Axes. Why?

[Ivan...]

Brilliant !! Just my luck to have logged off when this thread started , i love a bit of banter, the whole point of a question posed on a forum is for answers and help , some more sensible than others .

To the blokey lucky enough to have land in Greece and the Uk , cbrs66bs i think ! You are great fun , because you get a bit of body in a thread .

Firstly you sir are entitled to your opinion , and voice it , under the Bushcraft Chatter heading ,the longest you could stay out survive or something .

You posted #119 0 days here , i have absolutely no interest in living alone on hunted and /or foraged food ....

Then on this topic , you don't see the point in anyone having any kind of axe , any kind of fire ,( partly because where you live , for 5 months of the year , you would destroy kilometres of land and houses !

Sounds like you just like ,going to work ,riding your motorbike (responsibly )driving your car , carrying lots of tools around, occaisionally coming over here , and generally enjoying life , good on ya !

I must admit ( coz there is photographic evidence ) i do at times look like i am on a mission to burn the country down , bit at a time , but i think you are a little envious of me , because as you have stated you sound like you could burn yours down with one fire ...

 

[vizsla]

Its too easy to define bushcraft by what you do personaly or how rm describes it but in my eyes everyone like different aspects of it and does things in different ways. Some people like to walk 20 miles put there hammock and tarp between two trees turn on there gas stove open a ready meal and away they go and they probably get buy quite happily without even using a single sharp. While others like a short walk make a natural shelter maybe a chair or bench to sit on get a fire going forage for food or maybe do some carving and in this case a axe for me is essential

 

[Andy BB]

Some surprisingly vehement responses to my original innocent question! To summarise, it seems that most think there is really no need for them in UK conditions as there are more suitable tools for the job (for "professional" uses like clearing land the chainsaw is the norm, for example). However, if you enjoy using one and learning the skill, why not? Can't argue with that

Funnily enough, this got me thinking about another "heresy" to the purists, proclaimed by the inventor of the Jerven bag. Just to throw another cat amongst the pigeons...

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) - that it was insane to teach people a survival skill of digging snow-holes/quinzys etc, as they take a couple of hours to build, are structurally suspect and hence dangerous, will only ever bring the temp up to 0C anyway and the risk of sweat build-up/re-freezing is excessive. His suggestion? Jump into a Jerven bag immediately. Takes 2 minutes, temp will soar way above freezing and stay there! No doubt some will argue that that means you should carry a Jerven bag, and what happens if you don't? The counter-argument to that is that should you really be out in serious sub-zero temps without proper equipment? If you're carrying a shovel to build your snow-hole, along with proper layered clothing, candles, food, cooker etc, whats the difference to taking a Jerven bag with you? In fact, surely NOT taking a Jerven bag (or not teaching people about them and their uses in any training scenario/course for winter survival) is in fact irresponsible, and anti-survival/lack of preparation etc etc etc. As a matter of interest, how many of you who have been on Winter courses have been taught about the Jerven bag, or its equivalent? Be interesting to know.

ding-ding for round 2

 

[Retired Member southey]

Some surprisingly vehement responses to my original innocent question! To summarise, it seems that most think there is really no need for them in UK conditions as there are more suitable tools for the job (for "professional" uses like clearing land the chainsaw is the norm, for example). However, if you enjoy using one and learning the skill, why not? Can't argue with that

Funnily enough, this got me thinking about another "heresy" to the purists, proclaimed by the inventor of the Jerven bag. Just to throw another cat amongst the pigeons...

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) - that it was insane to teach people a survival skill of digging snow-holes/quinzys etc, as they take a couple of hours to build, are structurally suspect and hence dangerous, will only ever bring the temp up to 0C anyway and the risk of sweat build-up/re-freezing is excessive. His suggestion? Jump into a Jerven bag immediately. Takes 2 minutes, temp will soar way above freezing and stay there! No doubt some will argue that that means you should carry a Jerven bag, and what happens if you don't? The counter-argument to that is that should you really be out in serious sub-zero temps without proper equipment? If you're carrying a shovel to build your snow-hole, along with proper layered clothing, candles, food, cooker etc, whats the difference to taking a Jerven bag with you? In fact, surely NOT taking a Jerven bag (or not teaching people about them and their uses in any training scenario/course for winter survival) is in fact irresponsible, and anti-survival/lack of preparation etc etc etc. As a matter of interest, how many of you who have been on Winter courses have been taught about the Jerven bag, or its equivalent? Be interesting to know.

ding-ding for round 2

Any mention of inclement weather in that statement? the minimum I have used and maintained a working routine is a Brit issue Arctic bag, and a bivvie bag under a pine and no fire in minus 35 Celsius, keep your Jervan, I will keep my free kit

 

[johnboy]

I posted this on another thread where The usefulness of axes was being discussed....

I think most of it is relavent to the question being asked so I'll repeat it here....


What a lot of Axe talk.

There seems to be a few issues being discussed in an homogenized way.

1. The usefulness of a small axe while out n about
2. Bushcraft 'fashion' and it's influence on the stuff we buy.
3. The point of axes in general

I cannot talk for other folk but here is my story.

Like a lot of folk on here I bought Ray Mears Bushcraft book back in 2003. It's a seminal work similar in magnitude to Lofty wisemans SAS survival Handbook back in the 80's. Ray's book however has far more color photos and a big section on kit and quite a few pages devoted to axes especially Gransfors Bruks.. I read the book and have dipped into it a lot since. My opinion of the book is its sets out a way of undertaking Bushcraft and gives you hints and tips on kit to buy. IIRC the book suggests the GB SFA is the choice for bushcraft type stuff.

After a trip back to the uk in 2006 and my sister buying me the complete DVD series of RM's Bushcraft I really fancied a GB SFA which I ended up with after a bit of a wrangle. It's been fun to use. I had never used an axe in my outdoor stuff very much at all prior to my SFA ownership. Any how I took it along on a few trips and soon came to realize that for me it was a bit of a dead weight I don't do much carving, for a simple overnight camp I can scavenge enough small firewood with out having to split stuff down etc.. So it's been languishing in the shed getting the odd trip out when we go car camping where it gets used to split down bigger bits of wood for the fire pit and knocking in tent pegs etc...

Last July I took my children of a bit of a walking tour of the central plateau as it winter here we had some cold weather and a bit of snow to contend with.

The National Park is well provisioned with backcountry huts which at that elevation all have a wood burner With a supply of sawn timber which DOC provide.

The routine was simple we'd walk from hut to hut getting to our new 'home' in the late afternoon get the fire going make tea etc... I didn't take the SFA as it had been a dead weight on previous trips and DOC provide a splitting maul at each hut and I was probably lugging 25 kg at the start of the trip with food for three for three days and fuel stove etc....

Anyhow the upshot is a small hand hatchet would have been really useful for splitting kindling and getting some tinder sorted... As most of the twigs and small stuff around the huts was soaked or covered in snow. As it was I made do with a mora and a bit of battening down of some split pieces of wood which while ok would have been easier with a hatchet.

Getting the stove going was a nice to have on this trip rather than an essential but a warm hut and dry kit in the AM made for a really enjoyable time for all of us the kids still talk about the huts and the fire and cooking chicken curry etc...

My view is an axe can be useful some of the time. It an also be a PITA dead weight. A hatchet can be useful also.

Folk buy what they buy for lots of reasons. It's as simple as that.....

 

[Retired Member southey]

Any mention of inclement weather in that statement? the minimum I have used and maintained a working routine is a Brit issue Arctic bag, and a bivvie bag under a pine and no fire in minus 35 Celsius, keep your Jervan, I will keep my free kit

To add I was wearing the requisite kit and have the required training and relevant experience to do it 3 R words there, 3!

 

[johnboy]

As a matter of interest, how many of you who have been on Winter courses have been taught about the Jerven bag, or its equivalent? Be interesting to know.

Ive never been taught about the Jerven bag.

Emergency snow shelters ( opposed to semi permanent snow shelters) get taught as they can be constructed fairly quickly with basic kit. You don't need a shovel to dig a snow cave for example although it makes it easier you can use a billy, mug ice axe etc... The basic concept is they get you out of the wind and prevailing weather.

 

[cbr6fs]

My point - I'll use little words - is that the whole hobby is pointless - as are all hobbies. They are for amusement not necessity. If it amuses someone to use an axe, then it has fulfilled its purpose. It is no less worthy than the "bushcraft knife" that is unnecessary because there is no need to be out "Bushcrafting" in the first place. There is no need for a fire so a saw is pointless, there is no need to camp out so a tarp is pointless. Its all pointless other than for its amusement value.

Its redundant to pick out one item, in a hobby that meets no real need in this country and describe it as pointless when the whole hobby is pointless.

Bushcraft in the UK is one big game of "lets pretend" no more, no less. We have no uncharted wilderness, we are rarely out of mobile phone signal. So an axe is no more redundant than the hobby itself - unless one person chooses to apply their own narrow definition to the hobby and then single mindedly berate others for refusing to follow the definition of the hobby that they invented.

Snide comments aside, no idea what your definition of bushcraft is, for me it's simply getting out into nature.

That to me is a massive de-stress, as i'm also usually walking while out it also helps keep me fit.
Both important things to me and far from pointless.

No, not swinging "wildly" nor with a "kiddie" axe. Remember I grew up on a farm where cutting firewood (real firewood for the fireplaces in the house) was a daily chore in the winter as was professional logging (on a family scale) and paperwooding (cutting wood for the paper/pulp mills) all year round. It was all just part of our life, and still is for most rural families in Mississippi. If you mean "Do you enjoy being good at your work (or what WAS your work)?" Then yes, I do enjoy it. I also enjoy wielding a chainsaw, driving log trucks, tractors and bulldozers, etc. from that part of my early life.

Sure at home especially with a wood burning heating/cooking system a axe would be useful at worst, essential at best.
I'm still struggling to think of a reason (other than private land, carving) why you'd bother lugging a little kiddies axe around in the UK though

 

[sasquatch]

There seems to be a lot of vibe sniping on different levels on here thesedays. Nobody in the UK needs an axe, just like they don't need a hammock and they don't need a Ti spoon and they don't need a fire. If it floats your boat carry on in my opinion. They're great for splitting wood at home for the fire and a small axe speeds up carving projects no end when out of doors. It's pretty rare I take one out with me but if I plan on certain projects I bring one. No chance of burning the country down where I'm at if I bring an axe so no need to worry about that side of things in my opinion...

 

[johnboy]

I'm still struggling to think of a reason (other than private land, carving) why you'd bother lugging a little kiddies axe around in the UK though

Because you want to... That's as valid reason as any TBH....

 

[Retired Member southey]

Probably find that the jervan bag bloke is very willing to advertise his product too,

 

[John Fenna]

Well - this last weekend I took my GB SFA into the woods with me and a bucksaw (home made)...
I felled some dead standing trees (it must have been around 8 of them all told) and while the saw was useful on the sound parts, the axe was much better at cutting through the damp, almost rotted, parts of the trunk. The axe was also used not only to sned the trees I took down but also to remove thousands of "eye poking" dead branches on the path to the main part of the camp.
The axe was also useful for cutting wedges, splitting logs, pointing the ends of tripod legs and trimming branches to length for varios uses.
My bucksaw fell apart after a while (it was my first attempt at building one only using a knife...) but the work continued (a couple of Laplanders were in use by the other guys - as well as a couple of other axes which they used to drop even more trees) and in the end we had built in total - 1 Alter fire, 1 huge table, an "A" frame bed and several tripods as well as clearing several "widow makers" of dead standing that were leaning at a dangerous angle.
We could have done all this with a saw and a knife ... but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot of effort! I could have taken a Billhook - but it would not have been the best tool for all the jobs in hand.
I also use the axe to cut and split firewood at home and at other sites, drop trees at home, carve rough outs for spoons etc
Why take an axe? - because it is a versatile and practical tool for the jobs I was doing in the woods!

 

[Barn Owl]

I love my wee Husky hatchet.

Was brought up using a small hatchet for the coal fires kindling each morning and using knives to cut,not do hatchet work.

Maybe that's why i don't like battonining with a knife.

Anyhow,the wee hatchet is great for rough hewing your carving project, dressing wood you may be taking as walking sticks, taking the legs and head off rabbit, fish or bird.


Packs in the sac easily, doesn't weigh a great deal.


Yep,I have uses for mine and enjoy using it.

 

[Shewie]

So - is there really a requirement for an axe in the UK, or are they just affectations?

No requirement, but as others have said there's no requirement for most of what we do, it's just a bit of fun, grown men playing in the woods that's all

 

[Andy BB]

Probably find that the jervan bag bloke is very willing to advertise his product too,

You cynic, you!

However, the tests do seem to bear him out, as do the experiences of those using them - some interesting articles on their website re disabled trip to the North Pole, -40 to-50C following the Alaska dog races, independent lab testing in ludicrously low temps and very high winds etc etc.

Which is why I find it surprising that those teaching arctic/winter survival techniques - including advice about the best clothing/equipment to use - don't include the Jerven bag or equivalents available. In this case, isn't it taking the "primitive man knew best" routine a bit too far? Just because the Sami don't use them, doesn't mean they don't work better than more basic techniques. After all, even the Inuit use snowmobiles nowadays!

 

[Samon]

Well - this last weekend I took my GB SFA into the woods with me and a bucksaw (home made)...
I felled some dead standing trees (it must have been around 8 of them all told) and while the saw was useful on the sound parts, the axe was much better at cutting through the damp, almost rotted, parts of the trunk. The axe was also used not only to sned the trees I took down but also to remove thousands of "eye poking" dead branches on the path to the main part of the camp.
The axe was also useful for cutting wedges, splitting logs, pointing the ends of tripod legs and trimming branches to length for varios uses.
My bucksaw fell apart after a while (it was my first attempt at building one only using a knife...) but the work continued (a couple of Laplanders were in use by the other guys - as well as a couple of other axes which they used to drop even more trees) and in the end we had built in total - 1 Alter fire, 1 huge table, an "A" frame bed and several tripods as well as clearing several "widow makers" of dead standing that were leaning at a dangerous angle.
We could have done all this with a saw and a knife ... but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot of effort! I could have taken a Billhook - but it would not have been the best tool for all the jobs in hand.
I also use the axe to cut and split firewood at home and at other sites, drop trees at home, carve rough outs for spoons etc
Why take an axe? - because it is a versatile and practical tool for the jobs I was doing in the woods!

I agree, a good sized axe is well worth it's weight if you are working on trees and then using it to 'bushcraft' the remains into tabels, frames and what not.

I can't see a massive use for bigger axe when camping with gas stoves but for processing kindling and having a play at carving to pass the time and learn some traditional methods an axe is very good and fun. Fun being the reason you were probably out there in the first place, it makes sence to do more while out there that you enjoy.

 

[Sappy]

It wouldnt be a proper week without a whats the point of the axe thread.

Really most of the folks who have an axe in the woods dont need it for anything but its cool to have, most folk i know just use it for splitting a tonne of firewood( why split so much wood for an open fire?) i can see the point of splitting some to get a fire going but.its just pointless splitting loads.

At home though i use mine for making shakes for my shed roof, splitting stove wood, hewing and rough shaping garden furniture etc.

Not really needed in the woods, an axe is a lot more useful than a knife or saw in the right hands.

GB's are good but the things are so expensive, better to get an axe from a car boot sale for a few quid and fix it. Much more worthy of respect than buying a gb

 

[Sappy]

Also with the invention of the chainsaw saw of the last of the great axemen of old.

Dont think anyone alive today has the skill to truly.have earned theyre double bit

 

[Retired Member southey]

Also with the invention of the chainsaw saw of the last of the great axemen of old.

Dont think anyone alive today has the skill to truly.have earned theyre double bit

Bit (see what I did there) of a sweeping statement chap, what exactly do you mean earned it

 

[John Fenna]

I agree, a good sized axe is well worth it's weight if you are working on trees and then using it to 'bushcraft' the remains into tabels, frames and what not.

I can't see a massive use for bigger axe when camping with gas stoves but for processing kindling and having a play at carving to pass the time and learn some traditional methods an axe is very good and fun. Fun being the reason you were probably out there in the first place, it makes sence to do more while out there that you enjoy.

Fun AND work
Preparing a site for not only fun weekends out but also as a base for Nature Awareness and Ecotherapy sessions with folk with issues.
I do own a gas stove (well about 5 actually) but prefer open fires for cooking - especially for groups - and I do not own a chainsaw (nasty noisy dangerous things).
With mases of wood available (private woods in need of thinning) I get both fun and the community gets benifit and I (possibly) get a bit of paid employment in the future as well as the bushcrafting site of the gods
I also sell some of my carvings, so the use of the axe is - for me - pleasure, profit, fun, excercise, giving back to the comunity and keeping trad skills alive ...
That is why I am using an axe
I have yet to try a Jerven bag but they sound and look good ... but are beyond my budget!