Wild camping dartmoor threatened again

[PaulSanderson]

Coming from a farming family, I see this both way. The amount of damage, cost, and ultimatly liability that many landowners face due to incidents caused by members of the public (some with good intention, others with not), puts huge strain on already struggling farms. This being said, access clearly is an issue, and im sure we can all sing about the benefits of access to green spaces and fresh air.

Sadly it only takes a handful of muppets to ruin it for the vast majority, and herein lies the problem. Its easier for the landowners to simply say "no". I know of a local neighbouring farmer who has even had the police at his door because some divvy managed to nearly slice his femoral artery using an axe - the LO didnt even know someone was trespassing in his woods.

I dont have the answer, and I guess places like Dartmoor that cover huge areas are different to small family ran farms that are already struggling, however, as has been mentioned in this thread, legally, there is a precedent that can be enshrined in case law here, and I fear that leaves the small farmer at a a huge disadvantage.

I read a thread here that a LO asked for an MOU from someone wanting to camp in their woods. I personally think this is great idea, and may leave the LO feeling reassured that if someone causes themselves a mischief they are solely responsible. Or if any criminal damage occurs they know who to look for recompense. Perhaps in this manner, notwithstanding the admin burden, it may open the way for people to be able to actually spend time and enjoy the outdoors as opposed to "stealth" camp.

Slightly off track from the OPs original post, so i apologise, but everytime i see replies saying "access for all" etc, i feel i need to state in some cases this isnt necessarily a good thing for "all", less so the custodians of the land that are trying to work sympathetically with it.

 

[Falstaff]

Is this the sort of standard simple format that this forum could come up with for general use and distribution?
How would one find out who owns or manages what, to ask for permission?

 

[Pattree]

A form indemnifying the land owner against liability for injuries or loss to the camper might be possible but it would need a legal eye as we might be signing away some basic rights.

A document underwriting the cost of any damage caused to the land or property might require quite a high level of public liability insurance on the part of the camper.
A stainless steel item left in a crop might not be recognised by a combine harvester’s metal detection system. You don’t get many of those at the Pound Shop!

 

[Glow_worm]

A stainless steel item left in a crop might not be recognised by a combine harvester’s metal detection system. You don’t get many of those at the Pound Shop!

I don't think there's much of a risk there. I assume camping would be on meadow/pasture, woodland and odd corners, not on arable.

As an aside, only a tiny percentage of combines in the UK have metal detectors. I'd be more worried about a tactical ultralight paracord bracelet choking a cow.

 

[Pattree]

You could start by simply Googling to find ownership.

Q. Who owns which parts of The Wrekin.

A. The Wrekin is jointly owned by the Raby Estate and a neighboring estate, with the Raby Estate owning the southern part of the hill. The northern end of the hill is owned by the Orelton estate

You could do much better than this if you gave it a bit of time - this is AI generated, something that is difficult to avoid and not particularly welcome.

 

[Chris]

If you go on the land registry website you can order the deed and title to any land in the UK for about £3, which will tell you who owns it and their correspondence address.

 

[Falstaff]

I don't think there's much of a risk there. I assume camping would be on meadow/pasture, woodland and odd corners, not on arable.

As an aside, only a tiny percentage of combines in the UK have metal detectors. I'd be more worried about a tactical ultralight paracord bracelet choking a cow.

Actually there is, much of meadow/pasture lands are farmed for hay and something like that could really damage the grasscutters. Sheep and cows seem to try to eat all sorts of junk. At bike rallies we have to do post-event sweep searches, like we're looking for crime evidence. Trying to pay attention with a hangover/lack of sleep is "challenging" but it's amazing what we find.

 

[Falstaff]

A form indemnifying the land owner against liability for injuries or loss to the camper might be possible but it would need a legal eye as we might be signing away some basic rights.

A document underwriting the cost of any damage caused to the land or property might require quite a high level of public liability insurance on the part of the camper.
A stainless steel item left in a crop might not be recognised by a combine harvester’s metal detection system. You don’t get many of those at the Pound Shop!

Agreed,
We would certainly be signing away some rights, it's those risks that the owner is concerned about, e.g. falling trees, hidden hazards etc. besides damage. That is in essence the deal we are offering.
Personal injury risks will have to be covered by your own policy if you want one. The insurance companies might be reluctant, since they heavily rely upon suing the other party, known as "subrogation rights" and our indemnity agreement would block that.

However, most folks house insurance includes for third party liability (i.e. the land owner) when they are out and about, and for quite high amounts.
If you enquire/check as you are a keen walker, "just to be sure" if it covers you on country walks and camping and they say yes, you're covered. - Alternatively they might want to up the premium a bit but I doubt it would be much.

 

[Glow_worm]

Actually there is, much of meadow/pasture lands are farmed for hay and something like that could really damage the grasscutters.

They are pretty tough, I've spend a lot of time declogging them. Given the amount of rubbish mowers pick up at the best of times (barbed wire, clothing, plastic, miles of baler twine- and all manner of things blow onto even the best kept fields!) some camping debris really isn't going to make a difference. Forage harvesters are a bit fussier though in silage regions.

A lone wild camper is a safer bet in terms of tidying up than a group, or a festival crowd...

 

[nigelp]

The greatest misconception with regard to CROW land/right to roam areas is that it should or could be used for wild camping or other activities. The legislation is very limited in scope and only allows the following: What people can do on your land - People can normally access your open access land on foot. They can: walk, sightsee, bird-watch, climb and run

The list of things people cannot do is very long!

I would like to see increased access to the countryside by extending the right to roam to field margins etc and increased access for horses and bikes on rights of way that are suitable for them. This also means gates instead of stiles which increases access for those with less mobility.

I don't want to see it allow wild camping especially in lowland England. I wild camp and find that if you are discrete and mindful no one is too bothered. If it was 'allowed' in any form it would be ruined by thoughtless actions. Most lowland CRoW areas are uncultivated and managed for wildlife and rarer species absent due to intensive agriculture and grazing.

I would like the allowed activities to include photography and other 'quiet' pursuits and better access to 'CRoW' islands.

As someone whom is interested in nature and conservation I don't like this presumption that open access open land and woodland is fair game for wild camping, bushcraft and the like. Taking knives and axes to what is still a public place and lighting fires will destroy any chances of increased access.

Controversial but maybe the focus on bushcraft should come away from knives and the need to light a fire. Be more about visiting the outdoors with a suite of skills and knowledge that have less impact.

 

[slowworm]

I would like to see increased access to the countryside by extending the right to roam to field margins etc and increased access for horses and bikes on rights of way that are suitable for them. This also means gates instead of stiles which increases access for those with less mobility.

I it shouldn't just be a one way street, if land owners are to be encouraged to allow more public access then some other laws will need to be strengthened. For example, if you want gates instead of stiles then landowners need help dealing with clearing fly-tipping, illegal camping etc.

Rather than individuals having to take out insurance, or land owners having to foot the bill for damage or claims I think it should be covered by the government even if it will be costly.

I also worry greatly about wildlife. Whilst I know many here would be respectful I have little faith in the general public. Around here for example there's an ever decreasing number of places for wildlife (pastures being ploughed and sown with monoculture grass or grain, no field margins etc) and opening up the small remains for people to trample over everything and let their dogs run free isn't great for many creatures.

 

[Ozmundo]

I passed the fire service putting out some flying tipping last week. Not sure if it was deliberately ignited or not.

My faith in the my fellow man is sometimes tested.

 

[nigelp]

For example, if you want gates instead of stiles then landowners need help dealing with clearing fly-tipping, illegal camping etc.

They only need to be pedestrian/horse gates. The same as on existing bridleways.

 

[slowworm]

They only need to be pedestrian/horse gates. The same as on existing bridleways.

Doesn't solve all the problems, I've seen a bath and the associated remains of an old bathroom stuffed in the entrance of a narrow permissive path. There's also problems with poaching, off road bikes, theft etc, etc which easier access can increase.

 

[nigelp]

Doesn't solve all the problems, I've seen a bath and the associated remains of an old bathroom stuffed in the entrance of a narrow permissive path. There's also problems with poaching, off road bikes, theft etc, etc which easier access can increase.

Those are rural crimes and are a policing issue. A gateway used for a farmer to access his field (of which there are 1000’s) and not associated with access can be used in your scenario.

 

[Chris]

We seem to love banning things for everyone based on the actions of a minority in this country. How about we police the bad behaviour instead?

 

[nigelp]

We seem to love banning things for everyone based on the actions of a minority in this country. How about we police the bad behaviour instead?

Quite. Responsible access to the countryside could be a very positive thing, more eyes on the ground so to speak and folk might feel more of a connection to the rural landscape. It certainly isn’t walkers, cyclist and horse riders that are committing crimes!

 

[Falstaff]

Those are rural crimes and are a policing issue. A gateway used for a farmer to access his field (of which there are 1000’s) and not associated with access can be used in your scenario.

The Police simply do not have the resources to respond to rural crimes, even when in my area they designated a Rural Crime Squad due to the level of lawlessness. (Where they dragged a young copper down the road to his death..)
As a result, nearly all the gates have been blocked by the farmers, as far as possible all equipment is put into secure-ish storage but still it goes on, seige conditions. (e.g. how the incident that led to his death started.)

To make it worse SUSTRANS are pushing thru' construction of cycle paths in the countryside between towns right across the UK. Creating a muggers paradise and escape route for illegal electric bikes/crime etc. No additional funding or resources for either any Council or Police, to maintain or police them.

 

[nigelp]

I’m afraid I don’t believe for one minute that increased access to rural areas for foot and cycles will increase the crime rate as you imagine it. Farm machinery theft is organised by organised criminal gangs and 10 minutes out of town no one will see any muggers!

 

[slowworm]

Those are rural crimes and are a policing issue. A gateway used for a farmer to access his field (of which there are 1000’s) and not associated with access can be used in your scenario.

Some are civil, such clearing fly tipped waste. But as has been pointed out and many land owners will tell you rural crime is not very well policed. If you genuinely think there will be no increase in crime then there's nothing to loose in supporting extra funding if crime does increase.

I would also disagree strongly with the idea problems are only caused by a tiny minority. Take dog fouling as an example, not illegal in the countryside I think but I wouldn't say it's responsible behaviour. When we used to have a dog there were many places we stopped going because the majority of people would not clear up after their dog.

Going back to fly tipping, when I've had to sort out a problem it became very apparent that most people I talked to couldn't see much of a problem as it was the countryside. We were blamed because we did not fence off the land and have a "Private Land" sign up, and as daft as it sounds I am not making it up.

The land in question we have deliberately left a gappy hedge as our woodland connects to another area of woodland over the road and there's a large amount of wildlife that moves between to two. We have been advised to fence it off on more than one occasion to prevent access.