Advice: Antler scales for Viking Seax

[Dreadhead]

The other week I managed to get this lovely hand forged viking seax blade in a trade with a Swedish fella. cutting edge measures 24cm. It's a beaut.

IMAG0011 by Hamish Odinson, on Flickr

The only thing, is I have little experience making knife handles and have only ever done stick tangs. After trading for this, my friend gave me some special antler he found on his farm and suggested I use it for the scales which I quite like the idea of as I'd like to sand some of the antler down and auger in some ring and dot marks too.

My questions is how difficult is it to use antler for scales, and should I put something in between the antler and steel such as leather, brass, bronze etc? I want to try and keep this as reasonably authentic as I can so obviously no plastics etc though happy to cheat a bit and use epoxy. I have some saddlers copper rivets which i will cut down and peen on both ends for the pins (wary of peening onto antler) and is there anything I should do to the antler prior to working such as wetting it etc. I also plan on grinding the handle down a bit as it's far too large for my wee girly hands, you can just about see in the picture where I have marked it to cut paralell to the end of the swiss army knife.

Feel free to post up pictures of antler scaled knives as I'm also looking for inspiration.

Any advice would be great, cheers!

 

[neoaliphant]

When I did reenactment I ahd a seax very much like yours and i simply had the antler mounted straight on to the tang, it wasnt smoothed or shaped at all it was comfortable and very safe as unlike the smooth tapered handles it wouldnt come flying out of my hand in battle. the antler piece was like the middle piece above with the antler bit that joins the skull laying next to my wrist. I may be able to dig up the seax and post a photo if required.

Al

 

[Dreadhead]

When I did reenactment I ahd a seax very much like yours and i simply had the antler mounted straight on to the tang, it wasnt smoothed or shaped at all it was comfortable and very safe as unlike the smooth tapered handles it wouldnt come flying out of my hand in battle. the antler piece was like the middle piece above with the antler bit that joins the skull laying next to my wrist. I may be able to dig up the seax and post a photo if required.

Al

that's good to know as I wouldn't need to go and buy anything, the thrifty scot that I am. Though the tang on this is pretty higgletypiggelty so not sure how flat I could get a peice, I guess I would have to grind the surfaces on the steel as flat as possible which I may be able to do on my bench sander without heating up the tang much and hopefully any epoxy would just plug any gaps

Aye I'd be interested to see yours, is it full tang too or the more historical stick tang?

 

[neoaliphant]

I do know that when i gound antler by hand, it took ages and stank.

It was a blacksmith that handled my seax, but i think it was epoxied in with a bronze round cap. Not sure what type of tang it was

I have a antler handled walking stick, the antkler was drilled and then epoxied, seems solid

It does seem a big tang compared to other viking seaxes, I would grind down and taper and epoxy in.

I also have a small seax that was i think just heated and pushed in to a small bit of antler, seems solid, that was very small stick tang.

 

[Alreetmiowdmuka]

That's a nice blade


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Laurentius]

I have to say epoxy is the way I have fixed antler to my knives and walking sticks. I expect the Vikings had an equivalent.

 

[forestwalker]

I have to say epoxy is the way I have fixed antler to my knives and walking sticks. I expect the Vikings had an equivalent.

Not really. Glue i that period -- actually all glue up to sometime in the 1900s -- was things like hide or hoof glue or pine pitch glue (etc). Now, pine pitch glue is good stuff, but epoxy it is not. That said I know someone who has made a knife (literally made it: he started with refining the raw bog iron...) which has wooden scales glued on with pine pitch and then pinned with junioer "rivets". It has held up for a number of years of actual field use.

As to your knife, is it a reenactors battle knife, or something intended to be as accurate as possible? I can't recall anything but stick tangs from that period (but I am NOT an expert).

 

[Janne]

Not really. Glue i that period -- actually all glue up to sometime in the 1900s -- was things like hide or hoof glue or pine pitch glue (etc). Now, pine pitch glue is good stuff, but epoxy it is not. That said I know someone who has made a knife (literally made it: he started with refining the raw bog iron...) which has wooden scales glued on with pine pitch and then pinned with junioer "rivets". It has held up for a number of years of actual field use.

As to your knife, is it a reenactors battle knife, or something intended to be as accurate as possible? I can't recall anything but stick tangs from that period (but I am NOT an expert).

People knew the limitations of the equipment they had, and used it to that limit. If you remember the old style knives made in Mora, they had painted wooden handles. Nobody I know used them for batoning, as the handle could crack. Also, lacking the finger guard, nobody sane would have used it in a sticking motion.

Glue made from animal parts ( hoofs, skin, fish parts) is incredibly strong. All old furniture has been assembled this eay, and lasted for generations.

 

[Dreadhead]

Not really. Glue i that period -- actually all glue up to sometime in the 1900s -- was things like hide or hoof glue or pine pitch glue (etc). Now, pine pitch glue is good stuff, but epoxy it is not. That said I know someone who has made a knife (literally made it: he started with refining the raw bog iron...) which has wooden scales glued on with pine pitch and then pinned with junioer "rivets". It has held up for a number of years of actual field use.

As to your knife, is it a reenactors battle knife, or something intended to be as accurate as possible? I can't recall anything but stick tangs from that period (but I am NOT an expert).

It's razor sharp and going to be used for camp chores as I'm not one for the battle stuff, I'm more into living history and the craft side of things. I know it's not totally authentic with the full tang, but I figured I would be able to abuse this a lot more with battoning etc rather than a stick tang. I could grind the tang down into a stick but I don't have any grinders to do that and it's extra work that I could do without. I had the option to choose stick tangs but I also wanted this as an experiment to try and handle a full tang as I've never done that before

 

[Dave]

Glue made from animal parts ( hoofs, skin, fish parts) is incredibly strong. All old furniture has been assembled this eay, and lasted for generations.

Thats interesting. How old is this furniture then? Is it hand made swedish wooden chairs?

And I know its only re-enactment, but you use real blades for that do you? For the battles? Id lose body parts Im sure.

 

[Dreadhead]

Thats interesting. How old is this furniture then? Is it hand made swedish wooden chairs?

And I know its only re-enactment, but you use real blades for that do you? For the battles? Id lose body parts Im sure.

no as I said I don't do the battles, and they only use blunted weapons of course but it's not for me I'm more invested in living history crafts

 

[Leshy]

Good on you Hamish .
It doesn't have to be a replica, I look forward to seeing the final product!
👍

 

[Janne]

Thats interesting. How old is this furniture then? Is it hand made swedish wooden chairs?

And I know its only re-enactment, but you use real blades for that do you? For the battles? Id lose body parts Im sure.

I would say all furniture pre 1930 or so. No, those glues were used worldwide, even in Brigandia!
They are still used by proper furniture restorers today.

Even if an edge is blunt, it still must hurt, I guess the reenactors do everything very slowly?

 

[Robson Valley]

"Hide" glues are the modern adhesives of choice for fine musical instruments in the violin group.
In the event that serious repairs must be made inside the instruments, hide glue joints
can be opened and redone, over and over.
Depending upon the nature of the work, a luthier friend uses 4 different kinds.

 

[Dave]

I would say all furniture pre 1930 or so. No, those glues were used worldwide, even in Brigandia!
They are still used by proper furniture restorers today.

Even if an edge is blunt, it still must hurt, I guess the reenactors do everything very slowly?

Not the ones Ive seen! Bunch of crazy scots swinging broadswords at each other outside the loch sheil hotel. Freakin nutters, who really put their back into it!

I think we need a glue thread, with a step by step if hoof skin and fish parts are that strong......

I didnt know that there were viking seax blades, I always thought a seax blade meant it was saxon.

 

[Shelley]

Well be carful grinding the tang down, if you cut it where you have makes it will possibly be a problem as the last hole for the rivet is a long way from the end, I would see if you can drill before you cut, drilling may need an engineering company as the steel should have been harden d and you will probably burn out a normal drill before you make a hole in it.

Whist getting the tang flat is important I would look at grinding some voids in as well, extra space for the epoxy to adhere to.

As for liner there are two theories, one is that it protects the steel from moisture getting trapped in there and rusting the blade (not necessarily true as many liners are porous); the other theory is that the more material you have between the tang and the eventual handle material is the more glue joints to fail and caus problems (probably not true with modern epoxy like west systems).

Just make sure that the antler is absolutely flat, then drill some holes for epoxy to soak in as well.

Final comment is that liners look good, copper would look nice.

 

[juttle]

Morning, Hamish,

Personally I'd leave the handle at the length it is now. Historically the seax did have a much longer handle than could be reasonably accommodated by the average hand, probably something to do with extra reach. If you split one of your antler pieces and then file the resulting flat area until its roughly the same width as the tang, you can then epoxy it straight on to the tang. Only do one side first, let it set and then drill the rivet holes. Then attach the second scale, let it set and then drill through the first holes into the second side. If you countersink the holes you'll have a recess for the saddlery rivets to sit in. Cut the end cap of the rivets and peen the end to capture the washer then insert in the handle. Peen the other end the same trying to avoid the antler. Antler is pretty tough stuff, but it will chip! When everything has settled down, you can sand the antler to fit the tang. Keep the resulting antler dust for gap filling if required. Just mix some epoxy and add antler dust to it to fill any gaps between tang and grip. Allow to cure and sand down as before.

Personally, I'd avoid copper or brass liners unless they were well drilled to allow for the epoxy to get a good grip.

That's a great looking blade, Hamish, looking forward to seeing it finished!

 

[Dave]

Just out of interest on the historical use of the seax in battle, did they use it with a sword, or was it a back up if you lost your sword and shield or what?

 

[juttle]

Hamish,

If the link works, this is an example of the long handle that I was on about!

 

[mrcharly]

Just out of interest on the historical use of the seax in battle, did they use it with a sword, or was it a back up if you lost your sword and shield or what?

Mostly people used spears back then and a seax was a backup/close quarters weapon