"Elvenising" my equipment.

[Tadpole]

I think that tadpole is, for some reason, taking a defensive stand here, and I can not understand why? I'm sure you are happy when camping, and dry and fed and warm and all that, but why are you doing it? What can you possibly learn sitting in a tent? I thought this forum was about primitive skill?

Just to put the record straight, I feel that sitting in a tent, something I am happy to do when I am camping with my with my family is as valid a learning experience as wild camping with a couple of Dutch blankets, a knife, a tarp and a tin (SS) pot, which I do when I am on my own. Neither is more authentic then the other. Why?, I have the option to end my ‘learning experience’ whenever I chose.
@Dogwood My ancestors came across to England long long ago, and within 800 years owned about 33,000 hectares, three forests, a couple of cities, a few towns and controlled most of Lancashire, along with Buckinghamshire and Yorkshire, in their time they have sent Owen Glendower, packing with a bloody nose, fought alongside Henry V at Agincourt. Does that make me any more an authority, on well, anything. My family have also been dirt poor, and were shipped both to the colonies of the new world and to Australia.
I studied history, both of king and queens, and the poor of the industrial revolution and it has left me in no doubt that apart from a few people who were driven, few people wanted to suffer the privations of life you seem to worship, they may have found it necessary, or just accepted it as part of their lot, but few, if any, would choose to live full time the life you appear to seek.
Viking like the druids is a re-visionist word, coming back into use mid 18th century. It’s root is the Old Norse word vikingr, "person who came from the fjords” from the old English word ‘wizin’ or temporary camp. The person who came a raiding were called Deniscan “the Danes”

 

[spamel]

Bloomin' heck, you lot would argue the colour of an orange! A guy wants to spend a few nights in the woods with traditional gear, he's asked for help and got very little from what I can see. All he has got is a bunch of mumbo jumbo not on topic at all and people running him down for his decisions. Going into the woods for a weekend with a tin pot, blankets and a knife isn't a way of life, it's a way to spend your free time. This is what the guy wants to do and he is asking those of us who may have some experience in doing this hobby, in that manner, for some advice. I don't recall him asking for a history lesson or Encyclopaedic definitions of words!

How about dropping the posturing, general knowledge and Google-fu and get to answering the poor blokes initial questions before he dies of boredom!

 

[sandbender]

"...Google-fu..."

.

 

[jojo]

"Elvenising" my equipment.
Hi. OK bit of a philosophical view on kit here, might get lenghty...
I am quickly getting sick of going out in the woods with my Sabre 75 (with side pockets) filled to bursting with "essential" gear. Its awkward, too heavy too bulky, just too much!! If anyone has watched half as many films as I have you would have seen the epitomy of woodsman, the Elves. (Hear me out!) Theyre portrayed as forest dwellers who travel light with minimal gear and craft items of very light construction. And I came across the idea that I would attempt to Elvenise my equipment. I.e. Miminise what I really need and to find lighter (and preferably natural materials and neutral coloured) replacements. I have swapped over from tent to hammock, or bivvi, and I'm currently sourcing materials for a custom made ultralight hammock. I have found a lovely titanium pot to replace my heavy zebra billy, titanium spork instead of steel KFS etc etc
I have read the threads about sleeping bag vs blankets and the discussions usually address warmth to weight ratio, but i have not read much about the bulkiness. I usually put my bag in my rucksack then wonder where all my 75 litres went! I am trying to work out what equipment I'd need to sleep out with no bag or blanket at all! Ray mears built a shelter in the Rockies and a long fire stating he could sleep out with no bag to -50C!! So lying clothed, next to a fire on my thermarest prolite 4, basha if need be, and maybe just a cotton bivvi to cut out some wind and protect the mat from embers, I could survive reasonably cold temps? Any thoughts?
Also designing a custom bag. Has anyone done this too and what type was it? materials used? any nice ideas?
So, fantasy imagary aside, I would love to hear form anyone who carrys a 40L or lighter for a week in the woods and what they carry. I will post a list of the stuff i usually carry in all seasons at some point.

I thought I'd bring back Rainman's original question to the top

 

[forestwalker]

One of the most mysterious and fascinating things about his killing was the killers left behind the copper axe he was carrying -- an item of great value at the time.

On course, based on the theory above, the killers did take his Harley...

The current idea (unless I'm behind the curve in a field far removed from my own) was that they were part of the same village/group, and that the killing was not officially sanctioned/accepted. Imagine explaining to the coppers^W village elders that you are very surprised, nay even distressed, to hear that Ötzi has gone missing. What? I'm carrying his beloved hi-tech copper axe, the one he refered to as "My Precious"? Found it in the woods, I suppose he must have dropped it or something. I never would have guessed that the on-of-a-kind axe must belong to someone. Me being out on a hunt at the same time he went missing? Coincidence, pure coincidence. Honest guv...

 

[forestwalker]

And I came across the idea that I would attempt to Elvenise my equipment. I.e. Miminise what I really need and to find lighter (and preferably natural materials and neutral coloured) replacements. I have swapped over from tent to hammock, or bivvi, and I'm currently sourcing materials for a custom made ultralight hammock. I have found a lovely titanium pot to replace my heavy zebra billy, titanium spork instead of steel KFS etc etc
I have read the threads about sleeping bag vs blankets and the discussions usually address warmth to weight ratio, but i have not read much about the bulkiness. I usually put my bag in my rucksack then wonder where all my 75 litres went!

Blankets are generally bulkier than sleeping bags, for the same warmth. The way to solve this is to use your sleeping system as a garment during the day; hooded cloak, capote, great kilt.

I am trying to work out what equipment I'd need to sleep out with no bag or blanket at all! Ray mears built a shelter in the Rockies and a long fire stating he could sleep out with no bag to -50C!! So lying clothed, next to a fire on my thermarest prolite 4, basha if need be, and maybe just a cotton bivvi to cut out some wind and protect the mat from embers, I could survive reasonably cold temps? Any thoughts?

I would not choose the thermarest; they are a bit sensitive to sparks. But other than that it is doable. But you will trade convenience for reduced kit. Building the shelter and gathering the firewood takes time (and effort) compared to setting up modern kit. Where is the optimal balance? I don't know, I don't think there is one answer.

Also; where are you? Crossing the Urals in winter is different from a English lowland hike in summer, and also from walking from Perth to Alice Springs.

Also designing a custom bag. Has anyone done this too and what type was it? materials used? any nice ideas?

Backpack? I have a leather daypack (25-30 l, never measured) that has gone out more than a few times into the woods. I have the materials to make a smallish (35-40 l) wooden framed leather pack, to be completed this summer. It will be haeavier than an LK35, less durable in continous wet, but should last at least a 2-3 decades (the day pack is 22 years old). I've seen canvas (these days I'd pick linnen or hemp, not cotton) packs in various ranges, including my own duluth copy.

So, fantasy imagary aside, I would love to hear form anyone who carrys a 40L or lighter for a week in the woods and what they carry. I will post a list of the stuff i usually carry in all seasons at some point.

I've done the week with only some extra clothes. It is easy to do with Tolkieneque elven or Ranger style kit; wool pants, soft boots w. socks or wraps, linnen and wool tunics and a hooded cloak (or poncho, capote, etc if you want to take liberty with the literary pattern), belt with a knife and pouch, carrying a daypack with some food, an axe and a cookpot, cup and spoon (+ a litre or so of misc repair, firelighting kit, cordage, etc). But I'd have to spend time building shelters, have an impact on the land (even if quite reasonable as long as few of us do it) if the weather wasn't perfect, and be wet if it rained (not that it matters much with that kit, just as Wayland noted). And trust me, walking in dense woods wearing a cloak is not convenient. Add a basha and a foam pad and you save quite a bit of time.

For minimal kit travel have a look at BOSS (http://www.boss-inc.com); they do a 28 day course with blanket+poncho as the main extras.

 

[Tadpole]

Ötzi was shot by an arrow, of a different style than the ones his tribe used, He even collected a few of the arrows and had them in his quiver when he died, including the broken off shaft from the one that had pierced him from behind and was lodged in his shoulder. Whist is was probably not enough to kill him out right; it did weaken him, and forced him to risk crossing the high pass, during an impending storm. He was miles away from the people who shot him when he died, so I doubt that a, anyone knew he had such a valuable weapon nor would they follow into the teeth of a storm to strip him of his axe, and b chances are he wandered a long way from their tribal area before he died so they’d not risk being killed for an unknown quantity.

If as is the current ‘theory’, his companions (if he had any) tried to remove the arrow and failed, possibly aggravation his condition, I’m sure that Ötzi being of a lower status than the rest of his tribe, would not be the only one to have a copper axe.
They may also have been trying to get away from the storm or from the people following them, and just didn’t have the time or energy to carry his pack/weapons back to the village. Or they did strip him of all that they thought was valuable.

 

[Wayland]

I find a wool poncho to be a great piece of equipment.

I like cloaks and have got used to them through my work but as mentioned, best not dragged through dense thicket.

A poncho, especially when belted, is much more practical in close country and can still be used as small blanket.

With a waterproof / resistant poncho on top it sorts your wet weather gear and shelter requirements as well.

 

[forestwalker]

I find a wool poncho to be a great piece of equipment.

I like cloaks and have got used to them through my work but as mentioned, best not dragged through dense thicket.

They are nice in their niche, but for doing things/working I like the "kimono" style jackets better. I have one made from a wool banket and it is lovely on mild winter days (we are talking Viking era clothing here, for anyone following this at home). I once saw a rectangular cloak, vadmal with a rya liner. Must have been very nice, no idea if documentable.

A poncho, especially when belted, is much more practical in close country and can still be used as small blanket.

With a waterproof / resistant poncho on top it sorts your wet weather gear and shelter requirements as well.

I've been thinking of a blanket-ventile capote, or a blanket-poplin Inuit style parka. Or at least putting a slot w. covering flaps to make a blanket poncho compatible.

 

[sandbender]

"I've done the week with only some extra clothes. It is easy to do with Tolkieneque elven or Ranger style kit; wool pants, soft boots w. socks or wraps, linnen and wool tunics........For minimal kit travel have a look at BOSS (http://www.boss-inc.com); they do a 28 day course with blanket+poncho as the main extras..."

That URL needs to be tweaked a bit, here is the 28 day course, many thanks for the link

 

[Tadpole]

Didn't the BOSS instructors kill some one a year or so ago, by denying him water for ten hours in the desert walk, they didn't even give him water when he was a couple of hundred yards from a cave with a water pool.

 

[Minotaur]

The Irish emigres - the potato famine,

Oh boy!

Agreed that betterment was a significant motivation. However, history convincingly demonstrates that the fastest path to wealth and betterment tends to come from staying at home.

Nope, sure leaving produced more wealth than staying.

Ref Sleeping systems, wonder how the Australia swag bag thing would stand up elsewhere?

Do think everyone is right that you have to look at your kit as a whole, rather than a group of tasks.

The big problems facing this sort of task are food, and heat. Anyone you could look at, who has faced these problems in the past has solved them with options that we can no longer use Surprised this has not started a bivi bag vs hammock debate.

Also one of the options used by people following the lightweight path is to get rid of the sleeping bag.

 

[Wayland]

Didn't the BOSS instructors kill some one a year or so ago, by denying him water for ten hours in the desert walk, they didn't even give him water when he was a couple of hundred yards from a cave with a water pool.

That's more or less what I was thinking.

Not everyone's cup of tea I guess.

 

[forestwalker]

Didn't the BOSS instructors kill some one a year or so ago, by denying him water for ten hours in the desert walk, they didn't even give him water when he was a couple of hundred yards from a cave with a water pool.

I saw that story, but only one side (I expect that their legal council said "don't talk to anyone")... Googling indicates that the case was resolved in a friendly manner, and no note of anyone being convicted of manslaughter or gross negliglence. My guess is that

a. they had felt pushed by the "we want adventure" meme to make things harder and harder until something broke, and

b. the participant was not actually ready for the course, and they erred in letting him participate anyway

If I had $4000 "left over" and a bit better training level (no real time for PT the last year or two :-( ) I would not hesitiate to take the course. It sounds fun, and my impression is that BOSS is a fairly reputable outfit. It is on my "if I win the lottery/get paid indecent amounts of money" list.

 

[forestwalker]

That's more or less what I was thinking.

Not everyone's cup of tea I guess.

My impression is that it is a "minimal equipment" and "push your limits" thing. For some this has an appeal, for others it is not their idea of worthwhile. The reasons I've been semi-drooling over it for a number of years is that the notion of (1) learning some dry country skills and (2) seeing how well I function under extreme conditions for a month appeals to me. But the cost is a major issue.

 

[forestwalker]

Hmm, an alternative might be "The 2009 Stone Age Project" run by Lynx Vilden (http://www.hollowtop.com/lynx_shepherd.htm), even if it is not quite the same thing. I've met Lynx, and she's good, and the long term projects does sound quite interesting. But I have a life (as in familly and job), so no go (it goes on all summer).

 

[Tadpole]

I saw that story, but only one side (I expect that their legal council said "don't talk to anyone")... Googling indicates that the case was resolved in a friendly manner, and no note of anyone being convicted of manslaughter or gross negliglence. My guess is that

From what I have just read, BOSS were forced to re-train some of the "guide" change their policy to bring it in line with US Rules regarding carrying water that other users of goverment land have to obay (BOSS's policy is now that 32 ounces of water is to carried by students) and BOSS paid quite a large sum of money to the Buschow family in an out of court settlement,
They did I grant you set up a scholarship in Dave Buschow name.

 

[Minotaur]

Didn't the BOSS instructors kill some one a year or so ago, by denying him water for ten hours in the desert walk, they didn't even give him water when he was a couple of hundred yards from a cave with a water pool.

They did not deny him water, for some reason no one knows, he did not drink, but they handled the point were he was in trouble badly.

I think they settled in the not to would bankrupt you.

 

[Tadpole]

They did not deny him water, for some reason no one knows, he did not drink, but they handled the point were he was in trouble badly.

I think they settled in the not to would bankrupt you.

According to the reports I have recently read, he did not drink the water 'offered to him' becasue he was dead.
He was refused water right up to that point, it was only after he had collapsed, his breathing had stopped, and his eyes had turned glassy that the instructor and a trainee turned him over and tried to get him to drink.
Water that the instructors were carrying.

 

[Bravo4]

My impression is that it is a "minimal equipment" and "push your limits" thing. For some this has an appeal, for others it is not their idea of worthwhile. The reasons I've been semi-drooling over it for a number of years is that the notion of (1) learning some dry country skills and (2) seeing how well I function under extreme conditions for a month appeals to me. But the cost is a major issue.

I've never been on a BOSS course, I can manage to dehydrate myself in the middle of nowhere for less than 1/4 of the cost and so can you.
One of the places I got caught a little short on water(mentioned earlier) was in SE Utah while crossing the Kaiparowits plateau, around where BOSS runs their 28 day. Point being, WATER is everything in this environment to include your ability to MOVE to it as well as find it, conserve it, bla bla bla. People can die from dehydration here in a matter of hours, not days, hours. If you can't find water you won't be needing say, a hammock.

Starting a fire is usually not a problem because there is no WATER in, on, or near whatever it is you would like to ignite. If you can light a fire in wet conditions, you'll do great in the desert. Blankets and ponchos do fine here, water is THE dry country skill.

One thing with the blanket/poncho setup, is up in the mountains where it's often cold and wet. The problem for me comes with fire, not being able to have one for whatever land management reasons.

Blanket/poncho/fire sort of go together and if the use of fire is somehow restricted I suppose that I travel more safely with modern gear. I've mostly used modern equipment and techniques but I often feel a little silly outfitted like a spaceman for exploring planet earth,,,,,aren't I from here?

There is also a HUGE amount of money being spent, merely to entice me into buying certain products and I'm kinda sick of it. If Grandma Gatewood can hike the Appalachian Trail in Keds sneakers and all of $50 worth of kit, what is it exactly that is stopping me? With all my training and experience, why do I feel I need "better" gear than she? Macho ex-army guy shamed by little old lady with blanket.

Can't really condemn the elvenising of equipment by what a couple of instructors may or may not have done, come to think of it a death and all the press probably brought them more business.