Just been reading Dan Pulpett's article on bringing back Britain's large carnivores in the christmas issue of BSS mag. I'm all in favour ... what do you feel?
Bringing back Britain's large carnivores
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I'm afraid Britain's large carnivores are absent for two simple reasons: not enough habitat left, and too many people. Neither of those is going to be reversed, so it won't happen.
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Ummm - which ones would those be? Wolves? ignoring the practicalities of it, I personally probably wouldn't have a problem, although I can see those with dogs being unhappy at Fido providing fodder for the wildlife!. Bears? Probably not - can't be doing with all that bear-proof containers/hanging food in trees etc and - with our laws - no access to defensive weapons or even pepper spray.
Harvestman is right, we need to reduce the human population (and the number of miles of TarMacadam) on these isles before we can even begin to redress the imbalances that we've perpetrated in the past few hundred years.
But I'm all in favour.
But I'm all in favour.
I agree, another good read here on bringing them back.
http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/articles/why_do_we_need_large_carnivores.htm
RM
http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/articles/why_do_we_need_large_carnivores.htm
RM
By the sounds of it, I'd be all in favour of BSS using some up to date material.
Dan's words were in the national press years ago regarding this matter.
No, I don't think it's a feasible idea.
It sounds wonderously Eden like, but the reality is that for millenia mankind has altered these islands to suit itself.
Funny too how it's always suggested by folks from outside a region saying that areas like Cairngorm, Skye, Snowdonia and the like are where they should be reintroduced. Those areas aren't empty of people, their families or their livestock. Simply a little more spread out; but they'll be the ones at the sharp end, and having little compunction in shooting the carnivore that comes too close to them and theirs. Can't blame them either.
How long do you think it would take predators to suss out there's a good supply of tethered/fenced in food available ? Not long I reckon.
It wasn't because the wolves were hunting deer that they were killed off, but they did have a real good taste for the woolly speedbumps and calves.
The reports are still available to read of the last of them being shot. Around about the time of the Jacobite uprisings in the early 18th century.
If they didn't stick to the deer then, they are unlikely to do so now.
Bears likewise, there's a clash of food sources, basically the woodlands aren't berry rich, and good fishing is sought after.
Scotland at least (Snowdonia, Lakes, etc., too) has the right of responsible access, and it's being very well used
From solitary adults to families with young children, they all wander both the land and waters. It's encouraged; we are a very urbanised people, to get folks active outdoors is a good thing
I think all too often it is forgotten that we are an island people. We have no easy access to 'more' land, so what we do have is much used and carnivores that compete with humanity are always going to be on a sticky wicket.
If the lands cannot support genetically diverse breeding populations of the carnivores then it's a very poor outlook for them anyway.
One pack won't do, half a dozen bears won't do, iimmc.
Wildcats are already in real problems with 'genetic purity', but at least some of their genes do survive in the mixbreed felines.
Zoos sometimes get a bad name, but I suspect they're the only hope for wolves and bears here, now.
cheers,
Toddy
It sounds wonderously Eden like, but the reality is that for millenia mankind has altered these islands to suit itself.
Funny too how it's always suggested by folks from outside a region saying that areas like Cairngorm, Skye, Snowdonia and the like are where they should be reintroduced. Those areas aren't empty of people, their families or their livestock. Simply a little more spread out; but they'll be the ones at the sharp end, and having little compunction in shooting the carnivore that comes too close to them and theirs. Can't blame them either.
How long do you think it would take predators to suss out there's a good supply of tethered/fenced in food available ? Not long I reckon.
It wasn't because the wolves were hunting deer that they were killed off, but they did have a real good taste for the woolly speedbumps and calves.
The reports are still available to read of the last of them being shot. Around about the time of the Jacobite uprisings in the early 18th century.
If they didn't stick to the deer then, they are unlikely to do so now.
Bears likewise, there's a clash of food sources, basically the woodlands aren't berry rich, and good fishing is sought after.
Scotland at least (Snowdonia, Lakes, etc., too) has the right of responsible access, and it's being very well used
From solitary adults to families with young children, they all wander both the land and waters. It's encouraged; we are a very urbanised people, to get folks active outdoors is a good thing I think all too often it is forgotten that we are an island people. We have no easy access to 'more' land, so what we do have is much used and carnivores that compete with humanity are always going to be on a sticky wicket.
If the lands cannot support genetically diverse breeding populations of the carnivores then it's a very poor outlook for them anyway.
One pack won't do, half a dozen bears won't do, iimmc.
Wildcats are already in real problems with 'genetic purity', but at least some of their genes do survive in the mixbreed felines.
Zoos sometimes get a bad name, but I suspect they're the only hope for wolves and bears here, now.
cheers,
Toddy
Can we bring back Sharks as we used to be a Tropical Sea
or how about polar bears most of the country was under 2 miles of ice 8000 yrs ago
sorry we should really consider any animal gone from the system over a certain time not indigenous as the Eco system has moved on and its reintroduction may be as bad as the introduction of a foreign species that is illegal and causes catastrophic effects.
nature is an ever changing thing it will put wolves where it wants and if not something else
one day man will be extinct and Nature wont have noticed
or how about polar bears most of the country was under 2 miles of ice 8000 yrs ago
sorry we should really consider any animal gone from the system over a certain time not indigenous as the Eco system has moved on and its reintroduction may be as bad as the introduction of a foreign species that is illegal and causes catastrophic effects.
nature is an ever changing thing it will put wolves where it wants and if not something else
one day man will be extinct and Nature wont have noticed
I respect others opinions, but I also think people tend to accept the status quo, rather than think for themselves, and ask the right questions.
To debate fully, you would have to discuss many issues, before you even got to the wolves, including the notion of 'Private Property' maybe Marx vs Locke, Proudhon, etc, Land ownership, The General Enclosures acts, who benefited from the general enclosures acts, how and why, [which itself is indefensable.]
Then understand how this country operates in such a manner that the poorest taxpayers fund the richest largest landowners.
Throw in the Corn Laws, a history of argiculture, the monetary system, [what is money?] and a hundred other issues, and I would still believe wolves have a right to exist, over and above our requirement to 'increase profits'
I seem to remember reading, the amount of GDP for agriculture, in the UK accounts for as little as 3% these days?
This is an interesting article, as it concerns an area of yorkshire I am familiar with:
To debate fully, you would have to discuss many issues, before you even got to the wolves, including the notion of 'Private Property' maybe Marx vs Locke, Proudhon, etc, Land ownership, The General Enclosures acts, who benefited from the general enclosures acts, how and why, [which itself is indefensable.]
Then understand how this country operates in such a manner that the poorest taxpayers fund the richest largest landowners.
Throw in the Corn Laws, a history of argiculture, the monetary system, [what is money?] and a hundred other issues, and I would still believe wolves have a right to exist, over and above our requirement to 'increase profits'
I seem to remember reading, the amount of GDP for agriculture, in the UK accounts for as little as 3% these days?
This is an interesting article, as it concerns an area of yorkshire I am familiar with:
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It is an interesting read Dave, I find social history fascinating, and I would like to see the references associated with that article.
Please bear in mind the no politics rule on here though.
cheers,
Toddy
Please bear in mind the no politics rule on here though.
cheers,
Toddy
Yes, that would be interesting. Afraid there was no list included. Just an article from a local newspaper I'd bookmarked a while back.
http://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.co.uk/leisure/countrymansdiary/9083050.print/
I dont see the point in this, they no longer live here because Man wiped them out, bringing them back as has been said to such a overcrowded isle would lead to man coming into conflict with them again either through attacks on livestock,or on humans which would lead to them being hunted agian totally stupid idea as far as im concerned.
The introduction of 'large carnivores' (& I suppose that is a euphemism for wolves) into the UK is just a nonsensical idea. The UK is now just a large garden full of sheep. Even the places that are considered 'wild ' including the highlands, are in fact artificial landscapes, heavily managed by man for his own financial interests. Even if we put aside all the conflictual interests of the land users, there just isn't anywhere wolves could live anymore.
There have been recurrent plans to release wolves into the Highlands to help control the deer populations, Introducing a non native species ( wolves have been absent from the UK long enough now to be considered non native) to regulate the numbers of another species( whos original habitat is woodland & not moorland) in an artificial enviroment would be criminal & history can show us where such animal introductions have taken place for similar reasons & were a complete disaster ecologically speaking. Human beings just do not understand how nature works & when we invariably cause inbalances, we seek solutions that usually end up worsening the situation.
Another problem would be inbreeding. There would have to be successive regular introductions to prevent it & then when the wolf populations became too large or spread to areas 'non designated" to them, they too would have to be ' culled' presumably by the same people who believed they could control the deer populations & then there is the slight problem of legalities, wolves being a protected species in Europe (Though when Cameron takes the UK out of the EU that may not be such a problem
)
So to conclude, I don't think we'll ever hear the haunting howls of wild wolves across the Glens again.
There have been recurrent plans to release wolves into the Highlands to help control the deer populations, Introducing a non native species ( wolves have been absent from the UK long enough now to be considered non native) to regulate the numbers of another species( whos original habitat is woodland & not moorland) in an artificial enviroment would be criminal & history can show us where such animal introductions have taken place for similar reasons & were a complete disaster ecologically speaking. Human beings just do not understand how nature works & when we invariably cause inbalances, we seek solutions that usually end up worsening the situation.
Another problem would be inbreeding. There would have to be successive regular introductions to prevent it & then when the wolf populations became too large or spread to areas 'non designated" to them, they too would have to be ' culled' presumably by the same people who believed they could control the deer populations & then there is the slight problem of legalities, wolves being a protected species in Europe (Though when Cameron takes the UK out of the EU that may not be such a problem
)So to conclude, I don't think we'll ever hear the haunting howls of wild wolves across the Glens again.
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I agree with much of what you say, Dave, especially about accepting the status quo, rather than thinking for themselves and asking the right questions. Sensing one's way down to roots there are indeed many human issues of things we have become comfortable with but which actually don't do us or the planet any good. We are continually putting sticking plaster and duct tape over the holes in our thinking ... ownership (which likely comes from when we began farming and coveted our neighbour's field) being a very fundamental one that is indefensable.
I'm one of the folk who is not happy with the status quo and does not wish to uphold the ways we've worked for last few millennia - I really would like a change.
I'm one of the folk who is not happy with the status quo and does not wish to uphold the ways we've worked for last few millennia - I really would like a change.
Mmmm ... my thoughts too on population reduction though I dare say Mother Planet has that in hand so I don't think we need to worry about how to do it
Do you consider yourself as amoung those to be culled ?
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