a bowyer/fletcher question

[grey-array]

Hey everyone,

A while ago I made myself a bow that I am well chuffed about, at Wayne Jones's site at Forest Knights
And now I finally got around to making some arrows.
Even though I already have some experience in fletching, I do not know as much as I would like about shafts materials.
Pre info, I reckon to need a 32, to 33 inch arrow ( my drawlength being 30 1/2 inches)

Thus I have a couple of questions.

1st. I am looking for some durable arrows, the types of shafts that are readily available to me are: Birch ( which I figured to be the most durable?), Poplar, Cedar( which I figured to be the least durable), northern Pine and Spruce. I was looking for some info about pro's and con's on those arrow woods. and possibly desire thicknesses.
I also understood that the thicker the shaft the less likely it is to break even if it has the same spine value as a thinner one, is that correct?

2nd. I Still need to figure out what my necessary spine strength needs to be, my bow being handmade, I have no clue on the poundage ( though I figure around 40 odd pounds) or the deflection of the handle.
So is there an easy way to determine the value you would need for the spine of your arrows.

3rd This also will be my first time inserting horn in the notches of the arrow, is there anything I need to look out for, like perhaps not making the cut into just summer or springwood, or making sure it is perpendicular to the end grain?

Yours sincerely Ruud

And if anyone would like a tutorial on this I would gladly make one in the process.
We could adjust all the faults in technique etc, while doing the aftermath with the brilliant fletchers I am sure roam this forum.

 

[yarrow]

On a 40lb bow your arrows don't need to be super tough. In answer to question 1 - our ancestors knew a thing or too learn from them. Ash is about the toughest arrow shaft used for war bow well above 100lb draw weight. For speed of manufacture, hazel and river cane are very hard to beat. However natural shafts like that need attention every now and again to keep them really straight.

A good way to match a specific bow with correctly spined arrows is to have a set of arrows with graduated spine weights. Take your bow out and shoot all the arrows. Repeat this several times and you will soon recognise the arrow that shoots the best. Note its spine weight and then make a set at that weight.

Cant help you with question 3 as I have never used horn inserts.

 

[dwardo]

Keep in mind the spine of the arrow can also be affected by the shape of the arrow pass, more so with a self made bow. Although you will get a rough idea just by the poundage of the bow. This is why its best to have a play with a few spine types if possible. I do the same as yarrow and have a few arrows of differing spines and just see what its likes.
As yarrow says pretty much any decent arrow material will do you at that weight and most hunting weights. I use Cedar as its easy for me to get at a decent price properly spined.
I have only attempted to make a few arrows from scratch and the spine was rightly all over the place.

Never tried horn inserts as I have never needed the extra reinforcement they provide, think warbow weights.

 

[ateallthepies]

I never found spine to be that important on my up to 50Lbs bows, never experienced the Paradox, though the arrows have been spined no more than 10lbs each way of the bow weight. I've used Cedar and Spruce, both good!

I like my arrows to have a decent overhang, so with your draw I would go for at least 3 inches past your draw to the tip of the arrow.

The most important things when selecting arrows for spine is the bow draw weight and how far the arrow is off from the bow string, the more for each the more spine becomes important.

When making the notch cut it is perpendicular to the annual rings not grain. You wont be able to tell how the grain runs.

Steve

 

[boatman]

Two notches necessary for an inset. The first in which you insert your horn wedge then cut across that to form the nock.

 

[grey-array]

Hiya guys,

Thanks all of you for the superspeed response on this,

Yarrow, thanks for that and I will be having a wee look around to see if there are any Ash shafts available for a decent price in my neighbourhood as I do love the touch and rigidity I am used to from ash.
Also seems like I'm going out for a shoot, with other people's arrows ^^.
And Dwardo, indeed the arrow pass was the thing I worried about most as to be fair it is a bit wider then you would see on those take down competition bows, and might Ash be unavailable I will be looking for some Cedar shaft to put everything to the test!
And Steve, we still have to see what my bow is going to do with the arrows, but I have seen the problem before with 36 inch arrow being to flexible while being used on a modern version of a hungarian riding bow. but I also keep in account that there will be a tip adding a bout 1,5 inches to the entire length, so might be about right what I was thinking. plus I rarely go full draw as I am more into instinctual shooting. anbd I will see what will happen and report back here my findings, and also yeah, I could come up with the word for the growth rings, but thank you for correcting me to avoid confusions ^^ thanks for your input!
And Boatman, I understood that part but thanks anyway for dropping it in here, appreciated

Yours sincerely Ruud

 

[Grooveski]

Bear in mind that Ash and Birch arrows are a fair bit heavier than Cedar.
Last week I was using a set of birch arrows with my new 48lb flatbow and they were dropping like a rock beyond about 40m and barely making it 80-odd metres when I tried for distance. At close to 800 grains they're more than half again the weight of a Cedar arrow(which usually come out at around 500 grains).
Was only using them because they're the closest I have in spine to what the bow is after. I'll definately be knocking up a set of Cedars for it though, was using a set of my dad's the weekend before and they were flying much flatter. Point-on distance was down from 36m to about 28m which is a huge difference(and meant that for the 40-50m range that I was shooting the target was totaly hidden by my hand).

Another part of the equation worth mentioning is changing point weight - a heavier point effectively reduces the spine of the arrow. You can get test kits with three or four points each of varying weights. The sets I got ran from 85gn to 200gn and I bought enough sets to have a dozen of each plus spares(and ones to actually test with).
The Birch arrows I was talking about before are using 145gn points because when I first made them up they were grouping to the left. Was only a couple of inches at 20m(less than the difference between two sets of shafts in 5lb spine intervals). Knocking up the point weight by 20gns caused the arrow to bend just a little more and pulled them into line.

...but the heavier the point weight the more front-heavy the arrows are and front-heavy arrows drop off quicker.

Starting to sound like a well dodgy set of arrows but they're great out of the bow they were made for. It's a modern affair that spits them out much quicker and I made the arrows deliberately to be heavy and tough.

It's a juggling act between bow weight, arrow pass width, arrow weight, arrow length, arrow spine, point weight and FOC distance. Even the diameter of the shaft has a bearing...
...as do the feathers. Longer feathers will draw the arrow over to the left slightly and vice-versa(right-handed archer). It's not much but it's there.

If I bare shaft arrows(shoot them with no feathers) and they group slightly to the right it's big grin time because I know when the feathers go on the arrows will come left a bit and if it's not enough I can shorten the arrows until they do come into line or go down to a 100gn point. (I generally shorten them, I make all my arrows an inch longer than I really need partly so there's that bit of leeway to play with.
Bareshafting and grouping left causes more of a frown. Can't lengthen the arrows, adding point weight will bring them over but as mentioned earlier will cause them to drop off quicker, really the answer is to sand the shafts to lower the spine which I've done a few times but only to individual arrows, never done a full set.

 

[Grooveski]

In case it's of use here's the results of my testing and the thinking behind my choice of shaft for the (48lb) flatbow. All arrows were 30".

2018s way too stiff. Arrows bang back against the pass as soon as it leaves the string, hit well left(over a foot at 30m).
2016s still a touch stiff. Arrows still left(about 6" @ 30m). No banging with bow upright but still a fair old click when canted.
1616s way too low in spine. Over a foot right and a couple in the net.

50-55 Cedars 11/32 with 125gn points acted exactly like the 2016s.
Didn't try the 55-60 Cedars, they'd have been just like the 2018s.
55-60 Birch 11/32 with 145gn points very similar to 2016s again but no bang or click when canted so I was canting a bit more which helped to adjust for the arrows being stiff. Best so far but still not right. Way too heavy.

So it's 45-50 Cedar and I'm going to go for 5/16s to keep the weight down and smaller feathers(maybe four inch rather than my usual five and a bit). Going down on both spine and diameter is a fair old jump to the right but hopefully they'll fly with 100gn points which would pull them left again.

For alloy equivalents(I prefer alloys for roving) 2014s would be the obvious choice but I've had 14 thou' wall thickness before and they damaged awfully easily so think I'll go with 1916s instead.

I've been presuming you've already seen spine charts. If not apologies, should have posted a link earlier:

http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf

 

[dwardo]

In case it's of use here's the results of my testing and the thinking behind my choice of shaft for the (48lb) flatbow. All arrows were 30".

2018s way too stiff. Arrows bang back against the pass as soon as it leaves the string, hit well left(over a foot at 30m).
2016s still a touch stiff. Arrows still left(about 6" @ 30m). No banging with bow upright but still a fair old click when canted.
1616s way too low in spine. Over a foot right and a couple in the net.

45-50 Cedars 11/32 with 125gn points acted exactly like the 2016s.
Didn't try the 50-55 Cedars, they'd have been just like the 2018s.
50-55 Birch 11/32 with 145gn points very similar to 2016s again but no bang or click when canted so I was canting a bit more which helped to adjust for the arrows being stiff. Best so far but still not right. Way too heavy.

So it's 40-45 Cedar and I'm going to go for 5/16s to keep the weight down and smaller feathers(maybe four inch rather than my usual five and a bit). Going down on both spine and diameter is a fair old jump to the right but hopefully they'll fly with 100gn points which would pull them left again.

For alloy equivalents(I prefer alloys for roving) 2014s would be the obvious choice but I've had 14 thou' wall thickness before and they damaged awfully easily so think I'll go with 1916s instead.

I've been presuming you've already seen spine charts. If not apologies, should have posted a link earlier:

http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf

From now on I am just going to give you the specs of the bow I make and get you to give me the arrow specs Save me a whole load of time.

 

[Grooveski]

I don't even have the nerve to hazard a spec guess for grey-array. My form isn't too hot judging by the number of sets it's taken me to work out the right arrows for my mum(lighter bows seem harder to match ).
It's taken me a couple of tries for some of my own bows too.
Personal preference comes into it as well. I used to prefer stiffer arrows but over time have gone down in spine and bulked out the pass on a few bows. I just like the way whippy arrows spring out, there's a smile factor there somewhere.

Thon heavy birch arrows are for the Riever. By the book they're too light in spine but the shelf has been padded out with leather to up the paradox. The package balanced out and that bow has the power to launch such a heavy arrow(in fact it prefers the weight, they soften the sound and feel nicely - not that it's in any way harsh).
If I want to use the 2018s with it these days I fit them with 145gn points for the session. They fly just as well as they used to with a thinner shelf and 125gn points.

Feathers have been lasting longer since going lighter in spine so fewer clearance issues.

 

[grey-array]

Grooveski, what a star ^^. And yes I have seen bucket loads of spine charts before ^^ as I was researching my way into it.
I made myself and appointment with one of the guys at Fairbow.nl as I had some chats with the guys before and one of the guys told me about some improvised gadget to test exactly what type of arrows would suit me best.
everything from tip weight, to spine strength, length of the feathers and type of nock.

And I must thank you Groovesky, didn't even take in account the huge weight difference of the shaft woods, and I would like to shoot some 80 yard to a 120 yard targets etc, so I might after all go for something in the cedar range might even have a try at making shafts as I have a boatload of cedar scraps of superior quality and dead straight grain. that would mean I also would have to make a spine tester, and get my self a doweler though, hmm that is some brainfood for the coming weeks ^^.

I will have a nice chat and play with some of the guys, and arrows at fairbow and will report my eventual decisions, Thanks, the Lot of you!

And finally, would you guys like an arrow fletching thread/guide?
Yours sincerely Ruud

 

[Grooveski]

That'll be interesting, let us know how it goes.
I know you can get scales (they're a bit like a release aid to look at) that'll map a force/draw curve in a second. With the curve, pass width and experience I reckon folk could get pretty close pretty quick.

Wouldn't be surprised if you end up somewhere similar to what I'm looking at but a couple of inches longer(which would about make up for the difference in bow weight).
Whatever you go for I'd recommend getting a couple of alloy equivalent shafts while you're there. Fit them with big bright feathers and judo points. They'll save you beating up your main set playing around and are nigh-on unlosable.
(beer can alley with judos is a giggle , the impacts and general destruction can be quite dramatic.)

And finally, would you guys like an arrow fletching thread/guide?

No-one ever compains about too many tutorials. It's bound to be of interest to someone.

 

[grey-array]

I have returned from a wonderful Shop, with bows being made right besides me and come with wonderful news ^^

He had a couple of looks at my bow, gave me a few pointers on how to make it a tad more efficient, and after havin a look he judged it to need some arrows in between the 40 to 50 in spine weight.
But seeing the weight of the bow, which is approximately 40pounds, he told me it didnt matter that much as long as I didnt go over board on the stiffness and actually encouraged me to make myself some shafts from scratch.
As I mentioned to him being at the end of a western Red Cedar Canoe build.

I got myself a nice starter bunch of arrow heads, and seeing the fact I wanted me to venture out on my enthusiasm, the dear man discouraged me on getting any other material besides that from his shop.
So I will be havin a wee play around, plus having my new dowler in, since yesterday I will be getting my woodsman groove on and will be reporting back to you guys.
And sadly I didnt get some judo's jet, as I first wanted to try the more traditional fieldtip, and softbods after which I reckon I would have figured out my preferred weight for the heads.

Superb thanks to all of yall and a update coming soon, with some dowling, better go selecting my timber ^^
Yours sincerely Ruud

 

[oldtimer]

I know little about archery from first hand experience, but have just finished reading a fascinating book which would appeal to members because it has a lot about bushcraft in it. He befriended a native American who was the last survivor of his tribe in California which had lived in hiding from the white man

"Hunting with the Bow" by Saxton T Pope was written some time in the 1920's by an American fan of the English longbow and includes detailed instructions on making bows and arrows.

It is available for peanuts on Kindle.

 

[Lupis]

I know little about archery from first hand experience, but have just finished reading a fascinating book which would appeal to members because it has a lot about bushcraft in it. He befriended a native American who was the last survivor of his tribe in California which had lived in hiding from the white man

"Hunting with the Bow" by Saxton T Pope was written some time in the 1920's by an American fan of the English longbow and includes detailed instructions on making bows and arrows.

It is available for peanuts on Kindle.

It's available free from Project Gutenberg.