Belgian Denison Smock.

[Simon1]

Hi all, I have used OD smocks for my camping but still think that camo is the best for where i go ( Like to stay un detected). But I don't like the modern camo, as it looks just to much like your rambo out for the weekend. I found a Belgian"Congo" denison type smock, with an old vintage camo pattern, that I think will suit my needs, not being ott, but still blending in.

Just wondered if anyone else has one and if so are they any good????

 

[andybysea]

three tones of purple? they are a chocolatey brown,and green,and a sort of heather flower pinkish purple(wartime cammo windproof the later issue post war job's used up till the early eighty's by the sas/and sbs had slighty more snady khaki tones in them as well),and are a great cammo for heather land/woodland etc,dennisons were a heavy drill type cloth and not much good in the wet( they were designed to go over wool battledress,which was over a wool shirt and wool undies,which was over a string vest so you had plenty underneath to keep you warm and dry), but i think the belgian post war ones were made of a tighter lighter weeve cloth, so should be okay for wind proof ish ability's and good for woodland camping etc.

 

[Simon1]

Would you be able to use greenland wax on it to improve the repellency???

 

[andybysea]

i dare say you could but it would make it stiff,ive used barbours thornproof dressing on a old combat jacket and it worked really well,but its got to be a really tight weeve cloth to work effectively, a simple solution would be a nikwax or granger wash in water repellant finish for cotton,and you can then wash it if it get to grubby.

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

i have an original sas snow smock in heavy drill, fantastic, dyed it brown but it does take water like a sponge! the camo ones were lighter weave, as were the desert ones. i have a repro camo windproof from silvermans, got it cos i collect that era of stuff, but also the camo is less military now, only because most people are used to seeing dpm type camo so its more discreet. i like them, like the headover design, also prefer the layout and cut of them. having said that i have got a a later issue one in dpm, and an sass od smock, plus others, and i generally think they are the best designed combats.
also have a german army flektarn parka which i added woolly cuffs to, excellent kit also.

 

[johnboy]

A fun thread....

Denisons do look a lot different to DPM based patterns.. As this picture shows..

Still I bet HRH isn't going to get a bol***cking from the RSM for wearing it...

When I think about Belgian Camo I must admit I tend to think it looks a bit outrageous and 'purple' is a colour that springs to mind...

But this when faded clooks a lot like an older pattern Denison..

 

[andybysea]

Johnboy the bottom pic is a differant earlier pattern, i think its from 50's 60's used to have a pair of the matching windproof trousers, i think its from the congo era,it was more a windproof cotton rather the the early jigsaw patt(next one up) which was still drill if i remember correctly,Rabbitsmacker the windproof smocks cammo,snow,mountain,desert were'nt sas smocks and really where just desighned as a infantry windproof outerlayer the cammo one went into issue 1943 i think, the sas didnt really use them much at all during the war,the desert ones where used more by the raiding and support regiment,lrdg,and sbs, the cammo one was used by the infantry in winter 44, the sas main fav was the denison,was your snow one wartime dated? i used to have a Silvermans copy,which aint bad bit of kit probably the best of the current repros,think they also did a desert version to,i did have a desert one and mountain,plus various dennisons all now sold(which i now regret would have been good to use doing outdoors stuff)

 

[johnboy]

Johnboy the bottom pic is a differant earlier pattern, i think its from 50's 60's used to have a pair of the matching windproof trousers, i think its from the congo era,it was more a windproof cotton rather the the early jigsaw patt(next one up) which was still drill if i remember correctly,

Ah that explains it..

Cheers

John

 

[Simon1]

Ah yes I see from the photo, its the bottom one i am looking at!!!!

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

hi andybythesea, i was just using the term sas smock loosely as a lot people look at me blankly until i use the word 'sas', but i agree most were issued or opted for the denison, maybe due to the amount of ex paras entering the units not really sure. :-(

as i understand it there were several windproof smocks made circa ww2, all same layout, 3 variants of snow smock, one in green used for troops training in the highlands for winter warfare, made of very heavy material, when on deployment in snowy environments two more were made available, lightweight and heavy. heavy was basically just a white version of the green one issued for training. this is the one i have. silvermans had one left here is the link http://www.silvermans.co.uk/Product...NORAK/ItemId/13797/CurrentPage/0/Default.aspx

then smock windproof drab was issued in mountainous areas, italy(ish), north africa for lrdg and raiding as you say. around the same time smock, windproof, camouflage was issued, have seen both these variants with the label saying suit or smock in the title.

All options came with matching trousers, but as far as i know, not the original green one used for training, though i don't know why they wouldn't have.
camouflage was reissued to 21,22,23 sas with zippers in late 60s early 70s, but i think more to in the terratorial and signals units. sbs i don't think stopped the circulation of these items from the time they first came in until dp took over, but not sure if the practise of putting zips in was as common as the other units.

on a seperate line i saw a reference to sbs also having sandy coloured pocketless smocks called smock,labrador but i can't find any images of this but wondered if you had heard of this one as it's something i'd like to know more about? i've seen a couple of them but don't know anything about them.

i did see some photos of i think an everest exped where they all took smock and trousers in camouflage but i can't find the images which is a shame, fantastic reference of how much equipment has changed in just the last half decade and further! scary stuff that they were considered cutting edge enough to take along!

mine came from silvermans years ago, paid £35 (wished i bought them all!) and still had its original bakelite buttons! they had loads of them all various grades, mine didn't come with it's label unfortunately (also the wrist adjuster isn't present on the snow smock and the sleeve just narrows slightly at the wrist).
i also have the camo repro which is ok, and the current desert copy they do which isn't very good, but is comfy and baggy, but they balls'd up the left arm on their entire supply and its a very thick cotton not lightweight as per original.
bloody nora i've droned on, much apologies, i'll go and take my tablets.

 

[wildrover]

That looks good.
Where are you thinking of getting the jacket from ?

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

I've totally got to have my tablets! and apologise to simon1 for hijacking his thread a little! there was also windproof of ww2 pattern produced in the new dpm when it was very first introduced (63? 66? 68?)and they occasionally come up on the bay, imho i think these will become as sought after as the earlier models so worth a punt even if they seem a bit steep in price at the moment. i've only ever seen them with a zip so if anyone spots one without a zip, buy it! lol,

sorry simon1, i agree with you about the less obviousness of the belgian smocks, was tempted yself, was put off by all those poppers on the pockets, let us know how you get on with them, might get one in the end!
Rob

 

[johnboy]

The Windproofs in 'denison' camo were 42 pattern IIRC

Used by all sort of folk including the French Foreign Legion in indochina..

And these boys in Dhofar..

L42 with an M79 tucked in A frame bergen nails.... Those DMS's could do with a polish..

GPMG and 72 patt chest rig uber Ally...

Definately not boys you'd mess around with....

 

[Twodogs]

I used to own one of the above camo smock windproof in cotton gabadine , megga jacket .
rare as hens teeth ,
SBS loved them for beach recce work as the cam worked well on the marshs.
Twodogs

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

seen the french in them also, don't know why they had them though, do you reckon cos of the french connection with brits during ww2?? seen standard bush jackets made out of the windproof camo smock material on issue to them too. i think it's an awesome pattern. wondered why the sbs favoured them so much, i thought maybe the cut leant itsef to canoe work as they are shorter, but the camo on the marshes seem most logical, probably did more favours on very rocky terrain.

 

[johnboy]

seen the french in them also, don't know why they had them though, do you reckon cos of the french connection with brits during ww2??

The French had them I suppose because they were trying to equip an army following WW2 with any kit they could get their hands on and there would have been a lot of stuff surplus to requirements from both the US and UK.
There are a lot of images of the FFL fighting in Indochina ( Vietnam / Laos) and especially Dien Bein Phu.

These FFL troops seem to be wearing ex USMC Jackets and US web equipment and US helmets..

These FFL guys seem to be wearing 42 patten windproofs note the M1 carbine with folding stock...

 

[beach bum]

I posted this about Smocks Windproof Camouflaged note the pink tinge to it.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=487880&postcount=20

regards

beach bum

 

[andybysea]

Johnboy do you mean this,
http://www.silvermans.co.uk/LargeImage.aspx?ImageName=~/Portals/0/productImages/35260-1.jpg type for 42 pattern? pretty sure this is 43 pattern windproof,the plain desert one may have been earlier as well as the plain mountain one but im sure the cammo one was'nt issued till 43 and didnt service till 44 really, if you dont mean this which do you mean although im now doubting myself as in Op Frankton Dec 42 windproofs where issued/used but im not sure which,anyone know or can help?

 

[andybysea]

This may be of help re the Belgian cammo in question,
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00038.php you can see from the close up pic the material is a tighter weeve than standard dennison twill.

 

[johnboy]

Johnboy do you mean this,
http://www.silvermans.co.uk/LargeImage.aspx?ImageName=~/Portals/0/productImages/35260-1.jpg type for 42 pattern? pretty sure this is 43 pattern windproof,the plain desert one may have been earlier as well as the plain mountain one but im sure the cammo one was'nt issued till 43 and didnt service till 44 really, if you dont mean this which do you mean although im now doubting myself as in Op Frankton Dec 42 windproofs where issued/used but im not sure which,anyone know or can help?

Hi Andy,

My understanding is that type of smock is a 42 pattern but I might be wrong

I think we can agree that there was a Desert Version an all white Snow Camo version and a Temperate Camo version all cut on the same pattern.

In CE Lucas Phillips's book 'cockleshell heroes' there is an illustration of what a S/C would have worn during Op Frankton it mentions Olive Green Camo Waterproof top I think this is a different bit of kit than the 'standard' issue windproof smock they also apparently wore Navy blue woolen hats and gloves.

I think there is a good body of historical evidence to suggest that the LRDG and early SAS were wearing a Desert windproof prior to 1943.

So perhaps the Pattern of the smock is 42 and the Temperate camo was manufactured from 43 onwards??.. But 1/2 zip pattern denisons smocks in the same camo were in use in 1942 (Op Biting and in N Africa ).

History is interesting....