bush Medicine

[PJMCBear]

You'd be better off crushing the leaf that stung you and rubbing the juices on the affected area. The juice contains an antihistamine.

whose knowledge stretches from using dock leaves on a nettle sting to... using dock leaves on a nettle sting.

 

[Miyagi]

You'd be better off crushing the leaf that stung you and rubbing the juices on the affected area. The juice contains an antihistamine.

That sounds awfy like using the hair of the dog that bit you, if you will.

Won't I get even more nettle stings by crushing one?

I like the idea behind it though.

My Grandparents used to say that the Dock grows near the nettle for a reason.

Next time I'm stung by a Nettle I'll give that a try - you're as well getting hung for a sheep as for a lamb.

Mind you I much prefer lamb to mutton.

Cheers

Liam

 

[Toddy]

Best maybe not try it with Hogweed though

cheers,
M

 

[Miyagi]

Best maybe not try it with Hogweed though

cheers,
M

Hahahhahaaa

Not if I can help it Toddy!! **shivers**....

Many moons ago a pal of mine made a peashooter out of a Hogweed stalk, and ended up in A&E for a day or two. He had lips like an inflatable dinghy for a while.

To this day he's still known as "Satchmo", (his nickname was his father's idea not ours).

atb

Liam

 

[bushcraftbob]

Id like to see a sticky on this subject too. I remember reading about a medicinal use for birch bark? but cant remember what its used for? Anyone know?

 

[Miyagi]

Id like to see a sticky on this subject too. I remember reading about a medicinal use for birch bark? but cant remember what its used for? Anyone know?

Are you thinking of fresh birch polypore that grows on Birch?

Cut into strips and used as a natural plaster/band aid/elastoplast.

Liam


EDIT; I know about dock leaves and birch polypore. That's my sum toal of bush medicine.

 

[jonajuna]

Unless one is a qualified Medical Herbalist it is illegal to prescribe, or to advise someone to use, any herbal preparation or substance.

What can be discussed I believe without any problems, are the traditional uses of plants, modern research and personal experience.

If anyone knows otherwise speak up or, "forever haud yer wheesht", as we say

herbs and plants (unless specified in certain acts, such as cannabis or liberty caps) are not subject to the 'medicines act' therefore anyone can set themselves up to advise, sell and distribute herbal remedies. else how would Holland and Barrett exist? or the hundreds of Chinese herbalists

only substances controlled under the Medicines Act as a POM (prescription only medicine) are subject to only being legal to being sold by a pharmacist upon production of a legal prescription

to expand on this... there isnt actually any legally required regulation of any of the "natural therapists" at all, anyone can call themselves anything they like (a noted exception being acupuncture due to local government health laws (because it draws blood, its along the same lines as piercing and tattooing, although like those practices, the stringency and application of the legal framework is patchy)

so beware who you go to see and pay over your money for advice that at best might be useless and at worst harmful

personally, i would only see someone who was state registered already in some way, there are many GP's out there that are also herbalists. that way they should be accountable for far more of their actions. of course this isnt to say there are not excellent practitioners to be found

 

[Toddy]

It is illegal to prescribe.

That does not mean that one cannot suggest that a specific herb might be worth investigating for oneself.

There's a huge difference.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[jonajuna]

i know its off topic, but "illegal to prescribe"

i prescribe controlled drugs daily on nhs scripts, i can (as any prescriber) prescribe drugs (POMS and CDs) on any "prescription" i like, a piece of paper with my name, address and registration number will do

what law is there that means stops anyone from writing on a piece of paper, "take the "dietary supplement"* 3 times a day". im not even aware that there is any state requiremnt to register as a herbalist or the like... part of the problem with many alternative/complimentary therapies... there is no meaningful registrant bodies, just voluntary ones

*herbal remedies in the uk are classed as nothing more as far as i know, as long as not restricted in some other way such as being a controlled drug (cannabis, opium poppy heads, coca)

of course, some should be prescription only such as st johns wort, for some, as potent as any pharmaceutical antidepressant

 

[demographic]

I have the herbal pharmacopeia among other books, I'll see what it advises.

Is that THIS one?

I'm pretty sure I remember you mentioning that book before and I had it stored in my book wish list, problem was our computer croaked and I lost the link and forgot the name of the book.

IIRC, you said that it was all done in a scientific manner and not all wishy washy hippy yoghurt weaver stuff? Those are my words, not yours as I'm sure you were rather more tactful than I but the meaning was pretty close.

Looks like I know what book I'm after again, I'll see if I can get the library to get it in so I can have a look at it before I put my hand in my rather empty pocket.

Thanks for mentioning it again.

 

[adderrustler]

i thought prescriber's were only allowed to Prescribe vitamins etc, not controlled drugs, even Pharmacists are not allowed to prescribe.

Maybe i am wrong but i dont think so

 

[Toddy]

I believe the difference is medicine or supplement.
If it's considered the former then prescribing must be done by a physician or a qualified medical herbalist.
If it's considered a supplement then anyone may say take this.

The legality bit is if something goes wrong then whoever 'prescribed' is legally responsible. Quite apart from the do not harm ethic, how many folks actually carry liability insurance that covers themselves for giving bad advice ?
This forum is a very open place, I have no idea how many people have, or will, read this thread, and may take heed of any herbal advice given in it.
I have no idea of who they are, what pre-existing medical conditions they may have, how any drugs they may take might interact with herbs I say they can take for x, y or z.

The law is supposed to change in April though.
http://www.nimh.org.uk/

There is also the controversy over the Codex Alimentarius. It seems like the relevant bit on herbs and supplements is lifted straight from an EU proposal that didn't quite work.


I would suggest that if this subject really interests you, buy a copy of Where there is no doctor and actually read it. Then start to be aware of your own healthh and the effects of the resources around you that might be of use if needed.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[demographic]

buy a copy of Where there is no doctor and actually read it. Then start to be aware of your own health and the effects of the resources around you that might be of use if needed.

I just hit Google with that title and came up with this THIS PDF file.

I take it that its the same thing?
Looks good anyway, cheers.

 

[jonajuna]

i thought prescriber's were only allowed to Prescribe vitamins etc, not controlled drugs, even Pharmacists are not allowed to prescribe.

Maybe i am wrong but i dont think so

im an independant/supplementary prescriber, i can prescribe anything to anyone for any condition "within the limits of my areas of expertise" (and with certain controlled drugs for certain conditions "only" under supplementary arrangements) the cd limitation was meant to me changed several years ago, still waiting on the governemnt to stop building duck house and cleaning their moats to get round to changing the law!

in other words, although i am not a doctor (and dont pretent to be).... within the bounderies of my experience, i can do anything a doctor can do... im just paid a tiny fraction of what they earn

I believe the difference is medicine or supplement.
If it's considered the former then prescribing must be done by a physician or a qualified medical herbalist.
If it's considered a supplement then anyone may say take this.

if it is a substance that is considered a medicine under the medcines act, then only a GMC registered doctor can prescribe it a NMC registered nuse or midwife (with V300 prescribing license) a reg dentist/vet or suitably qualified pharmacist.

if anyone that does not hold the appropriate legal authority provides another with a POM drug... they are breaking the law and can be arrested and face jail time

although, as far as my knowledge (good enough) of the BNF gioes, there are no current "herbal substances" that are listed under POM or even under the general sales list (GSL) as drugs/medications

therefore, anyone can "prescribe", "dispense" or sell herbal substances as they are either classed as supplements or even straight forward food stuffs (subject of course to normal food stabndards regs)

The legality bit is if something goes wrong then whoever 'prescribed' is legally responsible. Quite apart from the do not harm ethic, how many folks actually carry liability insurance that covers themselves for giving bad advice ?

but this only applies to those that are "prescribers" in the sense of the word... as discussed, it isnt a prescription as such, as they are not medications

of course, this doesnt stop you being held criminally accountable for your actions unto another, regardless of circumstance (as is the case in the recent court case highlighted on the NIMH page (bad acronym theyve chosen btw... i read it first as the national institute of mental health ) [/QUOTE]

This forum is a very open place, I have no idea how many people have, or will, read this thread, and may take heed of any herbal advice given in it.
I have no idea of who they are, what pre-existing medical conditions they may have, how any drugs they may take might interact with herbs I say they can take for x, y or z.

indeed and neither would you be expected to know the ins and outs (unless you are a medical doctor or another prescriber as described earlier) of other medications.......

but then, me as a prescriber of POMs and CDs would still not be expected to know what new herbal concotion my clients have just picked up from the chinese herbalist would interact with their prescribed medications... of course, professionally i should endeavour to check them out

do any prescribers ask about normal diet? grapefruit, as a well known example, is significant pharmacodynamically

The law is supposed to change in April though.
http://www.nimh.org.uk/

There is also the controversy over the Codex Alimentarius. It seems like the relevant bit on herbs and supplements is lifted straight from an EU proposal that didn't quite work.

agreed the law is to change as the NIMH seem to have been demanding for some time. i suspect if regulation is tightened up and clinically significant substances are to be controlled, this will require a more formal and equitable training package as well

as NIMH themselves indicate, currently there is only voluntary registration and monitoring, so anyone can call themselves a herbalist and treat people.

i will be interested to see how the "medical" label is applied with formal regulation... even people like me have to specify we are "non medical prescribers" as legally the application of the term medical refers to a medical doctor registered with the GMC or a secondary 'professional allied to medicine' undertaking certain proceedures such as a "medical radiographer"

i suspect that herbalists appling that title will need to be a doctor of medicine as well as herbalist

it will be good as it will protect the public


as it stands though, there is no legal restrictions on writing a list of herbal products to take unless they are listed as being a POM or CD ...... even nytol is on the GSL


off topic and my apologies, but its an interesting topic, hence why i like my job (although need more money!!! lol )

 

[alecf]

I know that giving asprin to someone having a heart attack can increase their chances of survival because it thins the blood, and so could the same effect be got from willow bark? Or does it take too long to get the active ingredient from willow bark?

 

[Toddy]

Yet a first aid course will tell you that you may not give someone something like an aspirin, even in extremis, you may however offer them to the person to take for themselves.........willow takes longer, you have to chew it or turn it into tea to release the salicyns.


Jonajuna, this is clearly a topic dear to you, I disagree with many of your points.

Basically if I follow your advice and I say that someone can take, ooooh, say hemlock water dropwart, for whatever, and someone does so, I am in no way liable ??
Or if I tell someone to take something that turns out to be an abortifacient ??? or causes bleeding from the stomach or bowel ? or causes dermatitits ?

 

[Mahikan]

Hi,

I'm the newbie to this site, but I'm not a newbie to bush medicine, so I thought I'd put in some info as well. I'm a Cree Indian mix-blood from Canada and have a long lineage in native medicine, (also decided to become involved with Medical Herbalism). I guess the most important thing for one to consider is that when we are using bush medicine at the layman's level it really is the first aid approach (perfectly reasonable approach of course) and there are a few little intricacies that should be considered.

For example the use of willow for its salicylates (good bit of info on the Meadowsweet for Aspirin - by the way, the compound that you refer to that is similar to the salicyns in willow actually is a type of salicyn called spirin found in meadowsweet, and the A in aspirin comes from the acetyl group added into the compound and thus the two added together make up the word aspirin)... but I digress.. Anyway, using willow as a pain relief is an excellent choice amongst many others, and in fact it has fantastic results both as an external and internal application for rheumatoid arthritis. Two cautions though: Never use willow on someone who has gouty arthritis (it aggravates the condition) and also if someone is allergic to aspirin, then any plant that contains salicyns will produce the same reaction (our liver and digestive system convert the salicyns to salicylic acid).

Sorry for the encyclopedia, but I thought it important that folks really look at the plants they use on a regular basis and become familiar with all aspects of them, when best to use, when not to use etc

Mahikan

 

[EdS]

RE: asprin and mycocardial infraction (heart attack) it is 100mg chewed not justed swallowed - let them take it even if they ae "allegic" to asprin as the side effects are outweighed by the benefits BUT let teh ambulance/paramedic know it was taken and at what time.

As for plants - just what out for Wild Life and Countryside Act. More and more peopleare getting procescued for collecting wild plants. Also get permission (we all know the rules) - last year I think it was 2 old ladies got done for theft for taking cuttings from a NT property.

 

[Mahikan]

RE: asprin and mycocardial infraction (heart attack) it is 100mg chewed not justed swallowed - let them take it even if they ae "allegic" to asprin as the side effects are outweighed by the benefits BUT let teh ambulance/paramedic know it was taken and at what time.

As for plants - just what out for Wild Life and Countryside Act. More and more peopleare getting procescued for collecting wild plants. Also get permission (we all know the rules) - last year I think it was 2 old ladies got done for theft for taking cuttings from a NT property.

I think that it is important to be careful with allergies to aspirin, depending on the type of allergic reaction, if the person becomes anaphylactic, then you exacerbate the condition and the person will die. So I don't always advocate aspirin or willow if a person can have a serious and systemic allergic reaction.

 

[EdS]

very very few people have a sever allergy to aspirin - most "allergy" sufferer are sensitive but do not have full blown allergy. Also remember with MI it should be treated with O2 at the scene anyway.

Always check first to see if the casualty has a known "allergy" to Non steroidal anti-inflammatory or aspirin itself. Also ask about stomach ulcers or stomach bleeding. Worth checking about taking blood thinners - they may well already have taken GTN or aspirin.

To be honest leave giving the aspirin to the medic crew - normal aspirins aren't 100mg anyway.