Bio Diesel?

[pibbleb]

So there is a lot of talk these days about renewable sources of energy and the use of Bio diesel and vegetable oil for running engines, when duty is paid obviously.

The renewable energies I understand, but what are bio diesels and are they commercially available?

I also seem to remember there being a segment on 'It's not easy being green' where they converted chip oil into fuel. Not something that I could or want to do, but are these by products also available and are they commercially available? Also is it any cheaper and do you have to make modifications to the engines you run these fuels through?

Pib

 

[cakey]

if you have the right fuel pipes and fuel pump you can run most diesels on 50/50 diesel/cooking oil (straight from the shelf)with some slight mix change for winter, after all the diesel engine was made to run off peanut oil, not suprising the guy was found floating face down in the channel. you can buy bio diesel from some petrol stations around the country but the mix is very little and of course your paying more for less with the illusion your helping the enviroment and collecting and making it isnt all that hard tbh and worth doing, you DO have to pay the duty on this still and fill a form in each month, people do get round this in various ways, which is obviously breaking the law which i dont condone in any way *looks shifty* its good for your engine too it gives it a really good clean out so eventualy more miles to the gallon, engine longevaty and reliability.
theres loads of web sites out there with info as that what car can run bio fuels straight away and which need there change, where to get it from, how to make it, and not fogeting HM customs for more biofuel info, hope that helps.

 

[Eric_Methven]

I was under the impression that you could make up to 2500ltr per year for personal use before duty is payable. That goes for Bio Diesel, Bio blends and straight vegetable oil. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eric

 

[EdS]

if you have the right fuel pipes and fuel pump you can run most diesels on 50/50 diesel/cooking oil (straight from the shelf)with some slight mix change for winter, after all the diesel engine was made to run off peanut oil, not suprising the guy was found floating face down in the channel. you can buy bio diesel from some petrol stations around the country but the mix is very little and of course your paying more for less with the illusion your helping the enviroment and collecting and making it isnt all that hard tbh and worth doing, you DO have to pay the duty on this still and fill a form in each month, people do get round this in various ways, which is obviously breaking the law which i dont condone in any way *looks shifty* its good for your engine too it gives it a really good clean out so eventualy more miles to the gallon, engine longevaty and reliability.
theres loads of web sites out there with info as that what car can run bio fuels straight away and which need there change, where to get it from, how to make it, and not fogeting HM customs for more biofuel info, hope that helps.

No you can NOT, more direct injection and common rail engine, some will never run on veg oil others and most direct injection engines will require a twin tank preheating system to get the veg oil hot and thin enough for complete combustion. In these type of engines the heavier oil tend to "ooze" out of the injector rather than the fine spray they need.

Even mixed 50: or 60:40 with cold oil you may very well get incomplete combustion leading to gumming of the rings and pistons.

Not all fuel pumps will cope with veg oil - Bosche are usually ok.

Indirect injection engines are better for single tank veg oil use as the pre-comustion chamber swirrel pot creates a better mix and preheats the oil.

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

 

[cakey]

you dont need twin tanks if you pre heat the veg oil at home first as this thins it, so when its cool its more viscous, also i ran my vaux cav offa 50/50 veg diesel for 2 yrs and it was brilliant never went wrong once

 

[Nitro]

This is a usfull sourse of information
www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

Please also be aware that many people can inadvertently confuse the meanings of the terms bio fuel, and veg oil.
It’s vitally important to note that Bio diesel is not the same as veg oil, or any veg oil mixed with diesel.

I suppose the net result will be a shortage in the second hand market of reliable diesel engines.

And as for the manufactures stance, the 2 key statements are here, one for Bio diesel and the other about veg oil.



http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/070208_ACEA_pure_vegetable_oils_final.pdf

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/070208_ACEA_FAME_BTL_final.pdf

 

[EdS]

you dont need twin tanks if you pre heat the veg oil at home first as this thins it, so when its cool its more viscous, also i ran my vaux cav offa 50/50 veg diesel for 2 yrs and it was brilliant never went wrong once

OK first off heating oil only makes it less viscous whilest it is still hot - once it cools it is vicous again. Basic physics - heat a liquid and it becomes less dense ie less viscous, less atoms pre give volume due to great energy in the system BUT only whilst it is at that temp. Heat will drive water off though.

Secondly a Vauxhall Cavilier is an old car and is an indirect injection diesel not a modern direct injection let alone a common rail.

Diesel's orginal engine did run on peanut oil but and a big but it was indirect injection and designed to run on veg oil. Modern diesel are now mostly direct injection and most certainly not designed for veg oil. Fuel viscousity is critial.

Tryputting unheated (even then it is iffy) veg oil in a modern engine and it will soon die.

 

[reddave]

Secondly a Vauxhall Cavilier is an old car and is an indirect injection diesel not a modern direct injection let alone a common rail.

Diesel's orginal engine did run on peanut oil but and a big but it was indirect injection and designed to run on veg oil.

Taking the above into account, which indirect injection engines are the newest/latest ones in cars. So that i can buy one and chuck veg oil in if necessary, but not spend a fortune trying to keep it on the road. any help please?

 

[EdS]

for indirect injection you are looking at round 10 years old now. A TDi (Turbo direct injection) should be ok with a twin tank sytem.

A modern common rail is a bit of a none starter.

Cars to look for for indirect injection are older:

Merc
Pug (UDX engine)
Vauxhall D/TD engines if Isuzu with Bosche pump

 

[Bodge]

Also it should be noted that the price of cooking oils is fast approaching the price of diesel per ltr.
The only real savings financially would be to source used oil which is now being sold to recycling companies so this "waste oil" will still cost you.
Also due to the increased costs of catering quantities of cooking oil, more businesses are buying electric filtering /cleaning equipment which prolongs the life of the oil and thus making it harder to come by.

Hope this helps

Bodge

 

[BOD]

It should be noted that bio diesel / fuels are not environmentally friendly.

There is a cost either in new forests cleared or in agricultural land being diverted from food to fuel.

And all to keep our cars on the road to drive in the style we are accustomed to.

 

[Matt.S]

I looked at biodiesel/veggie oil car fuel a little while ago to see if it'd move a car from 'never' to 'probably never'. Considering my needs to travel beyond this fair city are 95+% of the time are met by public transport, my bike or cadged lifts the fuel costs are only a fraction of what MOT, tax, insurance, lessons etc. would be. Especially considering my tender age (20). (I'll probably recrunch the numbers once I hit 21 and seriously consider a tax-exempt (classic) car. Could bea can of worms though...)

Wonder how many people will be in this same boat as me as prices of everything car-related go up and up? C'mon we're bushcrafters, surely we can come up with a traditional alternative! (Donkey-cart anyone?)

 

[pothunter]

I need to find a viable alternative, filled up on Saturday £77 and the tank was not even dry I do this a couple of times a week and three times when I'm busy it's all getting ver expensive. I reckon I'm paying £20-30 per week more than this time last year.
Pothunter.

 

[EdS]

and if you collect waste oil form anywhere you will require a waste carriers licence

 

[cakey]

I was under the impression that you could make up to 2500ltr per year for personal use before duty is payable. That goes for Bio Diesel, Bio blends and straight vegetable oil. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eric

Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information..

i pretty much answerd his original questions. my advice would be to do what i did and surf the net for answers for a few weeks and read the multitude of forums from people that have actually done this and still are doing this and of course how to do it.
you dont need a waste carriers licence by the way as its for individual use.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P82_6029

 

[Tengu]

Doctors letting me have a letter for a concessionary bus pass, so Ill be able to come visit you lot soon.

(I still need the car though, but for long or town journeys a bus will help)

 

[Eric_Methven]

Doctors letting me have a letter for a concessionary bus pass, so Ill be able to come visit you lot soon.

(I still need the car though, but for long or town journeys a bus will help)

Nice one Tengu. The bus pass (from this month) will take you anywhere in the country after 9.30am and before 11pm, so you could probably get up to the Scottish borders in about four days. The pass is not usable in Scotland though, and you can't use National Express, just local buses.

Eric

 

[EdS]

Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information..

i pretty much answerd his original questions. my advice would be to do what i did and surf the net for answers for a few weeks and read the multitude of forums from people that have actually done this and still are doing this and of course how to do it.
you dont need a waste carriers licence by the way as its for individual use.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P82_6029

Please do not listen to this man if you have a modern direct injection or common rail engine. A direct injection may run for a while in summer but it will soon die come winter without a twin tank and preheating sytem. Do not even think of going there with a common rail.

As a HMRC exempt producer you are exempt for paying duty on up to 2500l of diesel substitute.

If you are going to use waste/recyceld oil (not clean fresh oil from the shops) you are required to keep production records for HMRC but you must still register with EA for waste carriers licence and keep a record of every load collected and give the producer/person you go the waste oil from a reciept (duty of care waste transfer note) to kept for 2 years by both parties. The licence is not for holding/storing the waste oil but moving it. You are only exempt form this if you are moving your own waste oil to a final registered disposal facility.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/444304/444641/1789660/1575883/?version=1&lang=_e

Both the local council (I do this for a living) waste section/env health and EA can ask for your registration and records - failure to supply these is an immediate £300 fixed penalty notice to begin with.

Exemptions:

http://www.netregs.gov.uk/netregs/275207/276315/1615426/?lang=_e

 

[cakey]

really dont listen to edz either! seems he needs to read the correct sites first. read the correct forums, and make your own mind up, i have no time for know it alls, i am telling you what i know from experiance, read this after all it is the goverment webby, all the info is there
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document

 

[EdS]

the HMRC site only give the duty implication NOT the waste management/licencing requirements for moving waste oil.

Mixing 50:50 will work in a Cav - it is an old INDIRECT INJECTION engine not a direct injection or common rail diesel.

For the record I've run a number of direct and indirect injection cars for several years plus I have car (well 4x4) friends that does the same