Burning Meths and Carbon Monoxide?

[Zingmo]

Just a thought, If something surposedly burns to give off CO2 , if it produces soot ie carbon ( C ) because of incomplete combustion, the intermediate stage is probably CO Carbon Monoxide .

MB

Yep. A yellow smoky flame is a sure sign of CO production. I am wondering what the effect of diluting the meths with water is on CO production.

Just an aside; If you are a smoker and you're reading this, your blood carboxyheamoglobin levels are already dangerously high!

Z

 

[ged]

Stuart's carbon monoxide detector is right. But it's probably very sensitive. There's no point saying things like "I've cooked for a month on a meths stove in my home in France" -- which is what I did in January and February this year -- because the CO production depends very strongly on local conditions, as has already been said, around the burner and the concentration in the air also depends on ventilation. My take on it is that if you have reasonably good ventilation in the area where you're using the meths stove then you won't need to worry. But I'd be very reluctant to sleep with one going for any length of time in the same room. If you're using one of the Trangia style burners then there's a limit to how much carbon monoxide it can produce. Even if half of its exhaust gas is dioxide and half monoxide, by my quick calculations on the back of this, er, fag packet I reckon it would produce about 15 grammes of monoxide. If you're in a room containing 30 cubic metres of air (call it 30kg) then you'll have about 0.05% (500ppm) carbon monoxide. Starting to get into headache territory and definitely not to be ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/34/indoor_air_pollution

More than you ever wanted to know here:

http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm

 

[Shewie]

Stuart's carbon monoxide detector is right. But it's probably very sensitive. There's no point saying things like "I've cooked for a month on a meths stove in my home in France" -- which is what I did in January and February this year -- because the CO production depends very strongly on local conditions, as has already been said, around the burner and the concentration in the air also depends on ventilation. My take on it is that if you have reasonably good ventilation in the area where you're using the meths stove then you won't need to worry. But I'd be very reluctant to sleep with one going for any length of time in the same room. If you're using one of the Trangia style burners then there's a limit to how much carbon monoxide it can produce. Even if half of its exhaust gas is dioxide and half monoxide, by my quick calculations on the back of this, er, fag packet I reckon it would produce about 15 grammes of monoxide. If you're in a room containing 30 cubic metres of air (call it 30kg) then you'll have about 0.05% (500ppm) carbon monoxide. Starting to get into headache territory and definitely not to be ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/34/indoor_air_pollution

More than you ever wanted to know here:

http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm

Slightly off topic Ged but is it right that meths is dirt cheap over in France ? Is it still coloured ?

 

[ged]

Slightly off topic Ged but is it right that meths is dirt cheap over in France ? Is it still coloured ?

Funny you should ask that, it's just been mentioned in another thread here.

I wouldn't call it dirt cheap, and considering that there's such a lot of tax on road fuel I think what I pay in France must still be a rip-off because it's not far off the price of road fuel. Granted, though, it's sold off a shelf in small quantities in plastic bottles. I pay just under seven Euros (about UKL 5.83 at today's exchange rate) for a 5 litre container of what they call "burning alcohol" (alcool à brûler) which is essentially meths. It isn't dyed like meths is in the UK and it smells a lot nicer. The burning alcohol claims to be 84% ethanol and less than 5% methanol. I guess the rest is water. There's another common product mainly used for cleaning (alcool ménager), it's 90% ethanol and is quite a bit more expensive -- but still a lot less than the prices they charge for meths in the likes of B&Q. It's fine for burning too, but it seems like a waste to me when I can get the cheaper stuff at the same place.

 

[Paul_B]

Personally I keep burning stoves away from tents anyway. It takes little effort to cook outside or even in an open tent porch. There is also a difference in what is safe and what affects your health. At work a faulty space heater was pumping CO out that collected via a small 4" hole in the wall into the upstairs offices. It collected in a room over time and the testo readings saw it build up from about 15-20ppm to 29ppm before we turned it off. For months before the two of us in that office had been experiencing headaches that could not be explained that went shortly after leaving ofr home. It was put down to the space heater and even that low reading. It seems it had been at about 15-20ppm for months but when it got cold and was turned up that day it spiked at about 30ppm. Not much but by elimination of the source (space heater) it reduced pretty soon afterwards. Anyway I guess that shows how effective the CO is at binding to heamoglobin. 200 times the affinity of O2 at standard temps and pressures IIRC. I know of a guy who got CO poisoning spent a few hours in a local dving centre hyperbaric chamber got sent home then ended up with a high speed helicopter ride to the police HQ where their dive team were based to spend about 3 days at higher pressures and higher O2 concentrations. It is serious in higher concentrations but even in what is considered safe according to H&S recommendations and limits you can still fel some affects. Not worth it just to keep your hair dry IMHO.

 

[Wayland]

Thanks for all that info everyone, lots to digest there.

For a little bit of context, I'm taking a Tatonka Trangia clone with me on the Arctic course next year and I was wondering if it was safe to use in a snow hole if the weather is howling.

From what has been said I might risk a single burn but probably not good for sustained use.

 

[rik_uk3]

If thats the stainless steel clone take a Trangia burner, they perform better in the cold than the Tatonka burner. You'll have your safety candle plus ventilation in the snow hole so you will be fine. Personally I'd take a multifuel Trangia burner for those conditions or mount a Nova/Omnifuel in the Tatonka set if your going to be melting a lot of snow.
http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/trangia_...urrency=GBP&country=GBR&SelectedBundle=108698 No problem over there getting fuel, liquid fuel stoves are extremely popular.

 

[Wayland]

The only Trangia I have is the one from the Military cook set, I'm not sure how well that one compares but thanks for the advice.