Bringing back Britain's large carnivores

[Elen Sentier]

Just been reading Dan Pulpett's article on bringing back Britain's large carnivores in the christmas issue of BSS mag. I'm all in favour ... what do you feel?

 

[Harvestman]

I'm afraid Britain's large carnivores are absent for two simple reasons: not enough habitat left, and too many people. Neither of those is going to be reversed, so it won't happen.

 

[Andy BB]

Ummm - which ones would those be? Wolves? ignoring the practicalities of it, I personally probably wouldn't have a problem, although I can see those with dogs being unhappy at Fido providing fodder for the wildlife!. Bears? Probably not - can't be doing with all that bear-proof containers/hanging food in trees etc and - with our laws - no access to defensive weapons or even pepper spray.

 

[ged]

Harvestman is right, we need to reduce the human population (and the number of miles of TarMacadam) on these isles before we can even begin to redress the imbalances that we've perpetrated in the past few hundred years.

But I'm all in favour.

 

[Rockmonkey]

I agree, another good read here on bringing them back.

http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/articles/why_do_we_need_large_carnivores.htm

RM

 

[Bushwhacker]

Just been reading Dan Pulpett's article on bringing back Britain's large carnivores in the christmas issue of BSS mag. I'm all in favour ... what do you feel?

By the sounds of it, I'd be all in favour of BSS using some up to date material.

Dan's words were in the national press years ago regarding this matter.

 

[Dave]

Love to see wolves reintroduced into Britain. [Shouldnt be up to us anyway. Theyve got as much right to be here as we have.]

We are a much poorer place for not having wolves, [and forests.]

Outdoors survival expert Ray Mears has warned that re-introducing wolves to Scotland could lead to public resentment of the animals.

Releasing wolves into the wild has been the subject of a long-standing debate among conservationists.

A Highlands estate shelved plans to introduce wolves earlier this year.
In the radio interview, Mr Mears questioned the reasons for bringing wolves back to Scotland.
He said: "If someone was saying we are releasing them because we think it will create an eco-system that was more harmonious and because their absence was felt in the landscape then I would agree with it.
"If we were releasing them because we want to see them, I don't think that is a good enough reason."
Mr Mears added: "When you release an apex predator you have to think how you are going to control it because it is going to do its thing.
"Often what happens in these situations you are going to have an animal that people then resent. I don't think we should condemn an animal because it is living to its nature."
Alladale Estate, at Ardgay in Sutherland, had proposed releasing four wolves from Romania in a secure area.
However, in May this the plan was dropped in the interests of the animals' welfare.

 

[Toddy]

No, I don't think it's a feasible idea.
It sounds wonderously Eden like, but the reality is that for millenia mankind has altered these islands to suit itself.

Funny too how it's always suggested by folks from outside a region saying that areas like Cairngorm, Skye, Snowdonia and the like are where they should be reintroduced. Those areas aren't empty of people, their families or their livestock. Simply a little more spread out; but they'll be the ones at the sharp end, and having little compunction in shooting the carnivore that comes too close to them and theirs. Can't blame them either.

How long do you think it would take predators to suss out there's a good supply of tethered/fenced in food available ? Not long I reckon.
It wasn't because the wolves were hunting deer that they were killed off, but they did have a real good taste for the woolly speedbumps and calves.
The reports are still available to read of the last of them being shot. Around about the time of the Jacobite uprisings in the early 18th century.
If they didn't stick to the deer then, they are unlikely to do so now.
Bears likewise, there's a clash of food sources, basically the woodlands aren't berry rich, and good fishing is sought after.

Scotland at least (Snowdonia, Lakes, etc., too) has the right of responsible access, and it's being very well used From solitary adults to families with young children, they all wander both the land and waters. It's encouraged; we are a very urbanised people, to get folks active outdoors is a good thing

I think all too often it is forgotten that we are an island people. We have no easy access to 'more' land, so what we do have is much used and carnivores that compete with humanity are always going to be on a sticky wicket.
If the lands cannot support genetically diverse breeding populations of the carnivores then it's a very poor outlook for them anyway.
One pack won't do, half a dozen bears won't do, iimmc.
Wildcats are already in real problems with 'genetic purity', but at least some of their genes do survive in the mixbreed felines.

Zoos sometimes get a bad name, but I suspect they're the only hope for wolves and bears here, now.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[slingback]

In this country there is no place for them as we stand, its a shame but a in my eyes a truth. No space and to many easy feeds for them in the form of livestocks, pets and idiots.

 

[FGYT]

Can we bring back Sharks as we used to be a Tropical Sea

or how about polar bears most of the country was under 2 miles of ice 8000 yrs ago

sorry we should really consider any animal gone from the system over a certain time not indigenous as the Eco system has moved on and its reintroduction may be as bad as the introduction of a foreign species that is illegal and causes catastrophic effects.

nature is an ever changing thing it will put wolves where it wants and if not something else

one day man will be extinct and Nature wont have noticed

 

[Dave]

I respect others opinions, but I also think people tend to accept the status quo, rather than think for themselves, and ask the right questions.

To debate fully, you would have to discuss many issues, before you even got to the wolves, including the notion of 'Private Property' maybe Marx vs Locke, Proudhon, etc, Land ownership, The General Enclosures acts, who benefited from the general enclosures acts, how and why, [which itself is indefensable.]
Then understand how this country operates in such a manner that the poorest taxpayers fund the richest largest landowners.
Throw in the Corn Laws, a history of argiculture, the monetary system, [what is money?] and a hundred other issues, and I would still believe wolves have a right to exist, over and above our requirement to 'increase profits'

I seem to remember reading, the amount of GDP for agriculture, in the UK accounts for as little as 3% these days?

This is an interesting article, as it concerns an area of yorkshire I am familiar with:

THIS region retains many reminders that wolves once roamed wild in our countryside.

For example, in Anglo- Saxon times January used to be known as wulfmonath, the month of the wolf, this being a time when wolves were at their most dangerous owing to a shortage of natural food.
The children’s chasing game, sheep and wolves, also dates to the period when wild wolves roaming in Yorkshire were dangerous to people and livestock, while parts of the North York Moors have retained names associated with wolves. One example is Wolf Pit Slack, between Danby and Little Fryup. It is a hollow in the moorland that is said to have been a crossing place for packs of wolves as they ran wild upon those heights.
When the wolves were at their most dangerous and numerous, local lords of the manor would organise householders into large groups to hunt them down.
A line of hunters could stretch for several miles across the lower parts of the moorland. This line could be up to five miles in length, and these people would act as beaters to flush and drive the wolves from their hiding places to be trapped and killed.
A second line of beaters would flank the first on the higher ground while a third group would wait near a selected wolf pit to drive the animals inside. These men would be armed with large, lengthy nets and various other weapons. The pits were large and deep, being hollows in the ground, with some being created by natural depressions, while others were man-made. They needed to be more than 12ft deep (about 4m) to prevent the trapped wolves from leaping to freedom.
These hunts were just one method of keeping the population of wild wolves under control. Another method was practised at Baysdale, near Westerdale in the Cleveland Hills. In the 14th century, land rents in Yorkshire could be paid in wolves’ heads and at one time, criminals could be freed by producing a specified number of wolves’ heads, that number being dependent upon the crime.
In Wales, an annual tax of gold and silver coins was converted into a tax of 300 wolves’ heads, while in parts of Derbyshire, people were allowed to own lands free of charge provided they killed wolves that infested the district. Another form of fee came in wolves’ tongues – these could be paid to free criminals, in the way that whole heads were required in some localities.
There is no doubt that people were afraid of wolves.
They would attack and kill vulnerable people, especially children, a reminder of which is still related in the tale of Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf.
Packs of wolves would also target large animals, such as cattle, and there is an old saying that reads: “When several wolves appear together, it is not a society of peace, but of war. It is attended by tumult and dreadful prowlings, and indicates an attack upon some large animal, such as a stag or ox.”
One of the most badlyaffected villages was Flixton, a few miles inland from Filey. In the reign of King Athelstan (c895-939) there were so many wolves in Yorkshire that a special shelter was erected at Flixton to defend passengers against wolves, that they might not be devoured by them.
It is often claimed that the Yorkshire Wolds were infested with wolves much later than other parts of England. At times, shepherds would drive their sheep into Flixton, Staxton and Folkton to save both their lives and those of their shepherds.
Despite all the efforts to destroy wolves, they survived and multiplied, but, as time progressed, they met their fate. It was the invention of the shotgun that led to man being able to deal with wolves. Even in its earliest form, it was an effective weapon and soon their numbers began to decline.
This has now led to various dates and places being stated as the last time a wild wolf was either seen or killed. One source suggests the last wolf to be killed in England was in Cheshire between 1485 and 1509, while in Scotland, it is said the last wolf was killed in 1743 by a huge hunter called MacQueen. However, other records indicate that wolves were seen in the wild in the Highlands as late as 1848.
However, there was a mystery sighting in Shotley Bridge in County Durham as late as 1904. This was a cub that had escaped from a park and it survived for several weeks by killing sheep, then it was apparently killed by a railway train. But that wolf was found to be an adult – so where had the cub gone? And indeed, where had the adult come from? No-one knows, just as no-one knows when the last wolf was sighted in Yorkshire.
However, I saw a pack of three adult wolves in a bus shelter near Pickering in May 1968. It was about three o’clock in the morning and I was a patrolling in a police car. But these were Canadian timber wolves that had escaped from the local zoo and so I arranged their capture and return before the public became aware of them. Then in 1969, a wolf was shot near Scarborough, it also being an escapee.

 

[Toddy]

It is an interesting read Dave, I find social history fascinating, and I would like to see the references associated with that article.
Please bear in mind the no politics rule on here though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Dave]

It is an interesting read Dave, I find social history fascinating, and I would like to see the references associated with that article.

Yes, that would be interesting. Afraid there was no list included. Just an article from a local newspaper I'd bookmarked a while back.

http://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.co.uk/leisure/countrymansdiary/9083050.print/

 

[Toddy]

Ah well, at least it's a start to looking further

cheers,
M

 

[andybysea]

I dont see the point in this, they no longer live here because Man wiped them out, bringing them back as has been said to such a overcrowded isle would lead to man coming into conflict with them again either through attacks on livestock,or on humans which would lead to them being hunted agian totally stupid idea as far as im concerned.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

The introduction of 'large carnivores' (& I suppose that is a euphemism for wolves) into the UK is just a nonsensical idea. The UK is now just a large garden full of sheep. Even the places that are considered 'wild ' including the highlands, are in fact artificial landscapes, heavily managed by man for his own financial interests. Even if we put aside all the conflictual interests of the land users, there just isn't anywhere wolves could live anymore.
There have been recurrent plans to release wolves into the Highlands to help control the deer populations, Introducing a non native species ( wolves have been absent from the UK long enough now to be considered non native) to regulate the numbers of another species( whos original habitat is woodland & not moorland) in an artificial enviroment would be criminal & history can show us where such animal introductions have taken place for similar reasons & were a complete disaster ecologically speaking. Human beings just do not understand how nature works & when we invariably cause inbalances, we seek solutions that usually end up worsening the situation.
Another problem would be inbreeding. There would have to be successive regular introductions to prevent it & then when the wolf populations became too large or spread to areas 'non designated" to them, they too would have to be ' culled' presumably by the same people who believed they could control the deer populations & then there is the slight problem of legalities, wolves being a protected species in Europe (Though when Cameron takes the UK out of the EU that may not be such a problem)


So to conclude, I don't think we'll ever hear the haunting howls of wild wolves across the Glens again.

 

[Elen Sentier]

Harvestman is right, we need to reduce the human population (and the number of miles of TarMacadam) on these isles before we can even begin to redress the imbalances that we've perpetrated in the past few hundred years.

But I'm all in favour.

Mmmm ... my thoughts too on population reduction though I dare say Mother Planet has that in hand so I don't think we need to worry about how to do it . Like a planetary cull of 2/3 to 3/4 would do just fine ???

 

[Elen Sentier]

I agree with much of what you say, Dave, especially about accepting the status quo, rather than thinking for themselves and asking the right questions. Sensing one's way down to roots there are indeed many human issues of things we have become comfortable with but which actually don't do us or the planet any good. We are continually putting sticking plaster and duct tape over the holes in our thinking ... ownership (which likely comes from when we began farming and coveted our neighbour's field) being a very fundamental one that is indefensable.

I'm one of the folk who is not happy with the status quo and does not wish to uphold the ways we've worked for last few millennia - I really would like a change.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Mmmm ... my thoughts too on population reduction though I dare say Mother Planet has that in hand so I don't think we need to worry about how to do it . Like a planetary cull of 2/3 to 3/4 would do just fine ???

Do you consider yourself as amoung those to be culled ?

 

[Elen Sentier]

In this country there is no place for them as we stand, its a shame but a in my eyes a truth. No space and to many easy feeds for them in the form of livestocks, pets and idiots.

One might need to supply the wolves with alka seltzer at that rate