Just a quick question for those more technically minded than myself.
Do meths stoves produce Carbon Monoxide if used in a confined area?
Do meths stoves produce Carbon Monoxide if used in a confined area?
Burning Meths and Carbon Monoxide?
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yes would be the short answer, i was under the impression that they don't but was proven to be very wrong by the carbon monoxide detector in my living room quite recently. the best bit being that the damn thing is hard wired in and took us a good half an hour to disconnect, i thought the poor dog was going to go mad!
stuart
stuart
Just a quick question for those more technically minded than myself.
Do meths stoves produce Carbon Monoxide if used in a confined area?
Wouldn't of thought so as carbon monoxide is created when the burning of carbon has little oxygen- but i'm not positive although i have used them indoors many times
Hmm.. It's not just me then, this does not seem to be straight forward.
I think we need a chemist's opinion to be sure.
I think we need a chemist's opinion to be sure.
restaurants still use them (I know they are larger areas/volumes but there will be far more units burning)... yes it will give off CO2 but not Monoxide ( Complete combustion of ethanol forms carbon dioxide and water vapour:
C2H5OH (l) + 3 O2 (g) → 2 CO2 (g) + 3 H2O) but I doubt it can be that bad or H&S would have banned them years ago. I'd say if there was ventilation you would be fine. Pretty much every gas appliance used for camping stipulates that they should only be used outside or in areas with good ventilation...but most will be used in a tent at some time or other.
Just a thought
Sack
Run a check on ethanol/methanol but I'm pretty sure
C2H5OH (l) + 3 O2 (g) → 2 CO2 (g) + 3 H2O) but I doubt it can be that bad or H&S would have banned them years ago. I'd say if there was ventilation you would be fine. Pretty much every gas appliance used for camping stipulates that they should only be used outside or in areas with good ventilation...but most will be used in a tent at some time or other.
Just a thought
Sack
Run a check on ethanol/methanol but I'm pretty sure
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The burning eyes could be put down to the evaporated meths rather than the product of the burnt meths...the bad head...well the label does say not to drink it mate
The burning eyes could be put down to the evaporated meths rather than the product of the burnt meths...the bad head...well the label does say not to drink it mate
Lol, we ran out of water
unless you burn almost all the O2 on the room (which is very unlikely) you wont start producing CO
at least from a chemical point of view
at least from a chemical point of view
ok firstly, CO (carbon monoxide) is produced as a result of incomplete combustion. this is because there is not enough oxygen, in theory there shouldn't be any carbon monoxide produced but the fact is there will be trace amounts produced. the best thing i can say is better safe than sorry, try and use them outside where possible. if you're confined inside, open some windows or doors. carbon monoxide poisoning is brutal, it can't be smelled or seen but it will kill you if you inhale it. Take care campers.
ok firstly, CO (carbon monoxide) is produced as a result of incomplete combustion. this is because there is not enough oxygen, in theory there shouldn't be any carbon monoxide produced but the fact is there will be trace amounts produced. the best thing i can say is better safe than sorry, try and use them outside where possible. if you're confined inside, open some windows or doors. carbon monoxide poisoning is brutal, it can't be smelled or seen but it will kill you if you inhale it. Take care campers.
basically what i said, with an added safety warning
i believe that you can still get carbon monoxide when there are sufficient levels of O2 in a room, the monoxide is due to incomplete combustion at the burner rather than the ammount of O2 in the room, which is why you get carbon monoxide build up in room, not counting the fact that carbon monoxide binds more readely to the red blood cells than O2 which does make it worse. I can try to check out any facts and figures at work tomorrow if thats any help?
CO will try and combust further to CO2 though if there is sufficinet O2 and energy, at least thats how i understand it from A level chemistry.
Not quite, you can still get carbon monoxide build up in an area with ventelation due to an in-efficency in the burner. the ventelation would reduce the effect to a confined space by having a flow through of fresh air but it would still mean the burner would be producing harmfull levels of carbon monoxide, fine under your tarp not so good in a snug debris shelter.basically what i said, with an added safety warning
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There is a study on this on Backpackinglite.com where they tested lots of different alcohol stoves for CO but I am not subcribed and cant accesss the page.
Carbon monoxide basically binds with your haemoglobin - and stays there. So your blood is transporting lots of CO around instead of the oxygen you need to supply your cells. You don't need a lot of it to accumulate to toxic levels in your blood.
Wikipedia says that 667 parts per million of CO in the air can tie up 50% of your blood's carrying capacity. That's not a lot. For comparison, there's 390 parts per million of Carbon Dioxide in normal atmospheric air, which equates to 0.04% of total air volume. If my maths are right, if just 0.07% of the air in your room/tent/whatever is Carbon Monoxide, you will feel very ill.
I think the key to Carbon Monoxide production is high temperature. It's produced by cigarettes, internal combustion engines, coal fires etc. When my Swedish Army meths stove gets going it burns like a blast furnace...
So, yeah - I think we need to be careful. On the other hand, meths stoves aren't used for very long. 10 minutes for a brew - you can't get significantly more than that out of one before you have to refuel anyway. The real danger with Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a dodgy gas appliance, for example, burning all night so that your house slowly builds up with CO and kills you by cumulative effect while you sleep. I'll bet your CO alarm was responding to a spike of gas from your stove which if allowed to persist would be dangerous, rather than responding to a short term danger - if that makes sense.
So - my conclusion is, take sensible precautions, but don't go overboard. Brew up next to the doorway with the flap open, but don't feel you need to hunch under your poncho in a downpour to make a cup of tea.
Wikipedia says that 667 parts per million of CO in the air can tie up 50% of your blood's carrying capacity. That's not a lot. For comparison, there's 390 parts per million of Carbon Dioxide in normal atmospheric air, which equates to 0.04% of total air volume. If my maths are right, if just 0.07% of the air in your room/tent/whatever is Carbon Monoxide, you will feel very ill.
I think the key to Carbon Monoxide production is high temperature. It's produced by cigarettes, internal combustion engines, coal fires etc. When my Swedish Army meths stove gets going it burns like a blast furnace...
So, yeah - I think we need to be careful. On the other hand, meths stoves aren't used for very long. 10 minutes for a brew - you can't get significantly more than that out of one before you have to refuel anyway. The real danger with Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a dodgy gas appliance, for example, burning all night so that your house slowly builds up with CO and kills you by cumulative effect while you sleep. I'll bet your CO alarm was responding to a spike of gas from your stove which if allowed to persist would be dangerous, rather than responding to a short term danger - if that makes sense.
So - my conclusion is, take sensible precautions, but don't go overboard. Brew up next to the doorway with the flap open, but don't feel you need to hunch under your poncho in a downpour to make a cup of tea.
Short answer: yes.
For as far as I know, in practice, fuel combustion is never complete. Hence the need for filters/catalysts in combustion engine cars (an average camping stove won't easily beat a modern car engine as far as optimising the burning process goes).
To optimise oxidation (in this case the formation of CO2) you want lots of oxygen (a stoichiometric lean fuel mixture) and high combustion temperatures. Burning gas works better than burning liquid fuel (it's more efficient). Gas combustion is therefore more complete, resulting in less CO formation. So when burning meths, you want to transform them into gas before combustion. As all burner geeks know, you'll need pre heating of the meths for that. So you can use a Trangia style burner with pre heating chamber if you want to minimize CO formation while also making sure there is enough fresh air going towards the flame (by aiming the holes in your windscreen to the wind). Having a chimney effect around the burner which sucks in more fresh oxygen rich air should also help.
Remaining question probably is how much CO is formed in which conditions. The answer depends on burner type, fuel mixture, room temperature, amount and speed of fresh air delivered, ...
Might also be interesting, quote from Wikipedia about CO concentrations from a couple of sources:
Note the exhaust from a home wood fire! Wood fires have an important contribution to the bad air quality in third world homes and fancy bushcraft tipi's
For as far as I know, in practice, fuel combustion is never complete. Hence the need for filters/catalysts in combustion engine cars (an average camping stove won't easily beat a modern car engine as far as optimising the burning process goes).
To optimise oxidation (in this case the formation of CO2) you want lots of oxygen (a stoichiometric lean fuel mixture) and high combustion temperatures. Burning gas works better than burning liquid fuel (it's more efficient). Gas combustion is therefore more complete, resulting in less CO formation. So when burning meths, you want to transform them into gas before combustion. As all burner geeks know, you'll need pre heating of the meths for that. So you can use a Trangia style burner with pre heating chamber if you want to minimize CO formation while also making sure there is enough fresh air going towards the flame (by aiming the holes in your windscreen to the wind). Having a chimney effect around the burner which sucks in more fresh oxygen rich air should also help.
Remaining question probably is how much CO is formed in which conditions. The answer depends on burner type, fuel mixture, room temperature, amount and speed of fresh air delivered, ...
Might also be interesting, quote from Wikipedia about CO concentrations from a couple of sources:
ppm = parts per million
Note the exhaust from a home wood fire! Wood fires have an important contribution to the bad air quality in third world homes and fancy bushcraft tipi's
Very little is produced and obviously your not cooking in a sealed room so don't worry about it. For fun I've heated a back room with a marine alcohol heater and no problems running flat out it for five or six hours at a time.
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