Alternatives to ventile?
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Err, you do know that the Gore Tex part is just the membrane added to the fabric don't you?
I have a fluorescent green work jacket given to me by a mate who works as a cable jointer, it's got a gore tex membrane so it's waterproof (but properly heavy with weirdly placed pockets) fire and arc resistant as shown on its stamped on labelling.
It's got a cotton outer because cable jointers arent supposed to wear clothing that melts on them if things go wrong and something arcs.
That would be a bad thing.
Your other for and against points are fair enough but I personally feel you are spreading inaccurate information in this regard.
you seem to be deliberately confusing membrane with the garment fabric, which in most cases isn't much of an issue as many gore tex membrane jackets are made from something thin and easy to burn.
Not all cases though.
I also have a very hardwearing man made fibre jacket with gore tex membrane that is absolutely with ease tougher than the (I think) L24 Ventile jacket that I wear a when I'm not at work and carrying floorjoists about in the rain.
I wouldn't wear my ventile jacket for that cos it would have worn through the right shoulder (the one I fire heavy stuff on) in very short order.
The cuffs of my ventile jacket have worn through in some small areas and I've maybe had it for a year and a half of dog walking and general weekend ambling about so I do feel that you know quite a bit about fabrics but that you know better and some of your information is slightly misleading.
For the record, I'm no Gore Tex Fan boi a d given a good viable alternative I'm all for it, I genuinely like my Ventile anorak (can't stand the word "Smock" as it sounds like a medieval peasants shirt and as such a bit "Hey Nonny Nonny") and I accept its limitations a d act accordingly.
That doesn't give it a free pass though so I'll mention any issues it has so other people can make an informed choice when buying what is generally a quite expensive garment.
Goretex is plastic no matter what it is bonded to - it is a thin, fragile, heat sensitive plastic, usually (but not always) bonded (ie glued - giving not breathing spots where there is glue) to thin, fragile, heat sensitive plastic. I was a clothing designer for the likes of Craghoppers for a while and CH avoided Gore preferring Sympatex (a tougher and better plastic membrane) but like Betamax lost out in video wars so did Sympatex in membrane wars.
I have no love of any membranes really - though some makes/models of garments using membranes are better than others: Full coating (PU can be slightly breathable) for full waterproof, Ventile or wool for water management, Poly cotton for durable shower resistance, wax proofings (wash in or melted in ) for longer term "reproofing", silicone spray/bath for "reproofing" plastics and some cottons (such as Cambric) ... those are my preferences
I like Double PP - Pile & Pertex - but not around fires.
I was asked to design the first generation Paramo range but in the end I passed on the job, and quite like that as well but not the majority of designs it is used in.
You have to use what you find works for you and I still find that a well made, well designed Ventile garment is the one that works best for me
There is no substitute for Ventile - if you like it best for the job you are using it for
I have no love of any membranes really - though some makes/models of garments using membranes are better than others: Full coating (PU can be slightly breathable) for full waterproof, Ventile or wool for water management, Poly cotton for durable shower resistance, wax proofings (wash in or melted in ) for longer term "reproofing", silicone spray/bath for "reproofing" plastics and some cottons (such as Cambric) ... those are my preferences
I like Double PP - Pile & Pertex - but not around fires.
I was asked to design the first generation Paramo range but in the end I passed on the job, and quite like that as well but not the majority of designs it is used in.
You have to use what you find works for you and I still find that a well made, well designed Ventile garment is the one that works best for me
There is no substitute for Ventile - if you like it best for the job you are using it for
- thin YES
- fragile YES, as it is expanded to create the holes
- heat sensitive NO, it has a melting point of 327C which is quite high for any plastic
- mechanically much stronger as it is elastic and a continuous film
- acts in a totally different way from GT, it is a hydrophilic polyester
- better, maybe, at least in my shoes and clothing it has lasted a lot longer than GT but it does not work quite as well as GT in dry conditions, nether works in wet.
Goretex - expanded PTFE (plumbers thread sealing tape in is most commonly found form) soon to be replaced with polyethylene ....105 degrees C melting point ....
Ha, the mate who gave it to me described it as cotton but I've just checked it with the manufacturer Bell Apparel LTD and its mostly pollyester.
It's still arc, flame and waterproof so most of my comments still stand and its waaaaaay more abrasion resistant than my Ventile jacket.
Link to the garment HERE.
It's got pockets in slightly odd places (guessing thats so items in them don't affect the safety aspects of its arc rating but I'm not sure)
If you're against both Ventile and Goretex, or derivatives thereof, look at the Paramo stuff, I've little experience but didn't like it. Alternatively look at the Arktis B310 Smock. Hard wearing poly cotton outer with a drop liner inside, I've worn it in pretty heavy prolonged rain and been dry. In fact I have a black one in XL that's looking for a new home
I have a Country Innovations double ventile jacket (the Rover II), and it has never let me down in the rain yet. Like @John Fenna, I pair it with wool underneath. For bushcraft, infinitely prefer this over any other solution I have ever tried.
The original call is for an alternative fabric for projects that isn’t ventile but is both water proof and breathable. Sure I could drop 400 GBP on a coat but I don’t want to, apart from the fact is a nuts price, I couldn’t justify the price to use ratio. Goretex in general appears to be synthetic or on a synthetic base. Ventile remains overrated or at marmite at least. Starting to lead back to waxed cotton or treated wool of some type.
For cheap and basic - I have a Highlander waterproof breathable synthetic fabric suit: it works to keep me dry, looks like a sack that fits where it touches and is noisy, has badly placed and overly small pockets , for my taste ... but it does a job.... at a low price....
It comes no where near the performance of my Ventile other than keeping me dry in wet weather
I used to have some waxed cotton that was good - but left wax on everything it came in contact with....
It comes no where near the performance of my Ventile other than keeping me dry in wet weather
I used to have some waxed cotton that was good - but left wax on everything it came in contact with....
How do you keep Ventile clean though, my trousers have become stained with charcoal and I just can't get it out, I am gonna have to dye them black I reckon.
Any familiarity with this product set?
halleystevensons.co.uk
EverWax™ Archives
EverWax; The next generation of sustainable fabrics and finishes. This innovative set of fabrics explores the re-purposes of 'waste' by-products.
halleystevensons.co.uk
I have no experience of that range but I did once get a very good "mystery" dry waxed, tight woven cotton/cotton blend fabric off a market stall ... it was very good but I have not mentioned it before as I have no idea what it was!
Some of that range look very interesting - but the more interesting ones look like the most expensive ones as well
Some of he cheaper ones look pretty good and I like the 3m sample roll option.
One thing about waxed cotton you might bear in mind is that some of the waxed fabrics can make good candles if exposed to a flame and can also be a pig to clean ... the drier the wax the less problem in my experience.
Some of that range look very interesting - but the more interesting ones look like the most expensive ones as well
Some of he cheaper ones look pretty good and I like the 3m sample roll option.
One thing about waxed cotton you might bear in mind is that some of the waxed fabrics can make good candles if exposed to a flame and can also be a pig to clean ... the drier the wax the less problem in my experience.
Indeed, it’s something I’ve noticed with one particular waxed jacket, another (heavy denim) doesn’t have that problem and still works in medium weather. Slightly different amount of wax.
I've never owned a Ventile smock or parka but I did own for a while a Blacks "StormPruf" anorak. The bright orange double layer jobby; while it did indeed keep out the horrendous Scottish winter weather it gained a lot of weight during the day and froze solid each night and was a real pain in the butt to get into in the early AM.
I currently have a cheap taslan jacket lined with ripstop nylon and treated with Nikwax that does almost as good a job but dries out in much less time and weighs much much less.
I also have 5 metres of uncut Ventile/Etaproof in my stash that I've never got around to cutting and making a coat with; Goretex and its analogues working much better in our white season conditions here in Oz.
The same could be said for the American M-65 Field jacket, which is good in below freezing conditions but does soak up water after a while and has the same problem with getting them dried out. My memories of Scotland and the Lakes District are coloured by the memory of the smell of wet wool and cotton in the drying rooms of all the hotels and lodges I stayed in; and in Aviemore all the squaddies lining up to use the tumble dryers to dry out there gear ready for the next days skiing lessons.
For dry cold conditions most of my American friends use tightly woven cotton duck in a single layer because they are only interested in keeping the wind off when it gets down to -18C and lower. I have a stash of that too which will never get used.
Horses for courses and if you like Ventile and all its clones use it; and put up with its inherent limitations.
I have mates who work in Antarctica and while they get issued with a great big red Ventile parka most of them say they prefer the Goretex suits or the Carhartt Arctic suits
I currently have a cheap taslan jacket lined with ripstop nylon and treated with Nikwax that does almost as good a job but dries out in much less time and weighs much much less.
I also have 5 metres of uncut Ventile/Etaproof in my stash that I've never got around to cutting and making a coat with; Goretex and its analogues working much better in our white season conditions here in Oz.
The same could be said for the American M-65 Field jacket, which is good in below freezing conditions but does soak up water after a while and has the same problem with getting them dried out. My memories of Scotland and the Lakes District are coloured by the memory of the smell of wet wool and cotton in the drying rooms of all the hotels and lodges I stayed in; and in Aviemore all the squaddies lining up to use the tumble dryers to dry out there gear ready for the next days skiing lessons.
For dry cold conditions most of my American friends use tightly woven cotton duck in a single layer because they are only interested in keeping the wind off when it gets down to -18C and lower. I have a stash of that too which will never get used.
Horses for courses and if you like Ventile and all its clones use it; and put up with its inherent limitations.
I have mates who work in Antarctica and while they get issued with a great big red Ventile parka most of them say they prefer the Goretex suits or the Carhartt Arctic suits
Keela do seem to have some interesting concepts and designs although I have not tried them yet. I quite like the look of their 2-layer approach to the breathability issue and waterproof shell.
For the last 30+ years I have used a single layer Ventile jacket from Survival Aids (double layer hood and shoulders) but primarily just as a windproof and shower proof shell (ideal for intermittent showers and avoiding the repeated "CoCo" (Cag-on Cag-off) requirements in changeable weather/altitudes. In really heavy rain it's backed up by a Goretex shell (Mountain Range of Cumbria). That's always worked well for me but I completely understand/accept the "pros and cons" comments about both fabrics in this thread so far. Neither are perfect for all types of work or environmental conditions. I have just been a grateful and loyal (perhaps blindly?) Goretex user since I was first issued it in 1989. It was a vast improvement on anything else available back then.
I used to spend a lot of time walking around day and night in the UK woods running expedition training and selection courses and for that I used the Ventile smock but also had a Dutch Army Goretex liner underneath it, in heavy rain. It had no hood or pockets and was really just a thin Goretex membrane between a couple of layers of what looked like no-see-um midge netting. It kept me warm and dry in heavy downpours, the Ventile jacket protected it from thorn/branch/holly-spike damage and I still had easy access to my outer pockets.
My warm kit underneath the Ventile jacket is still a Buffalo belay jacket in winter or a thin fleece top in warmer temps.
Living in a tropical country now, all the seam tape on every Goretex item I own, has peeled off and it's expensive and a logistical pain to have it repaired back in UK. I am not sure how many re-seaming attempts the gear can take. There's probably a limit to that. So nowadays I rely upon Ventile and a thin PU coated jacket as it's always damp here from humidity or sweat.
For the last 30+ years I have used a single layer Ventile jacket from Survival Aids (double layer hood and shoulders) but primarily just as a windproof and shower proof shell (ideal for intermittent showers and avoiding the repeated "CoCo" (Cag-on Cag-off) requirements in changeable weather/altitudes. In really heavy rain it's backed up by a Goretex shell (Mountain Range of Cumbria). That's always worked well for me but I completely understand/accept the "pros and cons" comments about both fabrics in this thread so far. Neither are perfect for all types of work or environmental conditions. I have just been a grateful and loyal (perhaps blindly?) Goretex user since I was first issued it in 1989. It was a vast improvement on anything else available back then.
I used to spend a lot of time walking around day and night in the UK woods running expedition training and selection courses and for that I used the Ventile smock but also had a Dutch Army Goretex liner underneath it, in heavy rain. It had no hood or pockets and was really just a thin Goretex membrane between a couple of layers of what looked like no-see-um midge netting. It kept me warm and dry in heavy downpours, the Ventile jacket protected it from thorn/branch/holly-spike damage and I still had easy access to my outer pockets.
My warm kit underneath the Ventile jacket is still a Buffalo belay jacket in winter or a thin fleece top in warmer temps.
Living in a tropical country now, all the seam tape on every Goretex item I own, has peeled off and it's expensive and a logistical pain to have it repaired back in UK. I am not sure how many re-seaming attempts the gear can take. There's probably a limit to that. So nowadays I rely upon Ventile and a thin PU coated jacket as it's always damp here from humidity or sweat.
I've just spotted this on Profabrics site.
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GBWW3 - Water Resistant, Breathable Wool Mix by GORE
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GORE breathable, water resistant fabric with a wool outer face. This is a natural looking product with a woven wool face with the advantage of a breathable, windproof and highly water resistant membrane on the inside. Very unusual! Available in Navy Blue and Royal Blue.
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