4x4's and the low emission zone...

[h2o]

alls i know for sure is using a car for a 1 mile journey is bone idol.i aint a scientist just someone who doesnt use the car for small journeys the 4x4 users seem really touchy and try defending the size of their carbon footprints.i find it all quite ammusing the [people who drop the kids off in 4x4s complain when thier little lambs have asmah get the lazy sods to walk or bike it theyll not be quite so plump either.as for my carbon footprint if the government decides to make petrol really expensive ill just jack my job and go on the dole thatd cost em if every1 did that so its better for them to attack 4x4 drivers who usually have jobs paying good money or they couldnt afford to buy or run the said deisal guzzlers

 

[Bernie Garland]

why don't they just say 4x4s can only be sold to people who genuinely need one and use it as intended,i live in a rural area and 400 yds down the road is the village school, every morning it is choc a bloc with top of the range 4x4s,women dropping the kids off all trying to outdo the other with there designer clothes and immaculate hair do,s,the best part is the school is no more than a ten minute walk from any part of the village, so theres no need to drop the kids off,unfortunately i live in the most sought after postcode in derby, and just glad i don't play keep up with the jones's,can't afford to any way

 

[EdS]

first LEZ does not target 4x4 but all lower mgp vehicls. Secondly it is for good vehicles, 4x4 with seat will be exempt.

My daily drive is a Discovery - I need a car for work that can carry me, works gear & MRT gear, just in case. I could drive a estae car but when fully loaded my 1.7td Astra did less mgp than the Disco a you had to work the engine a lot harder. The Disco also runs on a blend of diesel and veg oil - so it has a lower carbo foot print than SWMNBO petrol Fiesta.

It is true diesel do burbn more fuel in the early part of a journey until the engine gets up to temp - usually wwithin 5 minutes.

 

[gregorach]

I have to say I find it somewhat odd that once again this thread has degenerated into pro / anti "4x4s"... If you actually look at the TfL proposals for the Low Emission Zone, you find it says this:

The Low Emission Zone (LEZ) will start on 4 February 2008 and will apply 24 hours a day, every day of the year. It will affect diesel-engined lorries over 12 tonnes in weight.

From July 2008, it will also apply to all lorries over 3.5 tonnes, in addition to buses and coaches.

[...]

The Low Emission Zone (LEZ) will affect older, diesel-engined lorries, buses, coaches and large vans (exceeding 1.205 tonnes unladen weight) and minibuses.

It will also include other specialist vehicles that are derived from lorries and vans including; motorised horse boxes, breakdown and recovery vehicles, refuse collection vehicles, gritters, sweepers, concrete mixers, tippers, removals lorries, fire engines, motor caravans, ambulances and large hearses (over 2.5 tonnes) are also included.

How many mentions of 4x4s? None whatsoever.

 

[Angus Og]

The Low Emission Zone (LEZ) covers most of Greater London, following the Greater London Authority boundary. In some places it deviates from this to allow for suitable alternative routes and turnaround points.

All roads, including certain motorways within the boundary, are included in the zone. The M25 motorway is not included, even where it passes within the boundary.

All parts of the Congestion Charging zone fall within the LEZ. If you drive within it you will need to pay the Congestion Charge in addition to any applicable LEZ charge unless you are exempt or entitled to a 100 per cent discount.

How else are they going to pay for the London Olympics.

I don't drive or have a license. Drive what you want it's called freedom of choice, you pay tax on it when you buy it, tax on fuel and tax to drive on the road. Tax tax tax tax

 

[Chainsaw]

How many mentions of 4x4s? None whatsoever.

Ach dunc you and your facts!

Alan

 

[TallMikeM]

the way I heard it (so it must be right, eh? ) is that diesel landies are being catagorised as goods vehicles (same as light vans) for the purpose of the charge, even if they're station wagons or whatever.

 

[Dano]

can a petrol car be converted to run on chip fat and how big of an area would i need to process it?the car is a merc a140

I have an A140 and a Landy, guess Im sitting on the fence :tapedshut

I think Red Ken's new GATSO's are a bit OTT though

 

[Martyn]

alls i know for sure is using a car for a 1 mile journey is bone idol.

Really?

I work in a hospital. Turning up for work in my uniform, all soaking wet, filthy and sweaty is not going to go down well with my patients. I work shifts and punctuality is important so buses are out. But whether it's idle or not is irrelevant ...it aint illegal mate and until it is, I'll do what I like.

I do know this - YOU make more pollution than I do. You can try and wriggle all you like, you can point fingers at others and scream it's all their fault, your little car might make you feel a bit better about it, maybe even a bit sanctimonious, but YOU still make more pollution than me. So maybe I should ask YOU what you're gonna do to reduce your pollution down to the levels I make?

Until then, you have no argument.

Taxing fuel is the ONLY reasonable way to tax emissions. You should pay more tax than me because you make more pollution than I do. The logic of that is absolutely rock solid and it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of car you drive.

 

[Bernie Garland]

Really?

I work in a hospital. Turning up for work in my uniform, all soaking wet, filthy and sweaty is not going to go down well with my patients. I work shifts and punctuality is important so buses are out. But whether it's idle or not is irrelevant ...it aint illegal mate and until it is, I'll do what I like.

I do know this - YOU make more pollution than I do. You can try and wriggle all you like, you can point fingers at others and scream it's all their fault, your little car might make you feel a bit better about it, maybe even a bit sanctimonious, but YOU still make more pollution than me. So maybe I should ask YOU what you're gonna do to reduce your pollution down to the levels I make?

Until then, you have no argument.

Taxing fuel is the ONLY reasonable way to tax emissions. You should pay more tax than me because you make more pollution than I do. The logic of that is absolutely rock solid and it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of car you drive.

overalls and a brolly should do the trick sorry martyn i had to

 

[Martyn]

the way I heard it (so it must be right, eh? ) is that diesel landies are being catagorised as goods vehicles (same as light vans) for the purpose of the charge, even if they're station wagons or whatever.

I dont think it's just commercials. My Landy is a hard top and the V5 shows it as a "light goods vehicle", yet it wont get hit with the taxes because the engine is a late model TD5 which is Euro III compliant for emissions.

I picked the story up on difflock where a couple of older Landy owners had discovered they were not compliant and would get hit with the tax after 2010.

 

[TallMikeM]

ah, so TD5's are in the clear then. Where do things like those double cab pickups come in the scheme? The TFL site is as much use as a totally useless thing.

 

[Martyn]

overalls and a brolly should do the trick sorry martyn i had to

Well maybe, but you know when the pollution I make is so far below most other people, I dont really understand why I should be walking to work?

The argument seems to be that as I make such little pollution, I should tolerate the rain and cold to make none at all.

Maybe I should move 7 miles away from work, then I could get away with justifying it?

 

[Martyn]

ah, so TD5's are in the clear then. Where do things like those double cab pickups come in the scheme? The TFL site is as much use as a totally useless thing.

I really dont know. I know it's not just "commercial" as my landy is classed as a commercial vehicle and it passes. I think it's a combination of kerb weight, engine type, age and tax classification. It seems to work on a per vehicle basis.

(double cabs are classed as "light commercial vehicles" BTW)

You can check individual vehicle compliance by entering the registration number and model of your vehicle into the calculator on this link...

http://lezlondon.tfl.gov.uk/lez/vehicles/default.aspx

 

[Bernie Garland]

Well maybe, but you know when the pollution I make is so far below most other people, I dont really understand why I should be walking to work?

The argument seems to be that as I make such little pollution, I should tolerate the rain and cold to make none at all.

Maybe I should move 7 miles away from work, then I could get away with justifying it?

i totally agree with what your saying and there should be a higher tax on the fuel.but the average joe public can't afford to pay it,the hauliers would charge more, in turn your food bills would go up, so whats the solution? are they carrying on l like this in the rest of europe, or just here

 

[mr dazzler]

Taxing fuel is the ONLY reasonable way to tax emissions. You should pay more tax than me because you make more pollution than I do. The logic of that is absolutely rock solid and it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of car you drive.

Martyn is right, I have to agree. A lot of the comments are missing the point, petrol makes pollution, the more you burn, the faster you pollute. Dont matter if you have a big car or little car, efficient runner or smoky old banger. Fuel tax IS the way to go in terms of a non class-envy based solution that doesnt discriminate against and reduces legitmiate businesses or rich poncey ostentatious people who have big car's etc to convenient cash cows. Red ken chavez has probably only just realised the olympic's are gonna cost a LOT of money And of course his agenda doesnt follow logic, so he will just capitalise on the opportunity to act the highwayman so he look's cool to the vociferous but minority autophobic car hating lobby.

 

[Bernie Garland]

Originally Posted by Martyn View Post
Taxing fuel is the ONLY reasonable way to tax emissions. You should pay more tax than me because you make more pollution than I do. The logic of that is absolutely rock solid and it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of car you drive.

another point to consider is my situation,i live in a rural village there is one papershop but sells bits and pieces,we no longer have a post office, there is a bus once an hour, none on sundays,i own and run a 4x4 but mine is used as a 4x4 for shooting and helping out are gamekeeper mine spends as much time off road as on road ,but i also need it to get to my nearest asda, as a bus can't get me there,i also need it to get to the next post office which is an 1 and a 1/2 hour round trip on foot, no bus there either, im just average joe public and couldent afford higher taxes,would you feel the same in my position?

 

[Martyn]

i totally agree with what your saying and there should be a higher tax on the fuel.but the average joe public can't afford to pay it,the hauliers would charge more, in turn your food bills would go up, so whats the solution? are they carrying on l like this in the rest of europe, or just here

Well that's the whole point. If those people who are banging on about pollution are genuinely concerned, then they need to accept that it's not "somebody elses" fault, step up and walk the walk themselves. It all about consumerism, hauliage, commercial transport accounts for a huge chunk of it. Yes taxing fuel means everything will get more expensive, because everything burns fuel. But burning fuel = pollution and you cant get away from that equation. If you want to kerb pollution, you need to burn less fuel. Efficient engines help a bit, but the only real way to reduce it is to not burn it in the first place.

Taxation of fuel is the only way to address the issue. Singleing out private 4x4's, or whatever is just political tokenism and has no significant impact on pollution at all. There is more CO2 in a cow-fart than my Landy makes in a year and getting all bent out of shape over private 4x4 owners is a gross misdirection of energy. We need to stop sainsbury's bringing tomatoes from South Africa and use the more expensive local suppliers, something they will never do while their is no commerical incentive.

 

[Martyn]

another point to consider is my situation,i live in a rural village there is one papershop but sells bits and pieces,we no longer have a post office, there is a bus once an hour, none on sundays,i own and run a 4x4 but mine is used as a 4x4 for shooting and helping out are gamekeeper mine spends as much time off road as on road ,but i also need it to get to my nearest asda, as a bus can't get me there,i also need it to get to the next post office which is an 1 and a 1/2 hour round trip on foot, no bus there either, im just average joe public and couldent afford higher taxes,would you feel the same in my position?

I'd have to say yes Bernie. If you are going to tax pollution, then you have to tax how much fuel a person burns. We are all born equal in this life and regardless of someones personal position, there can be no god-given right for one person to make more pollution than another. Mileage is everything, a high mileage means more damage to the roads, more contribution to congestion and more emissions. The only way to put a tax on that which is totally in line with the level of emissions produced, is on fuel. You burn more fuel, you make more pollution, you dont burn fuel, you dont make pollution.

I'm not necessarily saying this is what we should do, but if the government feels it is necessary to inflict economic pressure onto high polluters, then taxing fuel is the ONLY way to go. Singling out particular vehicle types is not only ineffective, but is absolutely wrong. Simply having a JCB parked in your garage doesnt necessarily mean you are polluting, you need to turn the engine on and drive it somewhere to do that ...and that requires ....fuel.

 

[h2o]

i too am all for local produce as for being sanctimonious i only spend £50 odd a week on petrol .im not exactly mr green and i burn wood at home in my stove im just pointing out that if 4x4 users went to a smaller engine then less emmision would be produced irrelavent of milage if you drove smaller your emmisions are smaller .and as for sweating after walking less than a mile u need to improve your cardiovascular fitness.maybe drive to the gym a couple of nights a week .