2-way Radios

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
How many of you use 2-way radios? Either as an adjunct to your recreational bushcrafting or as part of a search and rescue or similar outdoor pursuit. I am also interested in what are the legal requirements for 2-way radio operation in the UK? Do the UK Scouts have a merit badge (or its UK award equivalent) for 2-way radio? I know it seems a little off the bushcraft theme but I really want to know this in relation to bushcraft activities such as Scouts, Search and Rescue and communication in the bush, etc.
 

Loenja

Settler
Apr 27, 2008
718
1
forest row
afak you need a licens for vhf radios but not the cheapo 2 "walkie talkies" and such so i thoink you ok unless you use a marine radio
 

nigeltm

Full Member
Aug 8, 2008
484
16
54
south Wales
In the UK there are 2 main types of radio; licensed and unlicensed. Basically the frequencies are split by the government to a range which requires permission to use (licensed) and a much smaller range which does not (unlicensed).

IIRC the radios using the unlicensed range are typically referred to as PMR. These can be bought over the counter at Argos, Maplin and the like. The range and quality of the signal vary from product. As usual the mare you pay the better the quality.

The licensed range is used by civilian groups such as Mountain Rescue, Cave Rescue, taxi drivers, radio hams and the like. The government place conditions on the use of the frequency. Such as radio ham exams. I'm a control radio operator in Mountain Rescue and we have restrictions on use such as no swearing, no names (callsigns only) and no mobile phone numbers. The frequencies are monitored and if we break the rules we run the risk of losing our access.

I'm pretty certain I've missed some details but this is the general gist.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
The two main types are as said the PMR/CB type and the licensed radio hams. Hand held are not great in range, the ham rigs are sometimes better and can be helped with the use of ham radio repeater stations dotted around the country.

Mobile phone (cell phone) coverage in the UK is far better than the USA I'm told so the need for hand held rigs has diminished greatly, chance of rescue from using a mobile is far higher than relying om a PMR or ham radio here. If in trouble dial 999 (911) and ask for help really plus your cell phone is triangulated easily these days and automatically IIRC.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
In the UK there are 2 main types of radio; licensed and unlicensed. Basically the frequencies are split by the government to a range which requires permission to use (licensed) and a much smaller range which does not (unlicensed).

IIRC the radios using the unlicensed range are typically referred to as PMR. These can be bought over the counter at Argos, Maplin and the like. The range and quality of the signal vary from product. As usual the mare you pay the better the quality.

The licensed range is used by civilian groups such as Mountain Rescue, Cave Rescue, taxi drivers, radio hams and the like. The government place conditions on the use of the frequency. Such as radio ham exams. I'm a control radio operator in Mountain Rescue and we have restrictions on use such as no swearing, no names (callsigns only) and no mobile phone numbers. The frequencies are monitored and if we break the rules we run the risk of losing our access.

I'm pretty certain I've missed some details but this is the general gist.

Exactly what I'm looking for! Particularly the bits relating to bushy stuff. Sounds similar to our regulations. I'd especially like anything regarding the Ham operators (I mean how often do bushcrafter and ham type people overlap?) Same thing for non-licensed types. Do any of you try to combine your interests? Here the government considers licensed hams as an auxiliary that can supplement the official communications in an emergency such as hurricanes, power outages, etc. Is it similar there? In Mountain Rescue, do your volunteers get much training and use with radios? I'm thinking of getting into Ham Radio and will probably try to combine it with my other hobbies as much as possible. How expensive is it there? Basic Ham radios here start fairly cheaply; about $100 at the low end for a 2 meter hand-held with 5 watt output but go up from there into the 1000s. I'm not sure on the cost of the licensing but I believe it's the not especially expensive, rather the study time is more the deterent. Again I'm approaching this with an old Boy Scout's mentality.
 
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rickyamos

Settler
Feb 6, 2010
622
0
Peterborough
Well if you need a radio then you could get something from Argos etc, but there are very under powered radios RF wise, oh and you want get any user service on them. Transmit power is about 500mW add the small rubber duck style antenna then you are not going to get out far, 5 Km at best. At UHF signals are very line of sight. If you are interested then I would just sit an Amature radio exam, there is only 25 questions and 2 practical exercises, just basically showing you can use a radio and set one up. The other exercise is a morse practical. Don't worry it’s not a pass or fail morse test, just an exercise to show you what its all about. You get a crib sheet and are just sent and receive a quick message. The morse requirement was taken out of the licensing condition in 2003. Cost is about £27 but that’s it the licence is then for life, no annual fee. Please see the link for more info:-

http://www.rsgb.org/newcomers/

Just take a look around the website and find a radio club in your area; you will be glad you did. Don’t worry about the exam as it is multiple choice and is very basic, as it is aimed at all ages so even 8 year old kids have passed.
What you get in return is a foundation licence and a call sign, this get you 10 Watts power limit, but if you are only going to use a hand held radio then that’s fine as they only transmit a maximum of 5 Watts. You do a little you get a little, if you pass and like the hobby you can then go on to the intermediate licence and finally onto the Full licence. They do get progressively harder in fact the full licence I found very hard.

Back to the matter in hand, I see where this 2 way radio thing is heading. You want it as a safety aid while out and about, well that is good as a VHF/UHF radio can be picked up new for about £100, but you can find second hand radios for less. Chuck in the fact that you have a lot of repeaters across the UK you can be heard over a wide area. Say on average about a 20 square mile average, sometimes more, hand held to hand held much less. (Repeaters are a bit like your mobile phone masts) you may not hear any activity but believe me there are always people listening on the repeaters, put out an emergency call and you will get a reply.

http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-repeater/repeaters.php

Above explains what repeaters are.

Anyway I hope I’ve given some food for thought. If you have any more questions then please ask and I will do my best to answer them. Hope to hear you on the air soon.

Thanks

Rick

http://www.qrz.com/callsign/m0zav

73 DE M0ZAV
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
The two main types are as said the PMR/CB type and the licensed radio hams. Hand held are not great in range, the ham rigs are sometimes better and can be helped with the use of ham radio repeater stations dotted around the country.

Mobile phone (cell phone) coverage in the UK is far better than the USA I'm told so the need for hand held rigs has diminished greatly, chance of rescue from using a mobile is far higher than relying om a PMR or ham radio here. If in trouble dial 999 (911) and ask for help really plus your cell phone is triangulated easily these days and automatically IIRC.

I'm sure you're quite right about the cell coverage. Here we have large areas of wilderness where cell towers aren't allowed (sometimes the nearest tower is over 100 miles away) I wasn't neccessarily talking about using one to call for help though. I meant more as a way to communicate with fellow outdoorsmen in a recreational setting. In short, isn't radio just more fun than a cell phone? Does anybody do this in an outdoor context? with regards to the rescue services, I meant how they communicate with each other.
 

nigeltm

Full Member
Aug 8, 2008
484
16
54
south Wales
In Mountain Rescue (at least in our team) every member has radio training as part of the basic training. This ranges from classroom based instruction to live exercises on the hill. This covers; procedures, regulations, care of the handsets, repeater stations (fixed antennas which broadcast signals to extending range), impacts of weather an terrain on transmission range and signal quality. All in all an experienced radio operator will have used the kit for many hours and will be able to communicate efficiently, clearly and quickly.

The effective range of the licensed handheld VHF radios is around 2 or 3 miles depending on manufacturer. This is around the same as the unlicensed PMR radios.

As far as bushcraft goes the PMR kit can be useful but I don't know anyone who uses it. To be honest I've used it more for motorbike to motorbike comms on rideouts :)
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Well if you need a radio then you could get something from Argos etc, but there are very under powered radios RF wise, oh and you want get any user service on them. Transmit power is about 500mW add the small rubber duck style antenna then you are not going to get out far, 5 Km at best. At UHF signals are very line of sight. If you are interested then I would just sit an Amature radio exam, there is only 25 questions and 2 practical exercises, just basically showing you can use a radio and set one up. The other exercise is a morse practical. Don't worry it’s not a pass or fail morse test, just an exercise to show you what its all about. You get a crib sheet and are just sent and receive a quick message. The morse requirement was taken out of the licensing condition in 2003. Cost is about £27 but that’s it the licence is then for life, no annual fee. Please see the link for more info:-

http://www.rsgb.org/newcomers/

Just take a look around the website and find a radio club in your area; you will be glad you did. Don’t worry about the exam as it is multiple choice and is very basic, as it is aimed at all ages so even 8 year old kids have passed.
What you get in return is a foundation licence and a call sign, this get you 10 Watts power limit, but if you are only going to use a hand held radio then that’s fine as they only transmit a maximum of 5 Watts. You do a little you get a little, if you pass and like the hobby you can then go on to the intermediate licence and finally onto the Full licence. They do get progressively harder in fact the full licence I found very hard.

Back to the matter in hand, I see where this 2 way radio thing is heading. You want it as a safety aid while out and about, well that is good as a VHF/UHF radio can be picked up new for about £100, but you can find second hand radios for less. Chuck in the fact that you have a lot of repeaters across the UK you can be heard over a wide area. Say on average about a 20 square mile average, sometimes more, hand held to hand held much less. (Repeaters are a bit like your mobile phone masts) you may not hear any activity but believe me there are always people listening on the repeaters, put out an emergency call and you will get a reply.

http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-repeater/repeaters.php

Above explains what repeaters are.

Anyway I hope I’ve given some food for thought. If you have any more questions then please ask and I will do my best to answer them. Hope to hear you on the air soon.

Thanks

Rick

http://www.qrz.com/callsign/m0zav

73 DE M0ZAV

Very good info. Thanks a load. If I get into it I'll most definitely find a club. It was one of my aspirations as a kid but kinda got swept into the background. Now I have more time and a friend in Missouri is into it so I want to pursue it more now. I've used radios at work for so long I don't really know how to live without them. I was a flightline mechanic in the Air Force and then a cop as a civilian. Also when I was sport flying I obviously had to use one. CBs just don't do it for me anymore. And yeah, safety is always a concern.
 
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nigeltm

Full Member
Aug 8, 2008
484
16
54
south Wales
... with regards to the rescue services, I meant how they communicate with each other.
Simple answer? Badly :)

The official emergency services use a system called "Airwaves". This is what most of the public think are the mobile phones attached to a copper's vest. In fact it is based on the mobile phone system. It is a digital system which uses the commercial cell towers. It gives access to a form of conference call system where you use a group channel to make general broadcasts. Then you have a point-to-point option which allows you to make a direct call to another Airwaves handset. You can also direct dial a landline or other mobile number as it routes the call through the Police switchboard.

The Mountain Rescue teams have access to Airwaves to allow comms with other users. Access is VERY tightly controlled. There are very strict conditions on use (even Police officers cannot take them home) and we are always at risk of having them taken off us. The MR teams will have a number of sets for search managers and vehicles.

Unfortunately as they're based on cell towers Airwaves performance is pretty poor when you get into the rural/mountainous areas!

In addition to this the helicopters (air ambulance, police and RAF) have VHF sets. In theory this means we can talk directly to the pilots. Unfortunately not all of the pilots know this! We did a test with one Police chopper a few months ago and I had a chat with the crew as they headed off after an exercise. Pity we'll be losing that particular chopper in the upcoming cuts :-(
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Simple answer? Badly :)

The official emergency services use a system called "Airwaves". This is what most of the public think are the mobile phones attached to a copper's vest. In fact it is based on the mobile phone system. It is a digital system which uses the commercial cell towers. It gives access to a form of conference call system where you use a group channel to make general broadcasts. Then you have a point-to-point option which allows you to make a direct call to another Airwaves handset. You can also direct dial a landline or other mobile number as it routes the call through the Police switchboard.

The Mountain Rescue teams have access to Airwaves to allow comms with other users. Access is VERY tightly controlled. There are very strict conditions on use (even Police officers cannot take them home) and we are always at risk of having them taken off us. The MR teams will have a number of sets for search managers and vehicles.

Unfortunately as they're based on cell towers Airwaves performance is pretty poor when you get into the rural/mountainous areas!

In addition to this the helicopters (air ambulance, police and RAF) have VHF sets. In theory this means we can talk directly to the pilots. Unfortunately not all of the pilots know this! We did a test with one Police chopper a few months ago and I had a chat with the crew as they headed off after an exercise. Pity we'll be losing that particular chopper in the upcoming cuts :-(

One of the electricity companies over here (Gulf Power) developed a similar system for employee use a while back. It featured a radio system utilizing commercial TV and Radio repeaters for company radio communication (private radio to radio or conference mode) while piggybacking onto those repeaters for cell phone access. It proved so popular that they offered it to the general public for a service fee like cell phones (on a seperate frequencies range from company and public service communications obviously). Yeah, we're having a lot of cuts also.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Hi Santaman

I did not know you were one of the brothers from accross the pond so you should start at the ollowing site:-

http://www.arrl.org/licensing-education-training

Oh and by the way I did 15 years in the RAF as an armourer, loved every minute

Cheers

Rick

LOL. Sometimes it's hard to think like a civilian anymore. P.S. Thanks for this link AND the one to the UK site. I'm really almost as interested in learning the similarities and differences of how we do things as I am in getting into radio. Hopefully I'll be able to contact you on the air at some point!
 
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jackcbr

Native
Sep 25, 2008
1,561
0
50
Gatwick, UK
www.pickleimages.co.uk
I do use 2 way radios when I'm off skiing with friends. as they are all far better than me, they tend to zoom off on much more adventurous runs than I can cope with, so often spend time skiing on my own. It does make it easier to catch up with them for lunch as we can talk about where to meet and how long we are going to be.

I did have an interesting situation a few years ago whilst skiing where the walkie talkies came into there own. We'd been off skiing as a group, but the weather was looking like it was going to change for the worse. I decided that I would head back asap, but they were going to have lunch and then ski a bit more. Well as it turned out I got stuck on the wrong side of our home mountain when they closed all the blue runs back to our resort. The only thing left to do was take a black down to another valley or walk over the top to the cable car back down. Well, the rest of the group managed to ski back into the resort, only to find my shoes in the ski locker rather than my skis. Fortunately they only had to go back up in the cable car and call me up and they new I was safe and not far from getting back. Also they could advise the best route back and hold the cable car from closing.

Without them, they would have called the emergency services and I think my other half would have had a breakdown. As it was, I was sat at a cafe having a drink after climbing what seemed like Everest (more like a mole hill, but in ski boots a bit of a hike). Now, even though mobile phones are easy and have good coverage, I still take the WT, they cost nothing to run and with quite a few people using them, I often cross channels with people and strike up some friendly banter, but more importantly extra people to call on if things go wrong.
 

bojit

Native
Aug 7, 2010
1,173
0
56
Edinburgh
I was away at the weekend with the kids up at Glen Etive , when they went to bed in the van i was sitting with the guys round the fire .
I had a radio in my pocket so the kids could talk to me whenever they wanted , when i went of to bed in the tent my girls knew if they
woke in the night i was on the other end of the radio .


Craig......................
 
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forestwalker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
In Sweden they are often used when hunting as a team effort (e.g. moose). Decent range, decent battery life, possible to hook up to your defenders, the best ones these days are waterproof, for various definitions of waterproof.
 

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