A Question Of Blades....

[Hjaltlander]

Hi All,

Time to ask a silly question, but I just want to get it right in my head first, so I know what to ask for, when the time comes around for me to buy a "proper" knife.

Stainless steel, doesn't rust, but not so good to light a firesteel?

Carbon steel rusts, but good on firesteel?

Am I right so far?

Damascus steel, is the art of folding steel, so as it is stronger, gives a lovely pattern on blade, so, would this be technicaly carbon steel?

Anyway, if someone could let me know if I am in the right ball park, or not.

Cheers, Hjaltlander

 

[Marts]

Stainless steel says it in the name - stain LESS. It can still rust. Just not as quickly as carbon steel. A stainless blade can still throw sparks from a ferrocium rod/ firesteel/ stick of magic fire.. whatever you want to call it.

 

[risby]

Time to ask a silly question, but I just want to get it right in my head first, so I know what to ask for, when the time comes around for me to buy a "proper" knife.

Stainless steel, doesn't rust, but not so good to light a firesteel?

Carbon steel rusts, but good on firesteel?

Am I right so far?

Damascus steel, is the art of folding steel, so as it is stronger, gives a lovely pattern on blade, so, would this be technicaly carbon steel?

High carbon steel is softer and so easier to sharpen than stainless but it also doesn't stay sharp as long as stainless. Some of the newest super steels, once sharpened, may hardly require sharpening again, depending on usage of course.

Bushcrafters generally prefer high carbon because of the ease of getting a sharp edge and we probably quite like acquiring the skill of sharpening our own knives.

 

[Shing]

Damascus steel is layers of different steels that are welded and forged together to make a pattern like grain in wood. It can be made of either carbon steel or stainless steel. It can be etched wirth acid to reveal the different layers, different steels etch at different rates and have different crystaline structures so appear distinct from each other.

Damascus steel is made primary for its appearance. A lot of things were said about it when it was new to market but it is seldom better in terms of cutting ability or toughness compared to top quality homogenous knife steel.

 

[G Obach]

ask yourself........what kind of demands will you be placing on this knife... then go from there to decide which steels.....
-- also ...how much are you willing to spend.... there are lots of trendy steels out there with superior claims, high price tags....

lots to think about

Greg

 

[BorderReiver]

No knife will rust (as in be useless) if looked after properly.Just don't expect a carbon knife to last long on the beach

Carbon steel knives may not glint in the sunlight after some use but that's not what a knife is for.

Carbon steel is easier to sharpen in the field because of the "softness".

 

[C_Claycomb]

Carbon steel is easier to sharpen in the field because of the "softness".

High carbon steel is softer and so easier to sharpen than stainless but it also doesn't stay sharp as long as stainless.

:aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4:

No, No. NO.

If you are going to post information that is a vast over simplification, PLEASE say so in the post. Let others know that what you are saying is incomplete.

Hjaltlander, please go and read the FAQ thread at the start of Edged Tools. This is what it is there for. Having read it, and some of the pages it links to, you will be in a better position to ask pointed questions, or maybe even answer your own.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8793

 

[G Obach]

actually the RC hardness of most carbon knives is close to the same as stainless..... the carbon contributes the most to hardness...

the Cr adds to wear resistence and deeper hardening... ... the wear resistence makes them harder to sharpen

eutectoid of plain carbon steel is about .77% ....so this is the most carb to go into solution.. the rest goes into carbides

very tough knives can be made from simple steels that can be easily sharpened into working edges.. .. and kept shiny with a lite coat of oil

for even more demanding steel examples......look at the type of steels used in Good sword blades..... this will tell you what truly is durable steel

personally... i definitely lean towards carbon steels .... so take this for what it is..

ps.... also look into blade geometry.... a blade with super thick bevels can be a pita to get a good edge on

 

[C_Claycomb]

G Obach, very well pointed out. what can I say, I was having a bad day at work

I know that some people will say that stainless steels can be hard to sharpen, but I have not noticed this. I have several S30V bladed knives from different sources, one with BG-42, another with ATS-34 and one of D2. I have sharpened all on my Japanese waterstones with little difficulty. In the field the little diamond or ceramic pockent hones are so easy (light and compact) to carry, that it is a moot point about whether the steel is slightly harder to sharpen or not. Everything sharpens about the same on diamond.

I have had more trouble with knives that have poor edge geometry, too thick, or those that have very thin, very hard edges, such as Japanese chef's knives, than I have had with stainless vs carbon.

Hjaltlander, when it comes time to get a "proper" knife, there are more important things to consider than whether it is stainless or not. The heat treatment is important, as are the ergonomics, the edge geometry and skill with which the knife has been assembled. Unless you need ultimate chopping toughness, or ultimate corrosion resistance, the simple choice of stainless or not shouldn't be the lead factor.

 

[risby]

I just want to ... know what to ask for, when the time comes around for me to buy a "proper" knife.

eutectoid of plain carbon steel is about .77% ....so this is the most carb to go into solution.. the rest goes into carbides

I'm guessing here but I reckon this is slightly more info than Hjaltlander wanted. Surely it's not necessary for him to take a Materials Science degree before buying himself a decent knife.

 

[Neiltoo]

:aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4:

No, No. NO.

If you are going to post information that is a vast over simplification, PLEASE say so in the post. Let others know that what you are saying is incomplete.

Hjaltlander, please go and read the FAQ thread at the start of Edged Tools. This is what it is there for. Having read it, and some of the pages it links to, you will be in a better position to ask pointed questions, or maybe even answer your own.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8793

Im sure you are right but isnt that a bit harsh ?

 

[Nemisis]

One idea is to get a couple of clippers one in stainless one in carbon both excellent knives use them to practice handling and sharpening till you feel ready to move onto something "better" you should find both for £20 or less. Don't be put off by the price this is one case of getting far more than your paying for.
Dave.

 

[Wayland]

All other factors aside, using a carbon steel blade will teach you how to look after a knife better than a stainless blade will.

 

[Hjaltlander]

Hi Guys,

Thank you ALL for your replies, Sorry I didn't read the FAQ, just assumed it would be about, what to post/not to post on here, didn't realise it was so informative, doh!

Yes, I wasn't looking for a degree course in structural materials, lol! Just general info, on the differences between, stainless, carbon and damascus, in layman terms.

I heard somewhere stainless wasn't so good at giving a spark, obviously I got it wrong with the fire steel, but it was with flint, well ok. I learned something here...

Anyway, thanks all again, for your replies, Hjaltlander

 

[C_Claycomb]

Gaa took too long to reply

If I had wished to be harsh to people asking questions I would have a stock response telling them to go look on British Blades, and I would not have bothered spending time starting that FAQ thread. There is so much that could be said about steel that I reckon the best way to answer such questions is to point someone in the right direction and let them get on with it. Almost any short answer is bound to be somewhat incomplete otherwise.

This will probably come back to bite me, but

I'm guessing here but I reckon this is slightly more info than Hjaltlander wanted. Surely it's not necessary for him to take a Materials Science degree before buying himself a decent knife.

If we only post the minimum information to answer someone's question, how can they learn more than they know to ask for?

No degree needed, but the realisation that there might be more to it than "Oh, that's stainless, that will be hard to sharpen." could induce someone to do a little more research before parting with money.

 

[G Obach]

i aggree... good info will help to make sound decisions...

yes... were abit over zealous but its for a good cause !
I find that owning a decent knife is a pleasure.... especially if your an avid outdoorsmen... but on the otherhand..... having a bad knife is like having a thorn in your side.... being a tool, its just gotta function well to make your life easier...

also.... think of the future.... your more than likely going to pass a good blade along to the youngsters..


Greg

 

[Squidders]

Actually G Obach, I'm glad you made your post, it's consise and made sense to me.

There's a fine balance when it comes to anticipating what information someone wants and needs but I think giving more than enough information is always good - i'm always up for a bit more in-depth knowledge

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Neiltoo]

Gaa took too long to reply



......If we only post the minimum information to answer someone's question, how can they learn more than they know to ask for?

This would tend to assume that everyone has the same amount of knowledge about any given subject and that no-one should answer a question unless they are certain that they have given a complete and full explanation of the subject, would it not?

 

[risby]

This will probably come back to bite me, but

If we only post the minimum information to answer someone's question, how can they learn more than they know to ask for?

No degree needed, but the realisation that there might be more to it than "Oh, that's stainless, that will be hard to sharpen." could induce someone to do a little more research before parting with money.

Hi, I'm back for a bite. Your attitude seemed surprisingly bellicose, intolerant and a bit arrogant I thought. Screaming NO NO NO and then directing peeps to your own FAQ kind of suggests that you and you only know the real truth about this subject. I know emails are easy to misinterpret and I'm sure you're a lovely chap really but did I really misinterpret that headbanging emoticon.

I much prefer the attitude that Nemisis displayed by suggesting getting a knive of each steel type in a Mora and trying them out. I would add that opinels are also available in both steel types and only cost about a fiver. This allows the OP to come to his own opinion empirically.

 

[addyb]

"The Great Debate"

Isn't it true that if carbon steel is tempered very hard, such as 60hrc it will stay sharp for quite a while but also the same with stainless?

Of course, with stainless steel, elements like vanadium and chromium are added to increase the wear resistance. This is why stainless is harder to sharpen, isn't it? (I could be wrong, blades aren't really my forte')

From my own bit of experience and from what I've read, I don't think that carbon is much "better" than stainless these days, or vice versa.

I don't use carbon blades anymore because the area I live in is a very damp climate, and even if I kept my carbon blades wiped with oil, they would oxidize very quickly. And that's why I stick to stainless blades now.

Isn't it odd that for every postive aspect of a material, there's also a negative to it? There is sooooo much more to knives than just the steel in them, and it took me a very long time to learn that. Blade shape, grind, and areas of use also come into play. A blade of poor steel with a good temper will out perform a blade of good with a poor temper.

Murphy's Law at it's best!

Adam