Adam's excellent proofing adventure. (aka: I treated the Ventile)

[bushtuckerman]

Spacemonkey, how did your friend get on with his jacket? don't mean to dig up finished threads but am interested in the differences between the various proofings for cotton, i would have assumed that nikwax being water-based (according to nikwax's site anyway, although i don't quite understand the difference between that and being silicone based which others have mentioned), would still allow water to bond with the cotton when wet since it is soluble in water. Just a thought.

-ian

 

[addyb]

Nah, Nikwax is silicone based, as far as I know. It's a lot more environmentally friendly than Grangers or Storm, which are flourocarbon based treatments. You just have to use more of it as Flourocarbon proofings are more concentrated.

I'd totally forgotten that I'd started this thread, because it was a long time ago. Truthfully, I've become a little less impressed with the Storm proofing of my anorak. For a while, I was expecting the water to simply bead up like it does on my nylon based Entrant jacket. But it doesn't, at least not to the same degree.

When it starts to rain, and I'm wearing the anorak, the water beads, but then soaks in. This I'm not too worried about, as it allows Ventile to do exactly what it's supposed to do, swell, get stiff, and become highly water resistant. It also dries a bit faster than it used to, provided I'm wearing it. But...the proofing didn't really do what I expected it to do. It's not a big deal, I still stay dry. It just didn't do quite as much "beading" as I expected it to. Mind you, the proofing was VERY effective, but only for a short while. It's almost non-existant now.

I've even heat-treated it twice since I proofed it, and it doesn't make much of a difference. So, I'm at a bit of a loss for words, and a little embarassed at my excitement about proofings back when I started this thread. It seems that it worked wonders on my anorak for a while, but not anymore.

If someone wants to take a stab at this, I'd appreciate it.

Adam

 

[oetzi]

At this point, I was reading to call back, and scream at the manager. Honestly, what kind of outdoor gear store hires employees that don't know the basic points about gear? It's a sad sad day I tell you.



A.

You are not alone there. Cotton is way too oldfashioned to be of interest for the average shop. Everyone and his uncle wants to buy "one of these jackets which are waterproof and dont make you sweat".
When I browsed the bikeshops looking for old centerpull-brakes, nine out of ten people asked didnt know what this it. But thats what you get when (especially in germany) the only people getting hired are below 25. I only have to think of my colleagues at work who - naturally - have no expirience of things older than five years and still think the sun shines out of their collective a....

 

[Rod]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away... I had an army cadet issue cotton/ventile smock anorak. I was told by my RSM to get it dry cleaned and re-proofed (at the dry cleaners). This seemed to do the trick - many long wet afternoons crawling through bracken and ferns on the local common passed quiet comfortably. It was good for climbing/mountain trekking in all but the worst weather.

I don't know if that will help anyone. The other thing that occurs is to contact West Winds clothing, who make the posh Ventile jackets - they should give you some sound advice on how to clean/reproof your gear. Here'e their webpage http://www.west-winds.co.uk/


all the best

 

[Stew]

I don't know if that will help anyone. The other thing that occurs is to contact West Winds clothing, who make the posh Ventile jackets - they should give you some sound advice on how to clean/reproof your gear. Here'e their webpage http://www.west-winds.co.uk/

You know, that's a really good idea! Now why didn't I think of that...

 

[innocent bystander]

Just in case anyones interested, Talbot Weaving recommend using Grangers Xtreme Waterproofing for Naturals. :

 

[Ahjno]

This might be of some interest for some of you guys, especially Adam, being up in freezing Canada:

http://www.debenhams.com/jv/product...OLDER<>folder_id=8377025&bmUID=1138039252031#

Thread on British Blades for more info about sizing, price and nice pics:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16315

 

[addyb]

Ahjno, that's NOT funny!

Right now in BC, the sun is shining, there is not a cloud in the sky, and it's about 10 degrees celcius outside.

I don't need that parka unless I'm "Up North" so to speak!



Cheers,

Adam

 

[mattouthere]

Nikwax do not recommend applying any of their proofing products to ventile as in their testing they found that restricting the swelling of the fibres could impair the funtionality of the material. Ventile has worked very well for years without any treatments. Of course in certain conditions applying Nikwax Techwash and Cotton Proof will allow water to bead up giving the impression that the material's water resistancy has improved. But as most treatments only cover the fibres and not the holes in fabric, water will push through given enough pressure and time. The coating will stop the fibres from swelling and you will then feel that the performance of the material has decreased.

As far as Storm waterproofing goes, this was invented? by an ex employee of Grangers and has similar characteristics IE flurocarbons and heat activated. But it does not seem to have the durability of the new range of Nikwax products.

 

[bushtuckerman]

Thanks matt, very useful comments. Do you know what grangers or storm proof say about ventile? I get the impression they are better suited to it.

 

[Spacemonkey]

Spacemonkey, how did your friend get on with his jacket? don't mean to dig up finished threads but am interested in the differences between the various proofings for cotton, i would have assumed that nikwax being water-based (according to nikwax's site anyway, although i don't quite understand the difference between that and being silicone based which others have mentioned), would still allow water to bond with the cotton when wet since it is soluble in water. Just a thought.

-ian

Not much. He's been too lazy to do anything about it....

 

[bushtuckerman]

Does anyone know whether nikwax 'loft tech wash' would harm or improve ventile? i want to clean my jacket, as i think the previous owner may have used something on it, it may just be washing liquid/powder residue that i see on it.

thanks

-ian

 

[Spacemonkey]

I'm sure i read somewhere recently that Nikwax shouldn't be used on ventile. I would have thought that ventile on it's own would have been good enough??

 

[bushtuckerman]

I understood that it was the silicone that was detrimental to ventile (as with you friend's coat), i don't know whether the tech wash is silicone or water based though. I didn't mean improve as in DWR, i meant in order to improve it's breathability etc, since i think it has possibly been coated in something like nikwax previously, and i want to wash (tech wash) it out. it is also rather old so may be a bit clogged with dirt anyway.

If the tech wash is not suitable then is there something else i can wash it with (bearing in mind it has to be hand washed because of the taped seams)?

cheers

 

[mattouthere]

Nikwax Tech wash is a liquid soap cleaner. It does not contain any silicone and is fine to treat ventile. It will help to get rid of detergent residues that are Hydrophillic and will help to suck water through the ventile rather then into the ventile. Some of their proofers are silicone based and although not recommended for the performance of ventile as mentioned in my previous post will not harm the material.

Bear in mind that we live for the enjoyment that the outdoors brings, we need to look at the products that Nikwax, Grangers, Storm et al make and ensure that we chose the environmentally friendly ones from their ranges.

 

[bushtuckerman]

Thanks mate, that's what i wanted to know .

I agree, i don't know exactly what they put in the tech wash so i'll see if i can find out, but i have no intention of using fluorocarbons.If i object to compulsory fluoride in our water then i should object to putting harmful chemicals into the water source of another (not saying i know the practical and chemical difference between them when they enter the environment though).

 

[addyb]

You know, it's very cool that you guys have been so helpful to me in this thread. And after consideration, I've decided that I'm not going to bother proofing or treating my Ventile any longer. I spent the money on a fluorocarbon treatment for it, and truthfully, it did more harm than good. If I could find some sort of treatment for Ventile that would increase how water beads on the fabric but at the same time not inhibit the swelling properties of the fibres, I would be all for it. But....I don't think I'll ever find a substance that does both. Beading and water absorbtion are two opposites, and probably can't work together.

Besides, Ventile worked completely fine back in 1942 without treatments. I suppose it's sortof like what the Zippo lighter company says about it's old fashioned technology "Why fix what isn't broken?"

Adam

 

[Graham O]

I can't give any recommendations about what to treat Ventile with, but I can offer the following. The original Ventile, and still produced on the same equipment, is the L19 variant and if used for flying suits, has no proofing on it whatsoever. The intention is that it should absorb water and expand/contract (could we call it Ventile-ate?) as soon as possible. When an ejected pilot hits the water, he will typically go down about 5m and by the time he comes back up to the surface, his suit is fully waterproof and he is dry.
For the consumer market, we are concerned about the weight of our garments and their cosmetic appearance. By adding a small proofing to the Ventile, it sheds light showers and resists soiling. In time, the proofing will wear off and the fabric will absorb water immediately it comes in contact with it.

I hope that is of some interest.

 

[bushtuckerman]

is that because L19 is not so tightly woven as the other grades that it Ventil-ates so readily? Do they use one layer in flying suits?

 

[Graham O]

is that because L19 is not so tightly woven as the other grades that it Ventil-ates so readily? Do they use one layer in flying suits?

Quite the opposite. L19 is very tightly woven on old machines. These produce cloth which is just 90cm wide rather than the more modern machines which produce cloth 155cm wide. The bar which pushes the weft into the fabric (haven't got a clue what it is called) is narrower and being made of cast iron, doesn't bend like the newer machines. This gives a very tight weave across the fabric. Normal Ventile, L24 or L34 has 12000 threads across the width. L19, despite being much narrower, also has 12000 threads. It is an interesting process.

This was all information I was told some time ago when I visited the mill, but whether it is still current I don't know. With the way things change, I'm probably talking a load of .........!

Don't know for sure about the number of layers on the flying suits, but I think it is just one.