Summary Of Responses On Adding Further Weapons To The Offensive Weapons Order

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andy_e

Native
Aug 22, 2007
1,742
0
Scotland
Try this for a week, keep a note of all the stories you find that relate to violent crime and ask yourself the question: Would this ban or any other similar ban have changed the outcome? Then ask yourself who is bettered by this legislation.

From Oct 1st you've had to register if you want an air-rifle, simple solution, I don't mind it. I haven't owned an air-rifle for years but I've got no problem registering to buy one in the future, after all I have no intention of using it illegally. The lists are in fact pretty redundant but they'll keep politicians and bureaucrats happy.
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
69
Chatham
I have an issue with the term 'offensive' in this context.
Offensive is a state of mind and attitude not a the shape and style of a thing.
In Britain today a folding knife is not an 'offensive' weapon but an identical knife which locks open IS. This alone demonstrates that the item itself is no longer in question since both items are clearly identical in thier potential to cause injury. So the legislation is trying to identify an attitude of the possessor rather than the caopacity of the artifact.
Can you identify an anti-social intent from appearence alone? No of course you cant!!
I am no longer allowed to persue my harmless peaceful & lawabiding desire to shoot targets with a handgun, as i can with a rifle or shotgun. Am i any less of a risk to the public because of this - am I any less likely to suddenly turn into a rampaging homicidal maniac because of this - NO.
No more than an emasculated Bull Terrier is any more placid than any other dog.
Pointless - as always

Rant over

Nick
 
May 12, 2007
1,663
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69
Derby, UK
www.berax.co.uk
I have an issue with the term 'offensive' in this context.
Offensive is a state of mind and attitude not a the shape and style of a thing.
In Britain today a folding knife is not an 'offensive' weapon but an identical knife which locks open IS. This alone demonstrates that the item itself is no longer in question since both items are clearly identical in thier potential to cause injury. So the legislation is trying to identify an attitude of the possessor rather than the caopacity of the artifact.
Can you identify an anti-social intent from appearence alone? No of course you cant!!
I am no longer allowed to persue my harmless peaceful & lawabiding desire to shoot targets with a handgun, as i can with a rifle or shotgun. Am i any less of a risk to the public because of this - am I any less likely to suddenly turn into a rampaging homicidal maniac because of this - NO.
No more than an emasculated Bull Terrier is any more placid than any other dog.
Pointless - as always

Rant over

Nick

that is an excellant point, as how many members own an opinal knife, as they are offensive weapons
 
May 12, 2007
1,663
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Derby, UK
www.berax.co.uk
another point you must consider. one day someone will loose the plot, who owns a high powered stalking rifle legally, and kills a few people from long range, will that be the end of deer stalking, as it was with handguns ?
just one mindless person out of the millions of owners looses it for the rest to be penalised
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
that is an excellant point, as how many members own an opinal knife, as they are offensive weapons

I think your splitting hairs now bernie :) Who says an opinel knife is an offensive weapon ? (apart from the BBC guardian types that write up the law :rolleyes: ) Opinel knife's could be used as one I agre, but they are designed and made to be a pocket knife to open boxes/cut rope/carve etc, not specifically as a weapon. If you have a sword, its purpose IS to attack other people, regardless of your intention or otherwise to be offensive or peacable, theres all sorts of other specialised edge tools for a whole range of cutting operations and task's. or am I missing something? What else can u use a sword for?
 
May 12, 2007
1,663
1
69
Derby, UK
www.berax.co.uk
I think your splitting hairs now bernie :) Who says an opinel knife is an offensive weapon ? (apart from the BBC guardian types that write up the law :rolleyes: ) Opinel knife's could be used as one I agre, but they are designed and made to be a pocket knife to open boxes/cut rope/carve etc, not specifically as a weapon. If you have a sword, its purpose IS to attack other people, regardless of your intention or otherwise to be offensive or peacable, theres all sorts of other specialised edge tools for a whole range of cutting operations and task's. or am I missing something? What else can u use a sword for?

i might be splitting hairs, but the law states any knife that the blade can be locked, is an offensive weapon,and lets be real when was the last death by sword ?
 

Pablo

Settler
Oct 10, 2005
647
5
65
Essex, UK
www.woodlife.co.uk
BTW i think the coffee table is already illegal in UK due to the Butterfly / Balisongs :deal: :eek:

Duncan

Possession in private isn't an offence unless you have it in your possession with a view sale, lend or hire. The thrust of the order is an attempt to stop manufacture, import and sales. It's the same with the samurai swords.

The violent crime and disorder act actually (but not really helpfully) added specific defences other than lawful excuse. It made it defence for use in films and other productions. The consultation document actually asked if there should be any other specific areas for a legitimate defence. Education and reanactments where suggested. It's time we set up a bushcraft re-enactment society. :)

As Red said Hunting knives may now also be considered. It will be interesting to see what they will define as a hunting knife. Length may be a feature.

Pablo.
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
69
Chatham
If you have a sword, its purpose IS to attack other people, regardless of your intention or otherwise to be offensive or peacable, theres all sorts of other specialised edge tools for a whole range of cutting operations and task's. or am I missing something? What else can u use a sword for?

Well you can look at it amongst other things. The point is that it is NOT a mind control device, for a sword (or any other non-sentient artifact) to kill or injure (or even threaten) anybody it must be controlled by a person - the sword won't do it itself. Hanging on a wall or sitting on a table the thing is an inert piece of metal, incapable of any malicious action on its own, it must me placed in the hands of somebody with the INTENT to use that inert piece of metal to cause harm; and if that person wants to cause harm he will, regardless of whether he has a sword, gun, knife, pencil!! sherman tank or whatever.
If that person does not have a sword he can easily manufacture one from available materials, it does not have to be laminated tempered forged shaped or anything to achieve this - readily available a 1 metre long steel straight edge from a graphics arts supplier will be perfectly adequate.
Just because it looks like a sword does not in itself make it an offensive weapon, possession alone is not enough for that - there must be intent as well, therefore removing the possession is an inadequate response without removing the intent at the same time, so logically by removing the intent there is no longer any need to remove the possession.
The gun laws in the light of todays levels of gun crime underlines this fact inarguably, the fact is that there was a 100% hand-in of legally owned handguns, 100% and we have an unprecedented level of gun crime, thereby proving beyond doubt that the laws were/are ineffective.
So will it be with knives/swords, especially since they are are so easy to manufacture.

rant #2 over

Nick
 

ForgeCorvus

Nomad
Oct 27, 2007
425
1
52
norfolk
You've got to remember one thing
Criminals (and wanna be 'badass gangsta' types) don't care if the gun/sword/knife/fluffy-tickling-stick is against the law (in the case of the BG type the 'whatever' breaking the law makes it even more desirable), because BY DEFINITION they are criminals and therefore bans do not apply to them (OK, it will when they get an extra 5 years, but they're not planing on being caught)

Didn't some nutjob go into a school a few years back and attack the kids and staff with a machete ? some politico missed out on justifying their existance


The thing is "Samurai Sword Attack" is a great headline, you're very unlikely to get
" Swept-Hilt Rapier Attack" now are you, I remember when they first reported on Hungerford, Ryans long arm was discribed as "an AK47 " (as in "favored weapon of terrorists"), well I saw the pictures, granted it was a military assault rifle (or looked like one to me) but an AK? more of an AR15
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
LOL! The BBC/Guardian types are much less a problem than the reactionary tabloid media and their poorly informed readers?

Not wanting to get into a slagging match mate, but what makes you so sure that BBC/Gaurdian/Independent etc types are WELL informed :confused: More often than not they are informed by there own prejudices and socialist dogma's, IMHO :)
That "assumption" that the gaurdian/BBC types are the "well informed people from good homes who own the system and deserve to govern :rolleyes: " and are somehow (by divine right of intellectual's possibly, they think egded tools are weaopon's-so they must be??) the only ones fit to form and promote social policy, and every one else who doesnt agree with their dogmatic and narrow view of the world is somehow an inferior and dangerous duffer who "needs to be educated out of their ignorance, with coercive enforced collectivist action if necessary" is what has caused the problems we now have in this coiuntry, (unwarranted growth of state influence into peoples lives with social science theory policy telling them how they shouldlive, what value's they should have etc). The guardian and the BBC are both capable of reactionary tendencies and misinformation (that isnt just something that the so called right wing press is capable of :rolleyes: ) If racism and xenophobia is wrong for example, why do the left wing elements of the media slag israel and America so much, and stir up a particularly genteel and sanitised form of racial prejudice :confused:
 

EdS

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Not wanting to get into a slagging match mate, but what makes you so sure that BBC/Gaurdian/Independent etc types are WELL informed :confused: More often than not they are informed by there own prejudices and socialist dogma's, IMHO :)
That "assumption" that the gaurdian/BBC types are the "well informed people from good homes who own the system and deserve to govern :rolleyes: " and are somehow (by divine right of intellectual's possibly, they think egded tools are weaopon's-so they must be??) the only ones fit to form and promote social policy, and every one else who doesnt agree with their dogmatic and narrow view of the world is somehow an inferior and dangerous duffer who "needs to be educated out of their ignorance, with coercive enforced collectivist action if necessary" is what has caused the problems we now have in this coiuntry, (unwarranted growth of state influence into peoples lives with social science theory policy telling them how they shouldlive, what value's they should have etc). The guardian and the BBC are both capable of reactionary tendencies and misinformation (that isnt just something that the so called right wing press is capable of :rolleyes: ) If racism and xenophobia is wrong for example, why do the left wing elements of the media slag israel and America so much, and stir up a particularly genteel and sanitised form of racial prejudice :confused:


Must bite tongue
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
therefore removing the possession is an inadequate response without removing the intent at the same time, so logically by removing the intent there is no longer any need to remove the possession.

That I would agree with Nick. The humanist/sociail science theories that underly post war British social policy have FAILED miserably to "change" or even "better" people, it cannot acheive "removing the intent" (as you put it) Intention to kill, steal, be corrupt etc; in fact its made things worse, as its unfashionable to teach right from wrong any more :rolleyes: As I said before did the new populist gun law's remove people's desire to use gun's? Or stop or reduce gun crime's? I think not :lmao: Just made ilicit weapon's worth more to a criminal I expect. Kenneth Williams popular gay man said it was impossible to legislate to form people's morality and he was right. The establishment are loathe to admit there efforts to bring about enforced collective utopia have failed, so instead they pick on various minority group's to try to look good.
 

andy_e

Native
Aug 22, 2007
1,742
0
Scotland
Not wanting to get into a slagging match mate, but what makes you so sure that BBC/Gaurdian/Independent etc types are WELL informed :confused: More often than not they are informed by there own prejudices and socialist dogma's, IMHO :)
That "assumption" that the gaurdian/BBC types are the "well informed people from good homes who own the system and deserve to govern :rolleyes: " and are somehow (by divine right of intellectual's possibly, they think egded tools are weaopon's-so they must be??) the only ones fit to form and promote social policy, and every one else who doesnt agree with their dogmatic and narrow view of the world is somehow an inferior and dangerous duffer who "needs to be educated out of their ignorance, with coercive enforced collectivist action if necessary" is what has caused the problems we now have in this coiuntry, (unwarranted growth of state influence into peoples lives with social science theory policy telling them how they shouldlive, what value's they should have etc). The guardian and the BBC are both capable of reactionary tendencies and misinformation (that isnt just something that the so called right wing press is capable of :rolleyes: ) If racism and xenophobia is wrong for example, why do the left wing elements of the media slag israel and America so much, and stir up a particularly genteel and sanitised form of racial prejudice :confused:

Well said my friend, however it's a bit of a leap from what I posted :lmao: my point was that there is no point singling out BBC/Guardian types, IMHO there's plenty of room in the woods for all opinions.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Apparently, there were 270 replies to the consultation. I assume I'm one of the 270 as I did put my name to this, pen a reply and send it to Mr McNulty....


Dear Mr McNulty,
I would like to know how the statistics presented justify a ban of such
items?

There would seem to be no statistically significant increase in the use of
edged weapons over the time periods highlighted in the pdf document.
Additionally, there is no breakdown of how many crimes were committed using
samurai swords, either genuine, replicas or any other variety. It's clear
that the proposal for the ban is based on anecdotal argument rather than
real facts, which I find deeply concerning. It would seem to be driven by
political tokenism.

We seem to be in a "ban it" mindset of late, evangelising the banning of
this and that as if it will be the solution to all our ills. It concerns me
deeply as it totally fails to address the real issues underpinning the
problems in our society. By focussing the attention onto the samurai sword,
you are drawing away from the criminal. But not only does the proposed ban
miss the point, it devalues our democracy, as every ban must do by
definition.

It is the person who commits the crime, the human being behind the gun or
knife that we need to address. That wont happen by banning every conceivable
item that could give him a mechanical advantage, because you will still be
left with a violent human being. We need to understand why our society seems
to be making more violent human beings and find a way of reversing this
trend. We need to treat the disease, not the symptom.

The issue is not that children are carrying knives. As a child in the 60's,
every self respecting boy I knew carried a pocket knife, along with a piece
of string and a conker or two. What has changed, is not the carriage of
knives, but the willingness to use them as weapons. It is the latter that we
must address, not the former.

Even the cheap, tacky replicas should not be banned, because in doing so,
the government is passing a restriction onto me. I have no love of cheap,
Chinese samurai swords, but I do have a love of freedom of choice and
democracy. I have the choice to buy one or not and I value that choice. Do
not take it away from me without gravity and absolute justification,
supported by hard facts not anecdotes. It is the banning of "something"
without proper justification that is most objectionable, it doesn't matter
what. It may be cheap, ugly, useless and unnecessary - some would argue, so
is art. If you remove my right to buy or own one, then you remove something
much more important ...my right to choose.

What statistics do you have to show there is a real problem with these
swords? The evidence in the pdf file doesn't make any attempt to distinguish
between one type of pointed object to the next. I hope that you would not
consider removing a right from the people of this country based on nothing
more than tabloid pressure?

I am a Registered Nurse who works in a trauma unit that covers a large city,
every major trauma within the whole catchment (about a million people) comes
through our department. In the 8 years I have worked there, I have never
heard of a single instance of a samurai sword being used as a weapon. Not
one. I would challenge the minister to provide some statistical evidence to
support the claim that these swords are a real problem? In my experience,
garden tools and kitchen knives are logarithmically more significant, though
perhaps not nearly as emotive. In either case, it is the criminal that
commits the crime, not the tool he uses. Would you attempt to tackle
dangerous driving by banning cars?

By making a demon out of the tool he has used, you are giving the criminal a
tacit absolution - you are telling society that the crime was committed
because of the availability of these swords, not because the criminal had
the intent to do harm. The tool he chooses is, in reality, incidental.
Society is not served in any way at all by such an albeit well intentioned,
misdirection of effort. I implore you to exercise some common sense. This
country has seen ban after ban, seemingly politically motivated with little
real effect other than to erode our freedom, dilute our democracy and sell a
few column inches. Gun crime is now at it's highest ever, 10 years after
handguns were banned. Criminals, by definition, ignore the law. They are
unlikely to respect a ban of anything. The only thing such a ban will
achieve, is a misdirection of public emotion against the sword, a
significant loss of business to thousands of traders, restrictions on law
abiding collectors and a loss of freedom to us all. But above all it sends
out a message that the problems in our society lie with the availability of
these swords and that is fundamentally wrong.

As a nurse I know only too well that if you put a bandage on a weeping sore,
it will look clean on the outside, but the sore continues to weep. It's the
human element we need to tackle, the criminal themselves. Until we have the
courage to address that complex and demanding issue, the wound will continue
to fester.

Yours Sincerely etc...

I felt at the time it was a pointless exercise, but unless you step up, put your money where your mouth is and add your name, you cant really complain if things dont work out how you think they should.

I see in the summary of responses here...
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume...ons/cons-resp-banning-off-weapons?view=Binary

In response to:
Should curved, single edged swords (sometimes known as “samurai swords”) be added to
the Offensive Weapons Order?

Yes: 38
No: 219

I make that just over 85% that say NO!

However, from the YES camp, 4 of the replies were from the police federation. The document immediately adds...

The Police Federation (Represents 140,000 police offi cers) agree that samurai swords should be banned.
They argue that as it will be Police Offi cers who will be resolving any given situation involving weapons,
any legislation should take this into account and protect those offi cers carrying out the business of
protecting members of the public.

I know this is not a vote, just a solicitation of opinion, but I wonder why they bothered asking the public? They may as well of just asked the 4 police officers as they apparently speak for 140,000 people. :rolleyes:
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
...in fact I do know why they asked the public, because if by chance there was resolute support, they could use the consultation as a political tool to justify restrictive legislation. However, if as in this case, the vast majority do not agree, they will simply ignore the results of the consultation and do what they want anway.

Too cynical? Remember Iraq?
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,153
2,898
66
Pembrokeshire
Well - now that these swords are banned I guess that they will,if hand guns are anything to go by, be a lot easier to come by........
 
May 12, 2007
1,663
1
69
Derby, UK
www.berax.co.uk
...in fact I do know why they asked the public, because if by chance there was resolute support, they could use the consultation as a political tool to justify restrictive legislation. However, if as in this case, the vast majority do not agree, they will simply ignore the results of the consultation and do what they want anway.

Too cynical? Remember Iraq?

now where else have i seen that sort of attitude ;)
 

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