2-way Radios

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bojit

Native
Aug 7, 2010
1,173
0
56
Edinburgh
As i mentioned before we have 4 mitex radios ,We also have a Standard Horizon HX851E , it's a handheld VHF with GPS and a dsc button which when pushed will link you direct to the coastgaurd (when in range ) and it floats.
I bought it for sea kyaking , canoeing and sailing .

Craig.....................
 

shortymcsteve

Forager
Jan 8, 2011
152
0
Hamilton, Scotland
I feel the information people are sharing is misleading, especially about PMR.

The only license free frequency range in the UK is the 446mhz.
It is referred to as PMR446. 'PMR' stands for 'private mobile radio' and is used by lots of people, mainly shops and security which you need a business license for.

Every frequency companys or the government uses are assigned by OFCOM, its not a case of already laid out frequencies.
There are band plans but each user has their own frequency and tone so no one else is using the same frequency and cannot conflict. Users may be issued with the same freq/tones if they are far enough away. For example shopping center security.


PMR 446 is on a legal requirement of transmitting at 0.5w and no more. Many people say this is no use but i have been using 'cheap' radios and they do the job just fine, i have found them to even outdo professional radios depending on the situation.

Lots of radio users are now looking at China for buying their radios as they are manufacturing lots of new radios for a third of the price of one you would buy in a store here that is probably even as good performance wise.

The Chinese radios can be found online for around £30 per handset delivered to your door. They can be programed to both UHF and VHF depending on which model you buy, or you can buy a dual band version which covers both bands.

UHF covers 403-470MHz so these radios can be programed for 446 which is license free. The only problem is these radios have higher power (up to 5w) but a lot of radio users are running the risk of being caught these days as it seems ofcom do not care.
The radios will have to be programed to cover 446 and i suggest you ONLY use 446. If you TX on any other freq ofcom will come after you and you could end up in court.

The difference between 0.5w and 5w i have found is in built up areas the extra power gives the signal a boost, making it stronger helping it get past buildings.
In a straight line, for example hill to hill 0.5w in some cases has out done 5w.

I am able to talk with some chap about 8miles away from my house to his house, the factor is we both live in raised areas of our towns and the vantage point is the key.
If we both lives in our town centers we would have no chance of talking.

Really it depends on what kind of environment you are looking to use there radios, that way you can understand your needs better.

I suggest the binatone 950 twin pack which can be found in Aldi a lot of the time (with a 3 year Aldi warranty) for £30.
I have the 550's and they are great radios, the 950's just look more professional and maybe built a little more durable.


If you need more advice i suggest looking on this website for help: http://www.transmission1.co.uk/forum/index.php
I believe you can post as a guest and the members are very helpful and are full of knowledge.
Please make sure to post in the 'PMR 446' section.


Hope this helps!
 

IanM

Nomad
Oct 11, 2004
380
0
UK
Sorry shortymcsteve but what you are suggesting is illegal (as you acknowledge) and this site does not allow such shenanigans.
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,131
1
1,879
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
The Chinese radios can be found online for around £30 per handset delivered to your door. They can be programed to both UHF and VHF depending on which model you buy, or you can buy a dual band version which covers both bands.

UHF covers 403-470MHz so these radios can be programed for 446 which is license free. The only problem is these radios have higher power (up to 5w) but a lot of radio users are running the risk of being caught these days as it seems ofcom do not care.
The radios will have to be programed to cover 446 and i suggest you ONLY use 446. If you TX on any other freq ofcom will come after you and you could end up in court.

So, do all of these import radios come as 5W? if they do how come they're allowed in the country as they would be illegal to use. Are other frequencies able to use >.5w? If they're not the import/sale should be controlled.
You need to be careful how you encourage others to act, advising people that using a 5w is ok because they don't really care is not wise and gets flagged as the promotion of something illegal, can you reword it please as it would be a shame to remove the whole post.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Tony, IIRC owning is legal, using is not so import is not a problem (may be wrong). Nothing to stop you going and buying a full short wave radio ham rig, but it would be illegal for you to use un-licensed or outside the legal regulations covering their operation.

Start using the ham bands and you will soon be told to depart by irate licensed amateurs though.
 

bojit

Native
Aug 7, 2010
1,173
0
56
Edinburgh
:)
As i mentioned before we have 4 mitex radios ,We also have a Standard Horizon HX851E , it's a handheld VHF with GPS and a dsc button which when pushed will link you direct to the coastgaurd (when in range ) and it floats.
I bought it for sea kyaking , canoeing and sailing .

Craig.....................

The 4 mitex uhf radios i have and use are 5w , i had to buy a licence for these @ £70 for 5 years .
The handheld vhf radio we have , my wife and i went on a vhf operators course for a licence £120 each .

Doing it right and legal isn't cheap but for me there is no other way ,as i am the stupid git that will get caught out .:)

Craig................
 

rickyamos

Settler
Feb 6, 2010
622
0
Peterborough
Tony, IIRC owning is legal, using is not so import is not a problem (may be wrong). Nothing to stop you going and buying a full short wave radio ham rig, but it would be illegal for you to use un-licensed or outside the legal regulations covering their operation.

Start using the ham bands and you will soon be told to depart by irate licensed amateurs though.

No you are right, hams will not talk to unlicensed users
 

IanM

Nomad
Oct 11, 2004
380
0
UK
Bojit,

The radios you are using and your licence are marine band and only legal to be used at sea. Any use on land will incur the wrath of Ofcom and the other users which you interfere with. I am sure you were told that on your training course but it is not made clear in this thread.

In the UK the only radios you may use unlicensed are the little 0.5W PMR446 walky-talky type which whilst not good, are usually adequate for what they were designed for and CB which is better. There is an unlicensed digital PMR in the offing, dPMR446, but will be expensive but will have encryption possible. There are a number of good Chinese imports flooding the market which may be programmed for a number of uses but they ALL require a licence to operate and most don't meet the regulations for build standards and quality including the dreaded CE marking. They also cannot legally be used for PMR446 as that class of radio must be built as such and may not be a modified radio, such as reprogramming, and can only use 0.5W. Whilst legal to import and own you may not transmit without the licence and only amateurs can use the non CE marked radios (as they can build their own kit no CE marking is required for amateur radios, they in effect 'certify' their own).

These Chinese radios are being used illegally in such numbers that they are causing problems. These problems have been trivial in the past and largely ignored but have now reached such a level that it is rumoured that Ofcom will soon come down on them like a tonne of bricks £2,000- £5,000 fines are on the horizon.

Follow the rules and use the unlicensed stuff or if that does not meet your needs get a ham licence (my local club are running a course soon, three days, £55 all in), which gives you a licence for life and we even have eight year olds pass, I suspect if you can't pass you should not be let out by yourself. If that is against your principles, buy a business licence for some fixed frequencies (available on the CE marked Chinese radios) which I think is £75 for five years or thereabout.

It should be possible for 'Bushcraft UK' as a 'sole trader' to buy such a license (Simple UK Light, daft name) then give paid up members permission as part of their 'business'. It will need some management and controls but could be a significant perceived benefit to members.

Ofcom Guidance
 
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bojit

Native
Aug 7, 2010
1,173
0
56
Edinburgh
Thanks Ian , but the VHF that i have i use only on the water or in the marina and i am licenced to use it .
The 4 mitex general high power walkie-talkies that we bought from maplin in the uk and have a 5 year licence for , we did a lot of homework before buying
and asked advise from the radio supplier at out local marina .
Pretty sure that i am well within the law.

Craig...............................
 

IanM

Nomad
Oct 11, 2004
380
0
UK
Craig, I am sure you are. You would not have spent hours of your time and hundreds of pounds without the commitment to do things right.

Unfortunately there are many people out there reading this who believe that it is possible to ignore the law and do things on the cheap by being 'clever' and thinking they have found a grey area to exploit. One of those incorrect beliefs is that they may buy marine band equipment and use it unlicensed on land as they really are not bothering anybody and I was trying to disabuse them by making the point that marine band may not be used on land which did not come through in your posts.

You are covered at sea and in the marina for boating activities but as soon as you go into town to the supermarket for resupply you may not use the marine radios to call back to the boat. That is the reason you have the PBR VHF license for the Mitex sets I presume, and is exactly what I am recommending readers here to do if they wish to use something better than PMR446 and have no wish to sit the amature exam.

Would it be possible for you to explain here how easy it is to do it right, the necessary steps and the approximate costs that you experienced to set up a useful radio system properly?
 

Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
2,109
10
Perthshire
I have one of these dual band 5 watt Chinese radios:

http://www.wouxun.com/Two-Way-Radio/KG-UVD1P.htm

About £70 new on ebay.

It is capable of transmit and receive on PMR446 frequencies, all VHF Marine frequencies, all of the 2m and 70cm amateur bands and most VHF/UHF business PMR fequencies. They are now CE marked and also FCC approved in the States. They have been tested by the amateur radio magazines and spectral purity is good (ie, they only transmit where they are programmed to).

It also has a torch and an ordinary FM radio built in.

As far as the legalities go, you can legally:

Listen, but not transmit, on VHF Marine. Very useful for weather from the coastguard.

Listen, but not transmit, on PMR 446

Listen and transmit on amateur bands with appropriate licence.


Radio equipment normally has to be type-approved. These Chinese sets are certainly not type approved for PMR 446 (too powerful, non-integral antenna) and I'm fairly certain not for marine use either. I'm not sure about Business PMR. Licensed amateurs are not required to use type-approved equipment on the amateur bands as they are assumed to have the necessary technical skill. So these radios are perfectly legal for the licensed amateur to use.

I use it quite a lot on the amateur bands and for listening to weather when paddling sea lochs. In an emergency it could be used to transmit a Mayday call on marine VHF channel 16, but this is probably not legal. Then again, if you're drowning, the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 might not be your most pressing worry.

So overall, it is a very useful bit of kit outdoors, IF you have an amateur licence. But that is quite easy to get these days.

For most people, the PMR 446 set is the best bet: they are very cheap, can be used throughout the EU, no licence needed and work well enough. The range will only be a mile or two at best, though if you're both on a mountain top 20-30 miles is entirely feasible. It's topography rather than power which is the main limitation.

A 5 watt set like mine on the amateur bands will give you a bit further, maybe 3-5 miles. But you can usually call through a repeater (an unmanned relay station on a hill - there is a network throughout the UK) and get a range of up to 50 miles or so, sometimes further. You can also use a more efficient antenna on a fishing pole and get 20-50 miles without using the repeater. Or with a beam antenna on a hill, a hundred miles is not impossible.
 
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rickyamos

Settler
Feb 6, 2010
622
0
Peterborough
Its not strictly true that you can listen to any transmission, Ofcom state a licence is not required for a radio receiver as long as it is not capable of transmission, the exception to this is that it is an offence to listen to unlicensed broadcasters (pirates) without a licence, and a licence will not be issued for this purpose, all though its not ilegal to own such equipment, it is only legal to listen to transmission for GENERAL RECEPTION. These include Amateur radio, CB and licensed broadcasts i.e. radio 1, and at sea weather and navigational information. The Ofcom rules state that "It is an offence to listen to any other services unless you are authorised by the Secretary of State to do so" As you can see if you buy one of these radios off ebay or where ever without a licence you are committing an offence, so I would suggest that you just go out and sit the amateur foundation licence and put good use to the £100 you just spent on a dual band VHF/UHF radio.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Lot's of good info even if some of it is a bit confusing. Someone mentioned that the import 5w radios were being used illegaly as the authorities seemed not to care. I don't think he was suggesting that any of us should try it. It sounded more to me as if he were complaining that enough wasn't being done to stop it. I know that type use is part of what all but destroyed CB here. Until the 70s Cb required a license of it's own here; a cheap, license with no exam. Unfortunately the sudden boom in popularity made enforcement impossible and the license requirement was dropped. As a consequence we also had the allowable power for CB dropped from 20w to 5w although on the plus side another 13 channels were added. The biggest disadvantage though is that CB here is so unregulated that the users aren't exactly the sorts I want to talk to for recreation and they're also not the sorts I really want to depend on in an emergency.

The 2 unlicensed radio systems now sound very much like your PMR446. They are GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) and FMRS (Family Mobile Radio Service) and they are limited in power also but as there, that's not a problem for what they are meant for. Still I think it's time for me to move on to Ham. Just seems more fun in the long run.

A few of you have mentioned radio use while abroad so I want to pose another question: What can anyone tell me about reciprocity? Which countries recognize licenses issued by other countries? I mean in the sense that you were vacationing abroad, not in the sense of a ham making an international contact. It would seem a no-brainer that the EU would to some extent but I really don't know so please lets continue this thread.
 
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johnboy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 2, 2003
2,258
5
Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
A few of you have mentioned radio use while abroad so I want to pose another question: What can anyone tell me about reciprocity? Which countries recognize licenses issued by other countries? I mean in the sense that you were vacationing abroad, not in the sense of a ham making an international contact. It would seem a no-brainer that the EU would to some extent but I really don't know so please lets continue this thread.

Hi,

I hold my 'Ham' Licence or ticket here in NZ. As I understand it If I wanted to operate as a Ham in say the UK or the US I'd need to apply to the relavent organization ARRL in the US and RSGB in the UK and get issued a reciprocal licence and a Callsign. I'd then be able to operate within the band and TX power restrictions of the country I was in.

I think its pretty similar for other countries. I'm sure someone will be along who can quote the relavent bit of ITU legislation..

I found getting Licenced was easy and straightforward and has opened up a huge world of interesting stuff.

73

John
 

Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
2,109
10
Perthshire
Reciprocal licencing for amateur radio is fairly straightforward in the free world. The UK full amateur licence carries 'CEPT privileges' - so you can operate amateur radio equipment when holidaying in the EU and some nearby countries like Turkey that have signed up to it.

I found this very useful on my Arctic Circle trip, and got useful advice from local Finnish hams with my dual band handheld.

The American FCC have an agreement with the CEPT countries. If you have a US licence , you can operate in CEPT countries very easily. You just need your ham licence, passport and a printout of the relevant FCC notice. In fact I have often worked Americans holidaying in the UK.

Similarly, my UK licence allows me to operate in the US and Canada. I am, however, bound to the UK power restrictions (400 watts, as opposed to the 1.5 kW that an American ham can use at home.)
 

shortymcsteve

Forager
Jan 8, 2011
152
0
Hamilton, Scotland
So, do all of these import radios come as 5W? if they do how come they're allowed in the country as they would be illegal to use. Are other frequencies able to use >.5w? If they're not the import/sale should be controlled.
You need to be careful how you encourage others to act, advising people that using a 5w is ok because they don't really care is not wise and gets flagged as the promotion of something illegal, can you reword it please as it would be a shame to remove the whole post.

Sorry, i was not trying to suggest illegal activity but only pointing out that most users do it regardless and ofcom do not seem to care because this is a free service and really it causes no trouble other than further range. If the uses was running more than 5w the TX would probably rip right through all the channels and then ofcom would not be happy.

Most (but not all) can be set to different power outputs depending on what you need. If you can reach someone using 0.5w then its best to set your radio to this as is saved battery power.

As i say these radios can be programmed to the 446mhz but also programed to anything on UHF. Only on 446 the power output is limited to 0.5w, everything else is generally 4-5w.
For example i can hear a shopping center security and all the shops talk to each other about 8 miles away loud and clear and it is surrounded by buildings but the signal can still reach me no problem.

The Chinese radios are not illegal, in fact you will pretty much find 5w 'professional' radios in maplin for £100 which is the exact same job.
People just chose to run them on 446 as this is the only license free area you can operate, otherwise you have to buy a license and operate on the HAM bands to use equipment with far more power and use big antennas.

Another thing to note is that a lot of these radios are used by people for baby monitors which is very frustrating as there is only 8 main channels.
Also manufacturers of proper monitors like to use the license free 446 channels which is always very annoying to people who wish to use the channels as they should be used.
I think if anything, this is more of a misuse than more power but again ofcom will not get involved with such problems.


Personally i do not see an issue with using more power if it is needed to communicate in situations where 0.5w is no use in the outdoors due to heavy wooded areas.
If you are using radios in these kind of areas you are not going to disrupt anyone.
The only issue is that its labeled as 'against the rules'.
In a built up area you may bother some people with the higher power so it would be smart to the use 0.5w on your radio.

There is lots of talk about what is CE marked and what is not, the fact is they all do the same job and these Chinese company's are putting out radios that do a great job for £30 instead of £100+ and can be used legally too.

Also like Doc says on Ham bands there are repeaters and also internet gateways, people have done the same now with CB networks and further more 446 (which is illegal).
A chap not far from my house set up an internet gateway on 446 and one day i heard it sending out an automated voice alerting people it was there so i decided to give it a shot which proved very interesting. I managed to talk with lots of people all over the world as it links over the internet.
It also improved coverage in the local area, someone 12 miles away on a basic 446 0.5w was calling in and could hear us no problem talking back (all of us using 0.5w).
It made 446 very interesting to use because otherwise it had been very boring to use so i think it was nice to try it out, unfortunately (and understandably) this is illegal but i just wanted to point out something else about what goes on with this license free network.

I see santaman2000 talking about GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) and FMRS (Family Mobile Radio Service) used in the US, i bet lots of people have bought these 'walky talkys' on holiday, especailly when visiting the Disney parks and then taken them home and not realized they are completely illegal here due to emergency services (fire brigades) using some of the same freq they run on which causes them a lot of problems in emergency's (or used to... now they are on the same secure network as police for the most part. They are still illegal as they are still using the freq's from time to time as backups)

Lots of people on here go into the outdoors with huge knifes and blades, way over the legal limit but see it as not an issue.
I see it as the same kind of situation here.


In fact i was thinking about buying one of these dual band Chinese radios so i can program in emergency frequencies such as the coast guard, mountain rescue, search and rescue, etc.
It is against the rules to TX on these frequencies but i would only use them in sure a drastic emergency where there is no other way to get help if something has to go wrong.
I have read of situations where people have done this and it was accepted as okay as it was a real situation.
Unfortunately the coastguard distress channel is prone to many hoax callers which can result in a prison sentence (quite rightfully too!)


Again i am not trying to promote illegal use here, i am just pointing out what really goes on with most radio users out there.
If you want to stick to 110% to UK radio requirements/guidelines then i suggest the binatone 950's as good radios with better distance than most.
Most radios that are found today in high street shops are really no use more than 1 mile at best unfortunately.
 
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johnboy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 2, 2003
2,258
5
Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
Mate,

You obviously have an interest why not just sit the Amateur Licence which is reasonably straightforward. Then you can RX and TX legally within the defined bands with a Chinese Hand Held till your heart is content. Having one for RX only is like sucking a sweet with the wrapper on, frustrating and a bit pointless.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Mate,

You obviously have an interest why not just sit the Amateur Licence which is reasonably straightforward. Then you can RX and TX legally within the defined bands with a Chinese Hand Held till your heart is content. Having one for RX only is like sucking a sweet with the wrapper on, frustrating and a bit pointless.

+1. It's so obvious that your interest goes well beyond a practical need for distress calls. Take the exams and have fun at it! I'm sure you'll find it addicting.
 

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