience of all the instructors, the superb running of the course, all the planning and the endorsment of Ray Mears, I think it is money well spent.

At the end of the day "You pays your money and you takes your choice",.

 

[Fire Starter]

Yes I do think the course I did at Woodlore was overpriced.

There are other schools offering courses covering the same skills to the same degree with good instructors and to be honest about it all, the only difference I can see is cost.

I can only speak of Woodlore and Backwoods Survival School as I have been on their courses, but I'm sure that the other schools equally have insurance costs along with all the other overheads as well, but still keep costs down. In other words, you pay a premium for the name.

You may get some extra kit incuded, but the prices you quote are selling prices, not the cost of purchase/manufacture price, ie they include even more profit. Can you opt out of buying these items if you already have them?

 

[mbatham]

The items we were provided with are the essentials, but the staff gladly offer alternatives if we already had them.

 

[Fire Starter]

Oh and did you have to choose that name? I cant get the Prodigy tune out of my head everytime i see it lol[/QUOTE]

Fallow way, I know what you mean about "That" tune! The trouble is I hadn't associated the name and tune before until you mentioned it - now I can't get it out of my head, so cheers for that

No - I chose the name because I am a "fire by friction" wannabe. I've had sucess lighting fires using a flint striker, also with iron piritees and flint but never by friction.

I thought the name Fire Starter would give me the additional inspiration needed to beat the perspiration I put into fire lighting.

I'll just keep on trying - regards

Fire Starter

 

[Tony]

The best course is the one that suits you and as we’re all different people different things are going to be important to each of us, for some it’s cost, others it’s location, reputation, length of time established, who the instructor is, has it got a survival slant, or a spiritual one or is it just pure bushcraft (although the definition of that is open for debate!)

A course is not overpriced if people are happy to pay the cost of attending, for whatever reason they see the value in where their money’s going. Some people think that some companies are overpriced, but that’s a personal opinion based on their priorities.

What I would say is that you need to pick the type of course you want to do, make sure that you understand the content of the courses. The best way to do this is to call the companies and talk to them, have some questions ready and ask anything you feel is relevant. Talk to people that have done the courses (as you are doing here) and even visit the schools if it’s convenient.

Most of the schools are very professional and they’ll bend over backwards to help you in your search for the right course for you. Remember that you’re the man with the money, they want it.

You’ve listed some schools but there are others as well, some have the spiritual aspects, or the survival aspect, some are run by people with normal jobs during the week and teach bushcraft at the weekend and others are run by full time companies (that do have a lot more overheads than those doing the weekend thing) Have a look here for some more schools, (although the list isn’t complete as I’m upgrading it in the new front end that’s going up)

Listen to what people say about the content of the course and the quality of instruction, that’s the key issue, The schools you’ve listed all have good reps, some of them have been going a lot longer than others, some of them provide a lot more course variety than others but you’ll get something out of all of them. Geographically Woodsmoke is probably your closest out of your list, have a chat with them and see what they say. Travelling distance could be one of your considerations, what you spend on petrol, or the train ticket to get further afield could make the cheaper courses comparable on price??

I’ve gone on enough about all this, the bottom line is that it’s a personal decision and you’ve got to do the legwork, you’ve started on here but there’s a lot more you can do for yourself before you decide on the school for you.

Good luck halo, you’ll not regret getting stuck in with one of them