A Question Of Blades....
- Thread starter Hjaltlander
- Start date
but only for one type of each of the many steels that can be called carbon or stainlessrisby said:
420j2 is nothing like VG10 or s30V
IMHO it seems easier to get a good knife for little money if you go with carbon. The carbon knives I sell are cheaper then the stainles counterparts yet for people who don't mind the additional care this isn't a problem (I'd force a pitana on such knives myself)
If your spending more money to get a upper end of the knife market such as a custom then the cost in steel may be a small % difference and be less of an issue
FWIW I use both and don't care but I've got knives that would cost more then I could justfy spending
Ok folks, this is a discussion about knives, not people. Let's keep it that way. If you want to continue discussing personalities, you can take it off line. This is not an issue open for debate.
2.4 Million years ago people started using stone for tools, 6500 years ago they decided copper was better.
5000 years ago it was Bronze that was the dogs dodahs then iron 3500 years ago.
1600 years ago they invented steel and people have been arguing about it ever since.
Has anybody ever met anyone who had a decent knife that was incapable of being used for bushcraft?
5000 years ago it was Bronze that was the dogs dodahs then iron 3500 years ago.
1600 years ago they invented steel and people have been arguing about it ever since.
Has anybody ever met anyone who had a decent knife that was incapable of being used for bushcraft?
There are two stories to stainless that crop up repeatedly, one from old craftsmen that say that stainless won't take or hold a sharp edge, and the other from people who are a little more familiar with high spec modern alloys saying that stainless is really hard to sharpen. These get repeated so often that they are almost taken on faith. Neither is really true. I have had more "debates" with old guys than I care to remember, and regrettably my patience has worn a bit thin. 
I would be the first to say that I know very little about the vast subject of steel metallurgy, despite having made a serious attempt to educate myself over the last several months. The more I read the more I learn how little I know . The most noteable thing I have learned though is that there are no aboslutes when discussing a finished blade. There are so many variables, just in the steel and its treatment, that if you make any statement to the effect that carbon steel is XXX compared to stainless, you are almost certain to have it wrong for some cases. Maybe a lot of cases.
For general information, the FAQ thread is a THREAD. I was hoping that others would add links to good info, and better yet, write answers to things they saw cropping up as repeat questions. Some have and I have copied their posts and pasted them into the first post of the thread. Over all though the response has been rather poor. I am sure that the drop off in written content towards the end of the list is noticeable and frankly that was just me getting fed up and tired.
Its probably better that I not say how I feel at someone suggesting that I only wrote that stuff and compiled the links as some sort of ego boost.
I feel a little guilty at my lack of restraint on my first post, but I no longer feel like making more effort to back peddle. I think that the steel question has been covered very well by others. Andy, Andyb, Squidders, and G Obach, :notworthy
I would be the first to say that I know very little about the vast subject of steel metallurgy, despite having made a serious attempt to educate myself over the last several months. The more I read the more I learn how little I know
. The most noteable thing I have learned though is that there are no aboslutes when discussing a finished blade. There are so many variables, just in the steel and its treatment, that if you make any statement to the effect that carbon steel is XXX compared to stainless, you are almost certain to have it wrong for some cases. Maybe a lot of cases.For general information, the FAQ thread is a THREAD. I was hoping that others would add links to good info, and better yet, write answers to things they saw cropping up as repeat questions. Some have and I have copied their posts and pasted them into the first post of the thread. Over all though the response has been rather poor. I am sure that the drop off in written content towards the end of the list is noticeable and frankly that was just me getting fed up and tired.
Its probably better that I not say how I feel at someone suggesting that I only wrote that stuff and compiled the links as some sort of ego boost.
I feel a little guilty at my lack of restraint on my first post, but I no longer feel like making more effort to back peddle. I think that the steel question has been covered very well by others. Andy, Andyb, Squidders, and G Obach, :notworthy
C_Claycomb said:I would be the first to say that I know very little about the vast subject of steel metallurgy, despite having made a serious attempt to educate myself over the last several months. The more I read the more I learn how little I know
OK, so there are no valid or useful generalisations about steel, fair enough (except that one
. I won't be committing that sin again.I came across bushcraft knives via cooking knives, of which I have about twenty, and they are all stainless steel. I have long been disappointed in my ability to sharpen them and was very pleasantly surprised at how easy it was in comparison to get the Frost's Mora carbon steel very sharp.
This experience prompted me to do a bit of learning and I now have more sharpening devices than you can shake a stick at. The Spyderco Sharpmaker has done wonders for my kitchen knives.
C_Claycomb said:Its probably better that I not say how I feel at someone suggesting that I only wrote that stuff and compiled the links as some sort of ego boost.
I feel a little guilty at my lack of restraint on my first post, but I no longer feel like making more effort to back peddle. I think that the steel question has been covered very well by others. Andy, Andyb, Squidders, and G Obach, :notworthy
I'm sorry that you feel bad about my response. I appreciate that writing the FAQ was generous and public spirited but expressing anger and directing it at my comments made me feel bad as well which affected my response. However, I agree that my understanding was simplistic and that I may have been guilty of promulgating a myth but it seemed to fit my experience as I have described above.
I wish you well, C.
Just my opinion
in the past... stainless would not have been a choice of mine...... simply, i've used those kinds of knives and they wouldn't hold a very good edge....... it gets to be a pain when your skinning a deer and have to resharpen 10 times..
-- but now a days...... the stainless alloy technology and heat treatments are very good and they make excellent knives......
and a while back... i did buy a knife with an ats-34 blade... its ok... not too bad to sharpen since its hollow ground.....edgeholding is so-so
haven't tried any of the powder steels, yet..
-- but even more recently....i picked up some A2 (airkool) barstock... and forged this to shape... very nice steel, hard to sharpen, and holds a very nice edge....... now this steel is somewheres inbetween stainless and carbon...... still is a tough steel for a knife..
tough enough that i'd trust A2 if i forged it into a larger bowie knife...
52100.... is a real fine steel..... edge holding giant..... if you buff it alot...it will even resist rust ... abit..
sorry to rattle on like that....... steel is so much fun
Greg
in the past... stainless would not have been a choice of mine...... simply, i've used those kinds of knives and they wouldn't hold a very good edge....... it gets to be a pain when your skinning a deer and have to resharpen 10 times..
-- but now a days...... the stainless alloy technology and heat treatments are very good and they make excellent knives......
and a while back... i did buy a knife with an ats-34 blade... its ok... not too bad to sharpen since its hollow ground.....edgeholding is so-so
haven't tried any of the powder steels, yet..
-- but even more recently....i picked up some A2 (airkool) barstock... and forged this to shape... very nice steel, hard to sharpen, and holds a very nice edge....... now this steel is somewheres inbetween stainless and carbon...... still is a tough steel for a knife..
tough enough that i'd trust A2 if i forged it into a larger bowie knife...
52100.... is a real fine steel..... edge holding giant..... if you buff it alot...it will even resist rust ... abit..
sorry to rattle on like that....... steel is so much fun
Greg
risby said:
I don't think Mr Claycomb was being bellicose or arrogant. He may have displayed some frustration and asperity at missinformation given to the original poster in this thread, but can you blame him? He is young and missguidedly keen to be helpful and to educate the ignorant.
Me? Well, I'm well past all that nonsense. In the years I studied to gain my B.Sc honours degree in metallurgy -and afterwards- I learned that it was a complex and complicated subject, demanding of intellectual rigour. There are no short cuts to real knowledge in this field.
Burnt Ash
I have not come across a knife I could not sharpen. There is no secret, just use the right tools for the job. Knives can be hard to sharpen for a number of reasons.
The first is the stone you are using is too small, too soft, too fine for quick metal removal, clogged up or not lubricated enough. Use a good stone in good condition and it will work.
The second is the edge is too thick. A lot of manufacturers make their knives too thick at the edge and sharpen them at too obtuse an angle. Avoid knives with thick edges and reprofile the sharpening angle if necessary.
The third is leaving the sharpening until the knife gets very dull, its easier to maintain a good edge with light but frequent sharpenings so it never gets too dull.
The fourth is good technique. Steel is hard and knife steel if its any good is very hard. You need to maintain a consistent angle, even pressure and cover the entire edge. Patience really is a virture in sharpening. Use firm strokes and as much of the stone as possible. Use the biggest stone you can get and hold it down firmly. Wash away the dirt frequently. The best stone I have found are DMT diamond stones, quick and easy to use, cuts fast and easy to clean with water.
Lastly, make sure you get rid of the wire edge with finer stones and if you want a razor edge, a leather strop loaded with a very fine abrasive like metal polish. Steels differ in the wire edge they produce and some are bigger and harder to remove than others.
Use the above as a guide and you will be able to keep any knife sharp whether its made of soft stainless or the hardest tool steel.
The first is the stone you are using is too small, too soft, too fine for quick metal removal, clogged up or not lubricated enough. Use a good stone in good condition and it will work.
The second is the edge is too thick. A lot of manufacturers make their knives too thick at the edge and sharpen them at too obtuse an angle. Avoid knives with thick edges and reprofile the sharpening angle if necessary.
The third is leaving the sharpening until the knife gets very dull, its easier to maintain a good edge with light but frequent sharpenings so it never gets too dull.
The fourth is good technique. Steel is hard and knife steel if its any good is very hard. You need to maintain a consistent angle, even pressure and cover the entire edge. Patience really is a virture in sharpening. Use firm strokes and as much of the stone as possible. Use the biggest stone you can get and hold it down firmly. Wash away the dirt frequently. The best stone I have found are DMT diamond stones, quick and easy to use, cuts fast and easy to clean with water.
Lastly, make sure you get rid of the wire edge with finer stones and if you want a razor edge, a leather strop loaded with a very fine abrasive like metal polish. Steels differ in the wire edge they produce and some are bigger and harder to remove than others.
Use the above as a guide and you will be able to keep any knife sharp whether its made of soft stainless or the hardest tool steel.
I agree. No knife, no matter how old, dull, or filthy cannot be sharpened. All it takes is some knowledge, some practice, and a good deal of time.
Adam
Adam
