Bushcraft courses or not?

[Womble]

I totally agree on the grading, but people like to have something to show their progress - the scouts' system of badges springs to mind as a good example, particularly the way that you can't go for some badges before earning a set of pre-requisite badges

I reckon we could come up with a set of skills and pre-requisites with a bit of thought

We could, but why? Who would enforce the prerequisites? Who would judge if the standard had been attained? What if the judges judgement was called into question? What's to stop someone wearing a badge they're not entitled to, and what "punishment" should they receive for doing so?

In short, who wants or needs that sort of hassle?

Heh... maybe we could get the Scout association to do it for us...

 

[Ed]

but people like to have something to show their progress -

I have not found this personally when I'm teaching. Students gain confidence etc as they pass through the 'bushcraft landmarks' ... first night under the stars without a tent.... fire by friction..... first snared rabbit..... first full meal with foraged food..... I don't think badges or grades are needed as students themselves are far better at 'showing' how they have progressed by 'doing' and showing others what they can do..... those that can do fire by friction help those out that havn't cracked it yet. This in itself produces a great sense of achievment.


Ed

 

[jamesdevine]

I agree with womble who here really wants to take such a task on and more to the point the Scouts already do this as do the Guides and many other organisations. Certainly it would nice to have basic standard have everyone a similar level or at least a set of basic guide lines listing all the skills encopassed by bushcraft.

Also how can you say someone has mastered fire by friction unless you have been there with them in every possible situation. the bow drill alone would require a life time of observation. We also don't want to create specailists in a particular area as that is not bushcraft that is simply fire lighting.

Just my thoughts
James

 

[boaty]

:yikes:

Calm down dear, it's only a commercial

James and womble, I hereby absolve you of any responsibility of administering anything ): I believe you're both scout leaders - what's the opinion of your scouts on the badge scheme? I know that my 8 year old step-son and his friends love getting their badges. Does this excitement wear off as they become old and cynical?

I have not found this personally when I'm teaching.

15 years of teaching (in three different countries) and a couple of thousand students through my hands has shown me different :?: Modern pedagogical theory stresses the importance of feedback and the motivating power of recognition of achievement

But this is I personally would take a bushcraft course if I could afford the time and money - I've got neither at the moment, so have to make do with the excellent content on here, the occasional BCUK meetup, and seeing local members (EdS, great meeting you the other week - have to do it again!)

 

[Womble]

"what's the opinion of your scouts on the badge scheme? I know that my 8 year old step-son and his friends love getting their badges. Does this excitement wear off as they become old and cynical?"

Well, in most cases I'd say yes. Cubs are far more interested in getting badges than Scouts, I think. Scouts are of the age where X-Boxes, cars and hormones start entering the equation, and they can all shout pretty loud!

However, there's always the lad or lass who wants to get on, and is dead chuffed to get some recognition for something they've done. The Badge system involves recognising either participation or acheivement. With the achievement ones the requirements for earning a badge are set reasonably in stone; although there is in most cases a reasonable amount of flexibility that a leader can excercise to reflect individual circumstance.

 

[nomade]

I must confess I haven't read all the posts here but just many. So forgive me, i may say things already pointed out by others.

My experience of bushcraft which is limited compared to many of you is that on many occasions I told myself:" no handbook will tell you that!" Things I found out that I know are not in books. They may be in some courses. I have hardly been to any course.

This knowlegde gained from individual experience, or it could be a tip from a mate from his/her personal experience can also be highly personal. What works for you doesn't work for Peter, Paul or Jane. and what works for each of them not work at all for you.

But there must be things in courses that you get only from courses: some does and donts that may save you some mistakes or save you the time (or danger) to find out by yourself. There is also the camaraderie in a course although you can also find that with your outdoors party of mates.

These courses as some of you have pointed out are quite expensive. This is really a point against them.

I am sure you can learn everything on your own, with just some important tips from survival handbooks and talking to experienced people you meet along the way.

What I would gain from a course I think is (among other things) witnessing the instructor's skills whether or not I learn them well or improve them much during the course: it shows you a goal, what can be achieved through practice. And only an expert can dsiplay this level of performance.

I must say that even at my humble level of experience, i have already discovered a few tips that I have never seen in any books (and I have read quite a few bushcraft and survival books) And I have also found things in books that are not quite right. That says a lot in favour of learning by yourself...

An interesting topic!

 

[leon-1]

Also how can you say someone has mastered fire by friction unless you have been there with them in every possible situation. the bow drill alone would require a life time of observation. We also don't want to create specailists in a particular area as that is not bushcraft that is simply fire lighting.

Just my thoughts
James

I don't think, that bushcraft is that easilly classified, that you will be masters of specifics as you will always be learning.

Begginers, intermediate and advanced courses look good, but once you start getting into the intermediate and advanced levels you would start to have problems. A begginers course would incorporate basics / fundamentals where knowledge is imparted and basic skills practiced.

When you start doing intermediate and advanced levels you would probably be better of doing individual modules that raise your skill levels in a series of skills, when you have completed the seperate skill sets to move onto the next level (overall level, intermediate to advanced for instance) take an assessment similair to an NVQ. As long as the syllabus is freely available there is no reason why people cannot teach themselves and if they have an issue with a specific skill then they could do a course.

Pro's
You will be very profficient by the time you hit advanced.

Cons
It could be very expensive unless your work involved practicing these skills on a day to day basis.

Problems,

1.Who sets the standards?

2.Could we get the relevant bushcraft instructors around a table for long enough to put together and agree on a syllabus before they go for each others throats?

3.It also implies a regulating body as far as testing is concerned, who is doing the backing financially and who is doing the testing?

4.Locations for testing, as much as I would like to have a garden that I could practice bushcraft skills in, it is not likely that a tester would come there even if I did, so that effectively means test areas or centers, who pays for and maintains them?

Answers on a postcard???

 

[Ed]

I have not found this personally when I'm teaching.

15 years of teaching (in three different countries) and a couple of thousand students through my hands has shown me different Modern pedagogical theory stresses the importance of feedback and the motivating power of recognition of achievement

I think you misunderstand me boaty. I completely agree in the importance of feedback and the recognition of achievment.... I just think it can be done in other ways without resorting to badges etc..... thats all. Peer recognition goes along way to achieve this. My students feel a greatrer sense of achievment by being able to show people they can light fire by friction than having a badge that says they can do it.

:biggthump
Ed

 

[Gary]

I have to agree with Ed here, a badge as recognition of a course isnt a bad thing. A badge for a club (bcuk or otherwise) is a good thing it helps people recognise each other.

But I recently became a Fjallraven specialist and got a badge for that - great, I get to test and evaliare their gear ext - but I wont be sewing the badge on my under pants!

In the army all the Nco's in my battalion disliked wearing rank, we had earned it, and we were proud of it but we also felt you can tell a good soldier and a good NCO by how they act - Actions speak louder than words.

And the same can be said for Bushcrafters.

When I worked for Woodlore we had students who would turn up for a course and rattle off the list of courses they had done, great, good for them, WHAT ELSE HAD THEY DONE? Errr, not much too busy ect ect.
We also had students who turned up and rattled off the things they had done, places they had been too.
You could see the stark difference between the guy in the shiny new jacket and the lastest fashion in footwear and the guy in the weather beaten, world weary kit.

That to my mind is the only true badge and it is a hard earned one, but worth every drop of sweat. That is the only badge worth having!!

 

[stuart f]

Nicely put Gary

 

[RovingArcher]

Well said Gary.

 

[nomade]

Gary what you are saying reminds me of something I had noticed in some TV shows "reality TV" style where "ordinary" members of the general public were seen taking on the jungle etc (these programs are not our cups of tea, many of us including me but you end up seeing one thing or two that catches your attention in them, albeit for a few seconds). These people had seasoned instructors with them for preparation and during the trip and here is my point:

the instructors (in one of them there was "Lofty", in some others also ex-SAS like him, etc)) never wore the latest gear, rather worn-out weather-beaten survival clothing that looked like it had seen WW2 and may have done,

these guys showed they didn't give a toss about image and fashion and were about something entirely different. It was very striking.

This was also a few years ago. I wonder if now TV directors don't ask people they film to present a more high-tech image using "state of the art" gear as well as being very photogenic,etc. It's the tendency and tends to become the norm.

 

[Hoodoo]

That's why I like to shop at Army Navy Surplus stores. I can simulate that world worn look... :rolmao: ): :rolmao:

 

[Adi007]

That's why I like to shop at Army Navy Surplus stores. I can simulate that world worn look... :rolmao: ): :rolmao:

): :rolmao: :super:

Throw some bleech and rocks in with your gear for the same effect!

 

[Gary]

CHEATS NEVER PROSPER - good idea though, now were are my rocks!!

Hey, stone washed M65 - COOL! :super:

 

[Hoodoo]

Now if someone could just tell me how to reverse the process on my body. :shock:

 

[acw_akkermans]

I don't think finishing a course qualifies anybody.

The real learning on good courses starts at home. A good course can show you the skill, and teach you how to use that skill. Often a lot of these skills require further home practise in order to actually master the skill rather then know the skill. That is part of what makes bushcraft so exciting I believe.

That's why I run a course where people can come and live using only this skills and no modern equipment. It really gives people the chance (I should say the need) to practise these skills and test them to their extreme.

The course set-up is easy. If the students don't manage to make a fire using natural resources only (Stone knife to carve, hand made cordage from plant fibers etc.), then we'll be cold... (Though I do give in often and light a fire if the students haven't managed all day...) So it goes for all necessary skills.
On average, it takes the group three days to set up camp, and have all the vitals sorted out (Shelter, Fire, Water and food) The rest of the course is then used to turn this survival camp into a comfortable camp. (Making mattressess, making backrests, more efficient pottery, etc, etc,...)
By the end of the week, the group is living much like a comunity of primitive people may have done. IE, we're settled into a daily routine to refresh supplies, and we have a lot of time to learn intricate skills and have fun in our primitive environment.

Even a course as advanced as that may not qualify a person for all challenges that may lie ahead... The situation could be so different then it was on the course. You could have a broken arm, be stuck in a snowstorm, etc..

This begs the next question, what's concidered "qualified"? I reckon you can't answer that question. If qualified means you could surive anywhere, then there wouldn't be one qualified person to have ever walked the Earth... Is it possible that being qualified in these skills is a state of mind??

Many regards,

Anthonio Akkermans

 

[Paganwolf]

Very true Antonio, Just because you have a piece of paper saying you have completed a course doesn't make you competent IMO it just means you have completed the course, saying your a qualified Bushcrafter is like saying your qualified in life! Our chosen subject is so diverse and varied and constantly changing it would be an impossibility to structure a complete comprehensive bushcraft course as it covers a plethora of different subjects, Botany, many types of crafts, primitive history, mycology, to name but a few each subject huge in its own right its a jack of all trades subject which needs to be practiced and played with, each one of us as far as i can see is in our own way qualified, every one has something to give and their own specialized subject we are the Bushcraft borg :borgsmile