Bringing back Britain's large carnivores

[blacktimberwolf]

This is an interesting documentary about how different European countries, Italy, Romania, France, Spain, Germany, Norway, Sweden etc etc etc manage to co-exist with their populations of wild wolves.]

Co-exist is prehaps an over optimistic term for the Scandanavian countries & Germany .....

 

[Dave]

Is it? Germanies population density is only a little higher than the UK, and apparently the 'wolves are thriving' there.

While 11 years ago there was one pack, there are now 12, and the return of the wolf to all of Germany, said Professor Beata Jessel, head of Germany's Federal Agency for Nature Conservation, is now "unstoppable".

Introduce wolves into the UK & they'll end up like this, shot or poisoned..............Anyone who likes, respects, knows..... wolves cannot be in favour of their introduction into the UK.

Im not sure I understand youre argument there. They are already shot and poisoned in countries where it is illegal to do so anyway. Does that mean that anyone who likes and respects wolves in those countries, should be in favour of their eradication?

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Is it? Germanies population density is only a little higher than the UK, and apparently the 'wolves are thriving' there.

Co-exist means to me that the local populations accept their presence but many German hunters & land users do not. The numbers of illegally killed wolves is not known as only the corpses left in full view as a sign of protest by some hunters can be counted.
Incidently the enviroment minister in Saxony has declared wolves liable to be hunted. This was probably to satisfy the anger of sport hunters & encourage them to 'protect' a game species. Admittedly, this could be seen as some sort of co-existance.

Im not sure I understand youre argument there. They are already shot and poisoned in countries where it is illegal to do so anyway. Does that mean that anyone who likes and respects wolves in those countries, should be in favour of their eradication?

Hmmmm.................Think you got the wrong end of the stick there......................where did I say anyone should be in favour of their eradication ?............I don't think you can compare the natural migration & colonisation of a species with an introduced one. If you introduce a species knowing that it will most likely come into conflict with human interests & that the likely outcome would be the destruction of the introduced animals, how can anyone be in favour of their introduction ?
Hope I've been clearer

 

[Tengu]

There are more forests in Germany. They certainly have a lot of managed boar...but then they have a lot of boar hunters.

 

[Toddy]

There are wild boar, living wild, in the UK too though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[salad]

I did not know wolves where here in Germany until I read this thread, I do know that there has been a very successful lynx re-introduction project and that they are now moving slowly but surely all over Germany as there numbers expand. There real strong hold is up north in the Harz mountains however there are also now reported sighting down south not far from where I live .

Hunting is strictly controlled here and well managed by forest rangers, it would be very hard for a hunter to illegally shoot an endangered species and get away with it also by nature the vast majority of Germans hunters are active members of there local communities and being arrested for something like this would be very embarrassing even if they were anti/predator I think it unlikely they would shoot one.
The hunting rules about what can be taken are very stricktly enforced here to the point that all hunters know that if they mis-identify a particular deer species at the wrong time of year and pull the trigger then they can un up losing there licence ,there guns and have a large fine .
Every small village in Germany has a local shooting club which the hunters will be members of. Theres shooting clubs are like a cross between a UK country pub and the old peoples village knitting circle they are not just for hunters but a wide range of local people are members. Its where a lot of local decisions and meetings take place(over a beer) with regards to whats happening in there local area. The hunters are normally key members of there clubs and therefore have a fair bit of local respect to maintain.
Also although there is crime in Germany the average person is fairly focused on keeping within the law in whatever they do, this is a very cultural thing which is hard to explain properly but anyone who has spent time here will probably understand what I am saying.

However with all that said the vast majority of hunters here as in the UK are nature lovers as well as hunters and I would make an educated guess they would welcome the sighting and experience of seeing a rare large predator whilst out hunting.

 

[Tengu]

I dont claim to know much about the hunting scene in Germany, but that is similar to what I have heard.

Do you get boars as huge as in Hungary though?

 

[andybysea]

There's huge bores the world over.

 

[salad]

I dont claim to know much about the hunting scene in Germany, but that is similar to what I have heard.

Do you get boars as huge as in Hungary though?

There are a lot of boar throughout Germany, however I live in the Mountains and have never seen trace of them here. Although I have seen them in other parts and have seen lots of boar sign in other areas to .
Where I live tend to be typical alpine animals like marmots, chamonix,pinemartin and loads of deer. I guess all of those could be potential prey animals for a large predator like a wolf or lynx
I was visiting a friend in the Harz over christmas and she had raccoons on top of her house, they are a non-native(problem) in that area kinda like the grey squirrel is in the UK

 

[santaman2000]

I did not know wolves where here in Germany until I read this thread, I do know that there has been a very successful lynx re-introduction project and that they are now moving slowly but surely all over Germany as there numbers expand. There real strong hold is up north in the Harz mountains however there are also now reported sighting down south not far from where I live .

Hunting is strictly controlled here and well managed by forest rangers, it would be very hard for a hunter to illegally shoot an endangered species and get away with it also by nature the vast majority of Germans hunters are active members of there local communities and being arrested for something like this would be very embarrassing even if they were anti/predator I think it unlikely they would shoot one.
The hunting rules about what can be taken are very stricktly enforced here to the point that all hunters know that if they mis-identify a particular deer species at the wrong time of year and pull the trigger then they can un up losing there licence ,there guns and have a large fine .
Every small village in Germany has a local shooting club which the hunters will be members of. Theres shooting clubs are like a cross between a UK country pub and the old peoples village knitting circle they are not just for hunters but a wide range of local people are members. Its where a lot of local decisions and meetings take place(over a beer) with regards to whats happening in there local area. The hunters are normally key members of there clubs and therefore have a fair bit of local respect to maintain.
Also although there is crime in Germany the average person is fairly focused on keeping within the law in whatever they do, this is a very cultural thing which is hard to explain properly but anyone who has spent time here will probably understand what I am saying.

However with all that said the vast majority of hunters here as in the UK are nature lovers as well as hunters and I would make an educated guess they would welcome the sighting and experience of seeing a rare large predator whilst out hunting.

I believe the reference yo illegally shooting wolves is that they would be shot (or poisoned) by farmers rather than hunters. They would have a vested interest in protecting their livestock and not neccessarily much interest in hunting clubs.

 

[salad]

I believe the reference yo illegally shooting wolves is that they would be shot (or poisoned) by farmers rather than hunters. They would have a vested interest in protecting their livestock and not neccessarily much interest in hunting clubs.

Hi

Its a bit different here, the local "shooting club" is more like the local community centre/local pub it is not just for hunters (although they are normally key members) The local shooting club is a tradition in the rural areas all the farmers near me are also members and can be seen there enjoying a beer on a regular basis. the word "shooting club can be a bit mis-leading as it is not just for people with an interest in guns . It really is a focal centre for the whole community .
Its kinda hard to explain as I did not really understand it myself before coming to live here.
Also the vast majority of people in Germany are very proud to be legally abiding citizens(even when they feel in disagreement to the law). It really would be hard for someone to get away with poisoning or illegally shooting predators here the whole community would be shocked and on the look out if it was even tried, its just the way it is.

For example although poaching exists here it is practically non-exsistant compared to other areas of europe, were as when I lived in Somerset back in the UK it was fairly common. The vast majority of people here just don't seem as willing to break the law as much as I have seen in other countries .
So I guess that what I am trying to say is that although it is possible that a large predator could be illegally shot or poisoned I think it is quite unlikely that it would happen common place if at all

Here is a link about the re-introduction of lynx here after an absence of 200 years, it has been a successes story although as you would expect in the beginning there was scepticism from local farmers and hunters but it has seamed to work out well so far , the artical states that a 6000 euro account was set up in 2000 to compensate farmers for loss of livestock in barvaria however even after all these years and an estimated population of 50-100 lynx in that particular area the fund still does not need to be topped up and has not been exhausted http://www.spiegel.de/international...ts-return-to-the-harz-mountains-a-719988.html

I think the key is acceptance and commitment from all parties envolved

 

[Tristar777]

Jurasic Park in the UK I think! Not for me thanks!

 

[santaman2000]

Hi

Its a bit different here, the local "shooting club" is more like the local community centre/local pub it is not just for hunters (although they are normally key members) The local shooting club is a tradition in the rural areas all the farmers near me are also members and can be seen there enjoying a beer on a regular basis. the word "shooting club can be a bit mis-leading as it is not just for people with an interest in guns . It really is a focal centre for the whole community .
Its kinda hard to explain as I did not really understand it myself before coming to live here.
Also the vast majority of people in Germany are very proud to be legally abiding citizens(even when they feel in disagreement to the law). It really would be hard for someone to get away with poisoning or illegally shooting predators here the whole community would be shocked and on the look out if it was even tried, its just the way it is.

For example although poaching exists here it is practically non-exsistant compared to other areas of europe, were as when I lived in Somerset back in the UK it was fairly common. The vast majority of people here just don't seem as willing to break the law as much as I have seen in other countries .
So I guess that what I am trying to say is that although it is possible that a large predator could be illegally shot or poisoned I think it is quite unlikely that it would happen common place if at all

Here is a link about the re-introduction of lynx here after an absence of 200 years, it has been a successes story although as you would expect in the beginning there was scepticism from local farmers and hunters but it has seamed to work out well so far , the artical states that a 6000 euro account was set up in 2000 to compensate farmers for loss of livestock in barvaria however even after all these years and an estimated population of 50-100 lynx in that particular area the fund still does not need to be topped up and has not been exhausted http://www.spiegel.de/international...ts-return-to-the-harz-mountains-a-719988.html

I think the key is acceptance and commitment from all parties envolved

Actually it's not as different as you might think (and from what you describe, it's not as much as I had thought either) Most farmers here are also shooters and hunters (that's what I had thought might be different there)

I'll take your point about the German people generally being more law abiding than others. I cain't confirm it but neither can I dispute it and our population (the US) has a quite different view with laws they disagree with (protecting wolves or other predators decimating livestock) Our population doesn't disobey them so much as they tend to defy them outright.

That said IF! anyone in Germany did shoot wolves illegally the farming community would still seem the most logical to do so.

 

[salad]

Actually it's not as different as you might think (and from what you describe, it's not as much as I had thought either) Most farmers here are also shooters and hunters (that's what I had thought might be different there)

I'll take your point about the German people generally being more law abiding than others. I cain't confirm it but neither can I dispute it and our population (the US) has a quite different view with laws they disagree with (protecting wolves or other predators decimating livestock) Our population doesn't disobey them so much as they tend to defy them outright.

That said IF! anyone in Germany did shoot wolves illegally the farming community would still seem the most logical to do so.

You may well be right there if a "protected species" large predator was shot then the farming communities would be a logical place to look however if you look at the link with regards to the re-intoduction of lynx here then it would suggest that a re-introduction program is feasible for large predators in European countries .

I think the Germans have made a good job of this with the Lynx and I think that there success in part is down to good communications with all the effected parties in order to get the vast majority on board with the plan. Although I would expect that there are a small number who would still be in disagreement as that is only natural

 

[Ronnie]

I'm all for it, there are far too many red deer on the hill.

Wolves would be good to have around. There'd have to be some kind of livestock compensation scheme in place or they'd just get shot.

Lynx would do well, by all accounts there's a few of them out there already.

I don't think bears are a good idea, they're fearless and inquisitive and would be in my bins in no time.

 

[santaman2000]

You may well be right there if a "protected species" large predator was shot then the farming communities would be a logical place to look however if you look at the link with regards to the re-intoduction of lynx here then it would suggest that a re-introduction program is feasible for large predators in European countries .

I think the Germans have made a good job of this with the Lynx and I think that there success in part is down to good communications with all the effected parties in order to get the vast majority on board with the plan. Although I would expect that there are a small number who would still be in disagreement as that is only natural

It might be feasable. That said the lynx doesn't really make a fair comparison. Wolves (which hunt in packs) will take down far more livestock, pets, and an occasional small child as do coyotes here ( and they're no where near the predators that wolves are) Compensation sounds good but might be more expensive for wolves than people realize. I'm sure the majority are on board right now; but that might change when they find the reality different from what they expect. That said, the only way to know is to try.

 

[Hrafnmann]

Interesting thread. As one who basically lives with large to mid-sized carnivores just outside his doorstep (black bears / grizzlies / lynx / bobcat / cougar / wolves / coyotes / wolverines) they do need huge amounts of territory albeit overlapping. It is also obvious that carnivores need a good supply of food in said territory and that usually means ungulates. It would be nice to see large carnivores return to the old country but in terms of practicality and fairness on the animals in question, it is presently unrealistic IMO.

I constantly have critters like this apple-raider in my garden, although fascinating to some extent, things can get out of hand since this bear decided to rip off some of my neighbour’s vinyl siding and trashed his wooden door in an effort to get in. How many folk are willing to accept that?

 

[blacktimberwolf]

with regards to the re-intoduction of lynx here then it would suggest that a re-introduction program is feasible for large predators in European countries .

Prehaps.............but let us not forget that mainland Europe has far more intact natural areas than the uk. Also many predators can come & go across borders using natural corridors thus conserving a wider genetic pool. Many European countries have always had large predators too & adapted their farming tecniques & livestock management accordingly.There is also a far wider range of prey species. In the UK they'll only have limited supplies of deer or limitless quantities of sheep.
If you introduce wolves onto a small, manacured modern island, where large predators have been absent for over 500 years in England,( a little less in Scotland) what would be the reason for doing so ?.......................An experiment to see how long a small group could survive before being shot, poisoned or run over ?
Introducing a new species is far more complicated than just dumping a few individuals into a chosen area. There is also the impact that introduced large predators would have on other protected species in the UK.
Anyway this is all conjecture as it will never happen. One day no doubt wolves will be released into large fenced areas in the Highlands to control the red deer & allow the forests to regenerate. Only hikers & ramblers, who will have large parts of land off limits will complain about that.

 

[joejoe]

A number of years ago the wolves from our local "Wildlife Park" escaped.
Despite being in countryside full of sheep, cows, pets and idiots they were easily hunted down and killed ... most were trying to get home, cold wet and hungry as they had no idea of how to hunt!

that is one the saddest things i have read

 

[Gasparo]

that is one the saddest things i have read

+1 on that

and I'm with Dave.
Britain is funny, we've got probably the least amount of wild anything left yet we're the first to go around telling everyone else not to kill or cut down any of theirs... as if they're gonna listen to anything we've got to say haha. Lead by example and all that. If Brazil has anything like the same attitude we had (and still have) then it's game over for the Amazon and the planet.