cars, waste of money?

[santaman2000]

I working on a Congo type rack at the moment, just depends on weather it's cheaper to buy of the shelf either self import or through one of the garages over here that do a.lot with Jeeps, or have one fabricated, hahaha I wonder what the police would say about a dog trailer, though more importantly i know my two would not travel in it, the kids might though?

The dog trailer I mentioned was a properly designed (enclosed; much like the airline type only more solid and aerodynamic) kennel so it would probably pass muster there as well. Wish I could post a pic but unfortunately I didn't get one.

 

[cbr6fs]

Depends on your circumstances really i guess.

Personally i'm a petrolhead so love cars and take a lot of enjoyment from racing, driving and working on them.

The cost thing always gets me.
You get folks that buy a brand new car, service it every time at a main dealer, trade it in at a dealer, then buy another new car, THEN they complain about money

Its not really rocket science.
I bought my Roadster (Jap import MX5/Miata) 8 years ago for £3k.
If i sold it tomorrow i could probably get £2k for it.
I do all the tuning and servicing work myself and although i've spent a small fortune making it go faster i'd get around 3/4 the value of that back again i removed all the bits and sold them separately.

The Mrs bought a Megane sport for €36k, 6 years later it's worth €10k.
She's lost €26k in depreciation only.

That's more than my car cost ALL the extra bits and aprt from fuel every penny i've spent on my car since i've owned it.

So it really depends on the person and if you can be bothered to save money.
Most folks complain about the cost of motoring but when you tell them not to buy new, don't service at a main dealer, NEVER sell at a dealer etc they all say "i can't be bothered to do anything else".

That's fine, but by the same hand they can't really complain about the cost of motoring if they're to lazy to actually acknowledge or do anything about it.

 

[santaman2000]

I do a good deal of my own work also. Realistically though, not everyone is mechanically inclined. It's not just a matter of choice; they simply don't have the skills to do their own work. For them, those extra maintenance costs are very real. As cars get more modern with more onboard electronics controlling the mechanics, I too am becoming more dependent on professional assistance. Being retired military I still have access to the Base auto hobby shop and can get free advise there often (as well as cheap access to a vehicle lift and heavy shop tools) But again, not everyone has that priveledge.

Regarding used vehicles; well that's partly true; if it's for a second vehicle or a hobby vehicle. If you seriously "need" a vehicle though it's probably imperative that it be absolutely reliable. Meaning that when I get in and turn the key it absolutely must start; no dallying around under the bonnet while the wife is sitting in the passenger seat screaming to get to the hospital maternity ward 20 miles away in town. Not such a big deal if you own 2 or more vehicles, or if it's more for convenience than necessity.

 

[Graham_S]

How much does it cost to run over there? It must be loads cheaper.

Petrol costs me 10p/l
I can commute to work for two weeks on £3 worth of petrol
Insurance comes with the car, servicing is cheap.

 

[cbr6fs]

I do a good deal of my own work also. Realistically though, not everyone is mechanically inclined. It's not just a matter of choice; they simply don't have the skills to do their own work. For them, those extra maintenance costs are very real. As cars get more modern with more onboard electronics controlling the mechanics, I too am becoming more dependent on professional assistance. Being retired military I still have access to the Base auto hobby shop and can get free advise there often (as well as cheap access to a vehicle lift and heavy shop tools) But again, not everyone has that priveledge.

I can understand that.
With the folks i have in mind if they approached a car with a bucket and sponge i'd want the immediate area evacuated, never mind a spanner and socket set

There are also those folks driving premium cars, although i did 99% of the work on my 911 myself i still had it serviced at a reputable specialist garage, as selling it on without a FSH would have been a nightmare and i'd have lost more than the services cost.

Then there are modern car EMS systems, all of which will need the service indicator reset and any OBD faults read and diagnosed.


If money was a major concern though (which i conclude it must be as these folks were sat in front of me moaning about it), then you'd think they'd at least be bothered enough to ring around and get a few quotes, rather than go straight to the main dealer.

A while back i was sat listening as the old gal told me how much her car cost her to run and the expenses she's had over the last year.
So i told her to itemise the expenses (as it was a new car so it shouldn't be THAT bad).
Turns out she took her car to the main dealer to get her tyres and exhaust changed

She dug out the bill and she paid out £800 for the exhaust and £600 for 4 tyres.
To prove a point the next time were out i stopped off at the local ATS type place that i knew the main dealer used.
The exhaust was £350 fitted and the tyres £200 fitted and yes they had fitted both the exhaust and tyres to her car.

So that's near on £1000 she's paid to the main dealer just because she couldn't be bothered to ring round anywhere else.
She THEN sold the car a few weeks after

Even crazier is when we were last back over, she sat moaning about the exact same thing, turns she did exactly the same when her new cars tyres needed replacing


So motoring can be as cheap or as expensive as you make it.
If saving money is a major priority then go out and buy a used VW Polo bluemotion diesel, it'll sip fuel so slowly you'll have forgotten how to fill by the time it next needs more fuel

Buy it private and look around for a good deal, service it yourself or ring around some smaller garages and get some quotes.
It's diesel so the motor will still be running long after your grandkids have grey hair, just look after the shell and it'll last longer than many of us on here.

Regarding used vehicles; well that's partly true; if it's for a second vehicle or a hobby vehicle. If you seriously "need" a vehicle though it's probably imperative that it be absolutely reliable. Meaning that when I get in and turn the key it absolutely must start; no dallying around under the bonnet while the wife is sitting in the passenger seat screaming to get to the hospital maternity ward 20 miles away in town. Not such a big deal if you own 2 or more vehicles, or if it's more for convenience than necessity.

I'm sorry but there is no car or mechanical/electrical device on the planet that's 100% reliable, age and value makes absolutely no difference at all.

Speaking as someone that has been repairing, tuning, buying and selling being in or very close to the trade and driving pretty much all types of cars from £30 bangers to Ferrari's, Porsche's, classics etc for the last 30 years i can tell you i've had more new cars fail on me than old cars.
It really does not make any difference at all with regard to reliability, it's an old wives tail.

If you choose your car wisely, service and maintain it correctly and diagnose potential problems early it makes absolutely no difference reliability wise if it's 1 day old or 10 years old.

I've delivered brand new cars with 2 digits in the mileometer and had them fail, cam belt jumped, coil packs, fuel pumps, immobiliser, had the seat switch on Lexus stick one time pushing me into the steering wheel
These where brand new cars driven extremely carefully.

As another point towards my case the Mrs's car was brand new.
It's used extremely lightly, serviced regularly and kept in a covered parking.
She's had new coils, fuel pump, steering rack, 2 x sets of shocks, new sunroof, 2 x drivers and 1 x passenger window mechs.

It's not just because it's a Renault either
Me mates Merc has spent 3 weeks of the 3 months he's owned it back at the main dealer, because of various problems.

My MX5 is a 94 with just under 200k miles on the clock.
It's done the Greece UK drive 3 times, toured around Europe, it's raced and tracked several times a year, is used as daily transport and is used for 90% of any trips we go on.

Off the top of me head it's let me down 3 times in 8 years.
All 3 times 100% human error
1 x flat battery
As the passenger didn't close the door properly

1 x blown motor,
Was faffing about tuning, knew the fuel pump was weak, ignored it and ran lean at full boost.

1 x Supercharger pulley bolts sheared
I'd used the wrong bolts).


What makes it even crazier though, is if you buy a older car you get a better car for your money, and if you pick wisely not only will it not depreciate there's a damn good chance that if you sell it after 5 years you'll sell it for more than you bought it for.

£20k will get you a pretty basic new Mondeo
OR
A last of the air cooled 993 Porsche 911, pick wisely and there is no way shape or form it'll depreciate any more.

Elise, S2000 even the new Mini holds it's value.

So motoring can be as cheap or as expensive as you make it.

 

[santaman2000]

...Speaking as someone that has been repairing, tuning, buying and selling being in or very close to the trade and driving pretty much all types of cars from £30 bangers to Ferrari's, Porsche's, classics etc for the last 30 years i can tell you i've had more new cars fail on me than old cars.
It really does not make any difference at all with regard to reliability, it's an old wives tail...

REPLY:
As someone who has been driving, repairing and modifying (and yes, racing when I was a teenager) cars, pick-ups, log trucks tractors, motorcycles outboard motors chainsaws and aircraft for over 40 years I disagree. Autos wear out; just like any other machine. The older it is, the more maintenance and repairs they need. That's why police cars, ambulances, and most emergency vehicles are replaced every 3 years or less; non emergency government autos every 5 years or so (unless your in corrections and get the worn out hand-me-downs.

 

[santaman2000]

...If saving money is a major priority then go out and buy a used...diesel...

I agree completely on this one. Unfortunately over here diesels are generally not available (anywhere on this continent) for anything less than a 3/4 ton truck. There are a couple of exceptions but rare. Even more unfathomable to me is that other than tractors and the commercial trucks, diesel is generally rejected by the public (that being the reason the manufacturers don't offer them) The popular high mileage vehicles (at the moment) are hybrids. They seem to do well but I'll hold judgement until they've been on the road a decade or so and have a proven record. Also semi-popular right now are pick-ups with variable displacement (a big block V8 engine that shuts down 4 cylinders when at constant highway speed)

 

[cbr6fs]

REPLY:
As someone who has been driving, repairing and modifying (and yes, racing when I was a teenager) cars, pick-ups, log trucks tractors, motorcycles outboard motors chainsaws and aircraft for over 40 years I disagree. Autos wear out; just like any other machine. The older it is, the more maintenance and repairs they need. That's why police cars, ambulances, and most emergency vehicles are replaced every 3 years or less; non emergency government autos every 5 years or so (unless your in corrections and get the worn out hand-me-downs.

Of course mechanical components wear out.

That's why i specifically stated:

If you choose your car wisely, service and maintain it correctly and diagnose potential problems early it makes absolutely no difference reliability wise if it's 1 day old or 10 years old.

Emergency services vehicles are not changed every 3 years over here in Europe, so it's not a standard policy.

It's also worth pointing out that emergency vehicles are in use 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
These are not your typical operating conditions.

If you look through various workshop manuals you will find that it's rare that a service interval will reduce depending on the age or mileage in fact i've never seen or known of it.

So your statement.

The older it is, the more maintenance and repairs they need.

Is incorrect.

SOME older cars MAY need repairs as they get older, but by the same token so do new cars.

As i say if you pick wisely and have a certain amount of mechanical sympathy there is no reason a 10 year old motors won't run past 150k to 200k miles without a major rebuild.

Even then it's unlikely it will fail, you'll just end up burning more oil than petrol

 

[santaman2000]

...It's also worth pointing out that emergency vehicles are in use 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
These are not your typical operating conditions...

Police cars are only driven for an 8 hour shift (5 days a week) or a 10 hour shift (4 days a week) then sit in the cops yard until the next duty shift. Ambulances and firetrucks sit at the department and only go out when there is an emergency call.

 

[santaman2000]

...If you look through various workshop manuals you will find that it's rare that a service interval will reduce depending on the age or mileage in fact i've never seen or known of it...

I've gotten the shop manual with evey NEW vehicle I've bought in the last 25 years. You're correct the service schedule does not reduce as it gets older; it ENDS after about 100,000 or 120,000 miles or 5 years.

 

[santaman2000]

...SOME older cars MAY need repairs as they get older, but by the same token so do new cars...

New cars are under warranty.

 

[cbr6fs]

Police cars are only driven for an 8 hour shift (5 days a week) or a 10 hour shift (4 days a week) then sit in the cops yard until the next duty shift. Ambulances and firetrucks sit at the department and only go out when there is an emergency call.

Again that must be a regional thing as it's certainly not the case here, they're very much hot bunked.

I've gotten the shop manual with evey NEW vehicle I've bought in the last 25 years. You're correct the service schedule does not reduce as it gets older; it ENDS after about 100,000 or 120,000 miles or 5 years.

It ends because any further mileage is simply a repeat of the exact same service intervals.

The service at 100k will be the exact same service as it clicks round to 200k, 300k etc etc.

 

[santaman2000]

...I've delivered brand new cars with 2 digits in the mileometer and had them fail, cam belt jumped, coil packs, fuel pumps, immobiliser, had the seat switch on Lexus stick one time pushing me into the steering wheel
These where brand new cars driven extremely carefully...

These should have been repaired free under warranty or refunded under consumer protection laws (the "lemon" law)

 

[cbr6fs]

New cars are under warranty.

Again speaking from extensive personal experience, the manufacturers warranty is more often than not simply not worth the paper it's written on.
I've seen customers hit with thousands of pounds worth of bills because it's a poor dealer and they found a get out clause somewhere.

In many of those cases the customer has had to take the matter through the courts to get a satisfactory conclusion.

If your a warranty type person though there are very many secondhand car dealers over here in Europe that offer a warranty with their cars.

 

[santaman2000]

Again that must be a regional thing as it's certainly not the case here, they're very much hot bunked...

A cop car is the cop's "office." All of his ticket books, back-up weapons, spare handcuffs, files, body armor, shotgun, etc. are in the vehicle. The department computer (with all his personal files) is installed. Is a European cop expected to remove and re-install everything at each change of watch? To download his files and reload them?

Are ambulances and firetrucks constantly patrolling around hoping for a call?

Just as important, are the departments willing to accept the fidicuary liability issues when fielding older vehicles?

 

[santaman2000]

Again speaking from extensive personal experience, the manufacturers warranty is more often than not simply not worth the paper it's written on.
I've seen customers hit with thousands of pounds worth of bills because it's a poor dealer and they found a get out clause somewhere...

This may well be a regional thing. Over here the dealers rely on repeat business and family brand loyalty so warranties are very well honored.

 

[santaman2000]

...It ends because any further mileage is simply a repeat of the exact same service intervals.

The service at 100k will be the exact same service as it clicks round to 200k, 300k etc etc.

Granted the interval continues at the same rate but that's not why manual ends; it ends because that's the point where the manufacturer considers the vehicle will be either unreliable or (more likely) obsolete.

 

[cbr6fs]

These should have been repaired free under warranty or refunded under consumer protection laws (the "lemon" law)

This is getting a little silly now.


You prefer to buy new cars, your money, your choice

Personally i'm extremely happy that you do, as that means your pocket is taking the massive depreciation over the first few years of ownership.
You'll also by ironing out any potential assembly errors and going through the hassle of trying to claim the warranty on them.

If your willing to flush thousands and thousands of dollars away for absolutely no reason that is completely your choice

From my own personal extensive experiences though i prefer to buy older cars, i'm confident in my abilities to sniff out a bad one and so far i've not had any regrets about my choices.

You can pick away at my posts but the fact does still remain that new cars do fail.
Bad cars have been manufactured and many manufacturers have done extension recalls on many many cars (Toyota anyone ).

As i say i choose the model i can i buy extremely carefully.
I do extensive research and narrow my list down to a few, i then test drive the hell out of as many examples as i can find, i then research that model of car to find out any possible failure points.

I then find one in the price range i'm willing to pay, give it an extensive check over, test drive, weigh up the previous owner etc.
Then buy.

Some will not have the energy to do that, again there is no right or wrong here, it's a personal choice.
Some prefer to roll up to a dealer, roll out their cars, sign the paper work and roll out in their new car.

Again fair enough.
But they must be aware that they've lost thousands the second they signed the paperwork, it'll then be a financial downhill from there onwards.

Again fair enough.
BUT they can't in good concious sit there and complain about how much money they've lost and the cost of motoring (i'm talking about personal experiences here, not having a go at anyone on here).

You make you bed, you lay in it

A cop car is the cop's "office." All of his ticket books, back-up weapons, spare handcuffs, files, body armor, shotgun, etc. are in the vehicle. The department computer (with all his personal files) is installed. Is a European cop expected to remove and re-install everything at each change of watch? To download his files and reload them?

Are ambulances and firetrucks constantly patrolling around hoping for a call?

Yep he/she certainly are.
Plus of course the cops in the UK are not armed

This may well be a regional thing. Over here the dealers rely on repeat business and family brand loyalty so warranties are very well honored.

Nope it's exactly the same in the US, i have had mates that have had major problems with dealers honouring the warranty on new cars.

In this case the dealer insisted that my mate had down shifted to hard over reving the engine.
Odd thing is it was an Automatic transmission so it was physically impossible to downshift too hard.

He managed to sort it in the end, but it meant his car was sat for nearly 1 year awaiting repair.

When he did eventually get it back running there was not 1 panel on the car that had been damaged, the interior stunk, the carpet was wet through and the stereo and speakers were missing.
Rather than go through the courts again, he just sold it.

Granted the interval continues at the same rate but that's not why manual ends; it ends because that's the point where the manufacturer considers the vehicle will be either unreliable or (more likely) obsolete.

Because of manufacturing cost cutting it's extremely rare these days to have a car "obsolete".
Main reason being that very few parts are specific to certain model, the vast vast majority are shared across a platform or even across an entire run.

Even on older cars, again if you pick wisely you can find anything.
A guy on another forum i participate in has just bought a brand new shell for his MGB.
This a car that's 40 years old


It's also a legal obligation on car manufacturers that they must produce parts for 10 years after the production date.

Again from personal experience my MX5 is a 1994 so it's 17 years old and counting.
I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever find any parts, from plastic clips to new suspension wishbones i can find them within a few mins searching.

 

[santaman2000]

...Because of manufacturing cost cutting it's extremely rare these days to have a car "obsolete".
Main reason being that very few parts are specific to certain model, the vast vast majority are shared across a platform or even across an entire run.

Even on older cars, again if you pick wisely you can find anything.
A guy on another forum i participate in has just bought a brand new shell for his MGB.
This a car that's 40 years old...

The same is true here. In fact after 5 or so years parts actually get cheaper; the original manufacturer opens the patents and after-market makers begin to make generic parts and rebuilt components.

But that's not what I meant by "obsolete." I mean the very design doesn't usually meet current customers' expectations after that.

Personally I prefer older cars as well (perhaps for different reasons though) I simply have a love affair going with 1960s era vehicles. It's when I learned to drive and it was the age of raw engine muscle and awe inspiring body styles.

 

[santaman2000]

The same is true here. In fact after 5 or so years parts actually get cheaper; the original manufacturer opens the patents and after-market makers begin to make generic parts and rebuilt components.

But that's not what I meant by "obsolete." I mean the very design doesn't usually meet current customers' expectations after that.

Personally I prefer older cars as well (perhaps for different reasons though) I simply have a love affair going with 1960s era vehicles. It's when I learned to drive and it was the age of raw engine muscle and awe inspiring body styles.

If/when money permits, I want to find and rebuild a Jeep CJ5 and a Pontiac GTO as well as a Chevelle Malibu (all from the 60s era)