Homeopathy and alternative medicine discussion

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As with any profession, there will be a range of expertise and capabilities amongst homeopaths. I fully understand the skepticism, especially as the underlying explanations of why it works are so difficult to rationalise.

My difficulty in rejecting homeopathy is largely based on the number of people I know who have apparently been successfully treated, after other treatment had failed them. But as to what exactly is behind this success, is another question.


Graham

Personally I think it's just a dressed-up placebo.

The problem with placebo is that it can't be knowingly administered because to inform someone you're giving them a placebo would make the whole idea redundant. And a person can't be administered something without being told what it is because that's just wrong.
I'm of the opinion that the medical world knows homeopathy works only as a placebo but in order to keep administering it, they can't inform their patients what it actually is.

If you tell people it's a 'natural remedy' they believe they have been given something other than water/sugar pills and, regardless of whether they believe in it or not, they are acknowledging on some level that they have taken a form of medication. That's the thing about the placebo effect - it has more to do with the mind than the body, and we're nowhere near knowing enough about the way the mind works to figure out what the hell's
going on.


This is purely my laymans opinion though. I'm not in the medical profession so can't really put forward a good case.

 

[myotis]

That's the thing about the placebo effect - it has more to do with the mind than the body, and we're nowhere near knowing enough about the way the mind works to figure out what the hell's going on.

I certainly agree with the importance of the mind in how people get better, and the fact that people are just different.

I'm less convinced about the rest of your argument, but you would expect me to say that

Graham

 

[Toddy]

The thing is though ,hat even if the effect *,is* caused by a placebo, it is a effect, a result, a successful outcome. To someone who is suffering, and a placebo gives relief, that is still a very great benefit.
Now, how to switch on the body's own healing mechanisms........back to Carla's Naturopathy, I suspect

cheers,
Toddy

 

[JohnC]

re placebo's: oddly enough, in the work I do, if a trial/study has an "arm" that includes the delivery of a placebo (and not many do) we are required to let the person considering the trial know that there is a chance they will receive a placebo. This is called "single blinding", if I dont know what they are getting either (drug is given a code number) its called "double blinding". If its the drug only that is being trialed ie no placebo arm, then its called "open label".

 

[myotis]

Now, how to switch on the body's own healing mechanisms........back to Carla's Naturopathy, I suspect

Or indeed the subject of this thread as this is what homeopathy is meant to be doing, simply acting as an enhanced stimulus or catalyst for the bodies own healing mechanisms.

But I agree with you that the placebo effect is much maligned. If someone feels better, and loses the symptoms, then the cure was successful, even if we can't find a neat scientific explanation for it.

We could of course debate all day as to what we mean by successful.

Graham

 

[Toddy]

There is an argument that the body lives in a state of constant flux, it has to react to outside stimulus / attack/ wear and tear, etc., to keep itself ticking over and healthily maintained. Most things *cure* and heal up, but virus, cancer and auto immune diseases seem to be the ones that we can't eradicate ourselves. Does homeopathy actually have any record of success with these ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[myotis]

Most things *cure* and heal up, but virus, cancer and auto immune diseases seem to be the ones that we can't eradicate ourselves. Does homeopathy actually have any record of success with these ?

No real idea I'm afraid, I do vaguely remember years ago the Glasgow homeopathic hospital claiming higher success rates than their non-homeopathic counterparts during serious flu epidemics. The measure of success being "time of work".

Graham

 

[Wallenstein]

There is an argument that the body lives in a state of constant flux, it has to react to outside stimulus / attack/ wear and tear, etc., to keep itself ticking over and healthily maintained. Most things *cure* and heal up, but virus, cancer and auto immune diseases seem to be the ones that we can't eradicate ourselves. Does homeopathy actually have any record of success with these ?

cheers,
Toddy

You appear to have hit the nail on the head

Many chronic complaints will get better over time - even if they don't vanish completely they will lessen in intensity and then rise again in a cycle ("regression to the mean").

If you happen to take an alternative rememdy during the "downward cycle" you will, being human, ascribe the effect to the remedy. We helpfully discount the times no effect is felt, but immediately notice the odd times there's a result ("confirmation bias").

Homeopathy tends to avoid treating "tricky" acute complaints - it's mostly used for depression, aches and pains, asthma, coughs and colds, skin complaints etc - all the sorts of illnesses that will indeed clear up over time.

As my brother has commented, "no-one comes into A&E with blood pouring everywhere and requests homeopathic pain relief".

It's also worth noting that a lot of complaints have their root cause in a psychological issue... GPs now know that if someone is made redundant and stays unemployed for 6 months or more, there's an 80% chance you will need to treat them for backache within a year.

Where Alt Med does a good job is providing the sense of self-worth - paying attention to someone, basically - which can improve the mood, and that has a knock-on effect into the physical manifestation of the psychological problem.

This is why GPs can now prescribe pets, or gym memberships, or holidays... "mens sana in corpore sano"!

Placebos are fascinating... take sugar pills, for example. If you give someone a red sugar pill, it'll be more effective than a blue sugar pill for headaches.

But if someone has toothache, although a red pill will work better than a blue pill, an injection of saline into the gums will work even better than the red pill.

That's why double-blind placebos don't work - you need to know you're being given a magic solution for it to work.

 

[myotis]

Where Alt Med does a good job is providing the sense of self-worth - paying attention to someone, basically - which can improve the mood, and that has a knock-on effect into the physical manifestation of the psychological problem.

I fully agree that this is a major part of getting better, regardless of what kind of treatment it is.

I know that when I was going to the homeopath, I always left feeling better than when I went in, just because of the way he took the time to listen, and the way he obviously took a long time trying to work out the best treatment.

This was in stark contrast to my visits to the GP and NHS specilaists where every visit left me frustrated, irritated and disillusioned because, of the way they reacted to my description of symptoms. Which apparently were impossible !!!

And I might as well say, the key elements were that I lost 2 stone in weight over a weekend and then over a period of a several weeks went from 14 stone to under 8 stone. Food went straight through me in a couple of hours, largely undigested.

Every meeting with a GP or specialist started with them telling me I couldn't possibly have lost 2 stone in two days, and as they could find nothing physically wrong with me I just had to eat more. Now to be fair I had been on a (very mild) diet, which is how I know how much weight I had lost over the weekend (I was weighing myself every Friday night, was very ill over the weekend and by Monday morning none of my clothes fitted, so I weighed myself on the monday morning).

But now eating more just meant I spent more time on the toilet. So as I was continuing to lose weight and becoming iller and iller, but the NHS was telling me their was nothing wrong with me. Assuming this meant "it was all in my mind" I asked if I could be referred for psycological help, but was told this would be an over kill as all I needed to do was to eat more. But eating more made me iller and it wasn't stopping the steady decline in weight.

In desperation I went to a privately to a Doctor recommended by someone I knew. Who turned out to be a GP who had a private practice using homeopathy and acupuncture. I didn't know this in advance.

The first visit was an hour and he was the first person who seemed to take on board my symptoms, he was happy to discuss my doubts about homeopathy (as this was the approach he had decided to take, together with some allergy tests), and the whole session was a revelation with me feeling better than I had felt in months.

I can't remember the time scale, but I fairly quickly began to digest food again, and start putting weight back on.

Now I don't know how much of this was due to the medicine and how much of it was due to the patient/practitioner interaction. BUT I am convinced that the patient/practitioner
interaction played a major part in me getting better. I had reached the stage where I thought I was just going to die, as nothing I did seemed to be able to stop the weight loss, and the NHS were of no use what so ever.

OK, probably more detail than was wanted, but given the length of this thread and my part in it, its maybe worth explaining.

Graham

 

[Tengu]

If your GP is anything like the ones I know, they would praise you for losing so much weight...

certain digestive disorders seem to get ignored I have seen, untill the patient is in hosptal on a drip to get nutrients to them.

(this happened to a friend of mine)

Now how do I get perscribed a holiday?

 

[myotis]

If your GP is anything like the ones I know, they would praise you for losing so much weight...

certain digestive disorders seem to get ignored I have seen, untill the patient is in hosptal on a drip to get nutrients to them.

Not at the speed I lost it at !!

This was over 20 years ago now, but I do sometimes wonder whether I would have "just got better" or whether I would have ended up in hospital as you describe.

Graham

 

[demographic]

I have to say guys that I find this thread irritating, it's turned from an offer of a workshop at the Moot into a debate on homoeopathy, often threads divert but this was taken off course and that's a bit disrespectful to the original poster.

I'll split it off but I shouldn't need to as a new thread should have been started for a debate about alternative medicines. :twak:

I was wondering why my comment was so short and taken out of context and couldn't rememeber starting a thread with such a flimsy amount of evidence to back up my comments or questions.

Anyway, with all due respect if something is snake oil its snake oil and giving it a fancy name won't change that fact. If its scientifically proven then thats a different kettle of fish altogether.
I believe this comment is aimed at Homeopathy before the naturpaths get all worried...

They have a good safety profile.

Is that a bit like saying theres no active ingredient in them?

As far as naturopathy is concerned I do know that many real working medicines are derived from plant extracts and as long as its scientifically proven I have no problems whatsoever with that.
I will however feel totally free to ask any Homaopathic practitioners to provide proof of the active ingredient content and studies relating to the good that their "Product" actually does as personally I feel that their advice can be dangerously far off the mark.
Especially with regards to Malaria that I have heard of Homeopaths claiming to be able to treat.

Anyone playing with someones life by claiming homeopathic medicines will treat Malaria needs a damn good slap across the back of the lug.
Anyway, thanks for the down to earth comments and facts that have been brought up on this thread I didn't know I had started.
Cheers.
Oh and heres a comment I saw posted on another forum a while ago relating to homeopathic dilutions...

Homeopathic milk. Four quid a bottle. What I do is take the cheapest bottle of milk I can find, tip it out down the sink (don't like the stuff very much) rinse the bottle out a couple of times, then fill it with water. There you go. Homeopathic milk. Cough up the dosh and stick that in your tea, it'll make me feel better as I jingle the change in my pockets, if not you.

Regards Scott.

 

[myotis]

I was wondering why my comment was so short and taken out of context and couldn't rememeber starting a thread with such a flimsy amount of evidence to back up my comments or questions.

I fear it was more my response that set the thread off and running. :-(

Did you follow the link that I offered that took you to the Faculty of Homeopathy, which as was pointed out advised against using homeopathic malaria remedies, given there being no evidence they worked. As well as scientific trials that support the effectiveness of homeopathy.

Graham

 

[mayfly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7451029.stm

 

[firecrest]

I think homeopathy is a question of life quality. It may or may not be placebo (and placebo is merely a word for the bodies own powerful ability to heal itself) But people can go to doctors and feel like a nameless patient, whereas alternative medicines offer the chance to sit down and talk to someone, to actually feel cared about. We know that stress and depression are the biggest underlying causes of shortened life-span. If you lack status, have a stressful job, a low income, you die younger. The bottom line is - feeling looked after is a powerful, and real medicine.

What bothers me about homeopathy, is that people get above themselves. There was a homeopathical remedy on the market for treating MALARIA. Makaria for gods sake! This was banned about 2 months ago by the goverment, but many homeopathic snake-oilers still prescribe medicine for defence agaisnt malaria for people who dont like using the powerful conventional treatments. I think this constitutes as a short between in the ears in both the people who prescribe it and the people who take it. Do they really think 3 million people die needlessly every year for want of diluted water If it could prevent malaria then why isnt it prescribed all over the world?! because its balls, thats why. I had to spend time on a forum convincing some ejjit NOT to go to africa on her homeopathic remedy but to actually take malaria pills. Seriously, this kind of thing can result in people's deaths.

so summary of my opinion - Homeopathy - good for minor complaints because it addresses overall healing.
BAD for treating serious diseases.

 

[myotis]

I had to spend time on a forum convincing some ejjit NOT to go to africa on her homeopathic remedy but to actually take malaria pills. Seriously, this kind of thing can result in people's deaths.

If this happens again, you could try directing them to the The British Homeopathic Association.

http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/csArticles/articles/000001/000107.htm


Assuming they are willing to accept advice from people who almost certainly know a lot more about it than they do, or indeed you or I do.


Graham

 

[demographic]

If this happens again, you could try directing them to the The British Homeopathic Association.

http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/csArticles/articles/000001/000107.htm


Assuming they are willing to accept advice from people who almost certainly know a lot more about it than they do, or indeed you or I do.


Graham

Hang about a bit here...

We have already ascertained that Homeopathic medicine is about as much use as a placebo, it's diluted down so far that it might not even contain a single molecule of "active" ingredient, is about as much use as a cup of tea with somone thats got a sympathetic ear and your still saying its worth going to see one of these snakeoil salesmen?:bluThinki

They sell you a load of water, take your cash and tell you its going to help and they are honest people?

I'm struggling a bit with that one can you please elaborate and tell me how thats not a con? I must be getting the wrong end of the stick here.

Please don't think this applies to those who use remedies that do actualy contain real remedies that are provable cos its only directed at people who sell "Magic water".

 

[myotis]

Hang about a bit here...

We have already ascertained that Homeopathic medicine is about as much use as a placebo, it's diluted down so far that it might not even contain a single molecule of "active" ingredient, is about as much use as a cup of tea with somone thats got a sympathetic ear and your still saying its worth going to see one of these snakeoil salesmen?

Actually, we haven't ascertained this at all.

As far as I am concerned the jury is out on this, There are plenty of scientifically conducted trials that show that homepathic treatment is successful and there is scientific research supporting the "water memory" theory that is used how to try and explain the basis of homoeopathy working.

I still think that the a large part of the very high success rate that homeopaths have is probably down to pastoral care, but I can't ignore the scientific trials which suggest there is also a measurable clinical effect from the remedies.

And the "snake oil salesman" at the British Homeopathy Society and Faculty of Homeopathy are, as far as I am aware, all conventionally trained scientists and traditionally trained medical Doctors.

Hence this being the place I tend to go when looking for information and why it was it was a link to their web site that I offered you in my first post.

However, the reason for suggesting that link in this context was that given the problem, of someone who wanted to use a homeopathic remedy for protection against malaria, it seemed to make sense to point that person to the most reliable source of homeopathic information who said there was no evidence that it worked, and it should not be used.

Surely, their opinion is likely to carry more weight in dissuading someone from using a homeopathic remedy, than opinions from outside the discipline.

Graham

 

[Prophecy]

Very interesting thread!

What would your opinions be if I were to tell you that I know an elderly lady who can cure skin cancer using natural ingredients only found in her garden?

Now I'm not saying I believe that she is curing it with her plants, and I am highly skeptical of the whole thing.

Though she has had over 100 patients over the years, and has cured every single incidence of skin cancer in each patient. Some of those patients were told by their own specialists that their cancer was incurable, and many had unsuccessful operations to try to remove the cancer.

She is not a Doctor of anything and does not charge any money for her work - and there are very few of these 'doctors' left within Ireland, since the secrets and recipes are only shared within families and passed down within them.

Opinions?

 

[myotis]

Though she has had over 100 patients over the years, and has cured every single incidence of skin cancer in each patient. Some of those patients were told by their own specialists that their cancer was incurable, and many had unsuccessful operations to try to remove the cancer.

First question is "how do you know"? What sort of documentation has been collected and how has it been verified.

If anything, the one thing I have learnt from being a scientist is never say never.

So while obviously being sceptical, I would want a lot more information before offering any opinion, and even then I would also want the views of those medically qualified and statistically qualified to critically review the data, before offering my own subjective opinion on it.

Graham