point of a survival kit?

[hogstable]

Sorry one handed typing takes too long!!

Perhaps a different answer is to pack your jacket trousers so it has bare essentials in it all the time. Eg folded thin survival bag wrapped in duct tape and in a pocket. Knife and compass attached to a pocket, small First Aid Kit in a tin, small torch as a zip toggle etc.

 

[Steve M]

Pockets are great. I have my compass, knife, whistle, torch and first aid kit in my pockets as well as my PSK. My tiny first aid kit includes a foil blanket, so that's on me too. See now that you come to think about it, what was previously a first aid item is now a survival item, no matter what its manufactured intention. First aid kits are great, being full of packed dry tinder, petroleum jelly, sticky tape, etc.

 

[hogstable]

I found this from Bimble on this site somewhere.

I used to carry a survival kit in a tobacco tin in my pocket when going in bush. If you’re into this sort of thing the best book I’ve got is ‘Build the perfect survival kit’ by John D McCann (ISBN: 0-87349-967-0). It is a US book so includes the obligatory arsenal that you're more likely to kill yourself with than find useful, but the author does give a good breakdown of the essentials and it is well written.
That said, after something Mors Kochanski said at the booshmoot this year I have had a bit of a re-think about survival kits. As Mors pointed out, if you can’t get a drink or sufficient sleep you will break down in two days, make mistakes and die.
His considered thoughts were if your survival kit doesn’t help you get water and aid sleep then it’s useless unless you intend to spend more that 30+ days lost. (That’s a whole month!!! Think about it, if you can’t get rescued before then you aren’t going to be.....)
His view is that you should never venture anywhere if your clothing system is not up to it, as this will kill you quicker than anything else. Food is not needed for 30 days, at a push 40, and you are likely to waste more energy, unless you have a very extensive local knowledge, trying to acquire it than you get from it in a ‘real’ survival situation.
As for sleep, the human body will stop working after two days and shut its self down (sleep). If you are already cold, this is a very long sleep (dead).

He recommended only 6 things that he would deem truly useful for most people.

1) A tin/cup to drink and boil water
2) A Ferro fire starter (in case 3 below gets wet)
3) Matches, the easiest way to light a fire; to quote, “learn the fire bow by all means, but always, always carry matches”.
4) Wax Paper (wet fire lighting)/Candles
5) A strong knife with a single bevel, capable of making feather sticks
6) A down jacket stuffed in the cup with the rest of the bits.

He then said that other things will help, once you get past 3-4 days, if you know what you’re doing. These being:

7) Strong nylon cordage/string
8) Polythene Sheet/Survival Bag
9) Compass
10) Signal Mirror
11) Whistle
12) More tools (Axe/Saw)

After that you get into the 'big' things that will make a big difference. But then your on an extended bushcraft trip, not in a survival situation:

1) Sleeping Bag/kip mat
2) Guns/Fishing Equipment
3) Pack
4) Etc....


i posted this on another forum and some of the comments were

A couple of questions here

What is it with matches ? To my mind it would make much more sense to carry a lighter ? A lighter will provide a stronger flame (depending on the model), last longer and take up less space. There seems to be an obsession with survival tins about matches.

Secondly with regards to the down jacket. Wouldnt it make more sense to have a synthetic jacket ? I know they dont insulate half as well when wet but they are smaller, lighter an dry a lot quicker. Can you even fit a down jacket in a cup ?

Not trying to say i know more than mors or anything ! Just questions . . .

And ...............


It might be because the butane in fag lighters (and camping stoves for that matter) turns to slush at low temperatures.... about the freezing point of water.... and becomes useless. And in petrol lighters the fuel evaporates after a few weeks even if not used.

The solution is obviously to keep a lighter in a warm pocket, however for log term storage in a 'general purpose' survival kit, waterproof matches do make sense I suppose.



And ........

Down jackets pack smaller than their synthetic equivalents (for a similar amount of insulation). Mors "double stuffs" his (to increase insulation. Bear in mind he is talking about survival in -40C type conditions. In reality it is down that loses insulation in the wet but Mors is talking about "dry snow".

A different jacket might be more applicable to the UK - indeed something waterproof and windproof might be seen to more applicable here as its wet and windchill that gets you most of the time here


And ..........


With the new generation of synthetic material - Primaloft is the one that springs to mind - the bulk of clothing has decreased significantly while keeping the insulative value. Down is more likely to lose its 'loft' (ability to trap air by puffing out) than sythetic if stored compressed, but it would still be better than nothing. For the UK - and my budget - I would opt for a synthetic jacket of some description.

Lighters are fantastic pieces of kit, when they work. Even if the butane vapourises enough to burn you still rely on having a dry flint or operating electric ignition device. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to light a fire with a damp lighter, hearing the gas come out and not get a spark! Also, unlike cheap lighters, waterproof matches such as lifeboat matches (I have no connection to the site, it was the first I found on google) will light when we and will burn in a breeze. By all means carry a lighter (preferably a fancy one like this - I have one of these) in your pocket but put the matches in the kit.

Bear in mind that the likes of Mors can probably cope with colder temperatures than most of us due to spending much of his time outdoors in hostile conditions and what might keep him alive may not do much for our ability to survive. Your kit has to reflect your needs in terms of conditions you may encounter and your ability to deal with them. Mors is pointing out that having a kit is no substitute for knowing what to do with its contents...



I haven't quoted the posters for obvious reasons.

Good thread

 

[Doc]

An excellent post, hogstable.

I think it's worth considering what actually kills people in the UK outdoors.

Mostly, it's slips and falls.
Sometimes it's hypothermia. In the UK this often arises from being cold and wet rather than just cold.

So, rather than buy a survival kit, I would concentrate resources on decent boots and decent shell clothing. I would not skimp on navigational equipment either.

 

[FGYT]

Survival Tins in this day and age are very much a military idea, but possibles pouches / bags were very much the mountain man survival kit as they carried very much the same things as you would carry in a survival kit anyway.

The way I looked at things in the military was that the survival kit was a modular piece of kit that started with the vehicle, then the bergan, then your webbing and last but not least a survival tin.

Your knowledge and the way you used the items carried in the containers (vehicle, bergan, webbing and tin) dictated how effectively you could survive. This also means that the kit is very much tailored to the environment in which you were travelling.

Possibles pouches and survival tins both carry things which could be classed as essentials and are worn or carried about the body. They also do not neccesarily need to be tailored for a specific environment as they hold items that you would need or could be of use in any environment.

We all carry a certain amount of survival kit on an everyday basis, but the knowledge of how to use it and what we can make use of within an environment is realy the thing that helps us to survive.

aggreed the Survival tin was and is a military concept / invention

seem to rememeber
you live out of your Bergan
you fight out of your webbing
you Survive out of your jkt pockets

you E&E with what ever you can shove up your ****

Dunnno if it still works this way but dumping bergans in a RV and going off for an attack / ambush etc was the way you did it and if you couldnt get back to pick em up you had your webbing and pocketses


your less likely in a volentary bushcraft situation to get separated from your kit etc and probably carry a small bag/side pocket etc if you did
as you dont have to worry bout Guns and ammo radios and rockets etc

the move from Survival to bushcraft has broght the tin with it i guess

ATB

Duncan

 

[hogstable]

I agree wholeheartedly, nn that line of work the use of daysacks / belt order / bergan works very well . The risk of being separated from the bergan for prolonged periods is likely to happen and has happened to me on several occaisons, neither my fault. One was in a Welsh wood in the pouring rain in winter, another time was far more comfy and involved hanging around a Burco waiting for a minibus to return from Catterick. I am suprised that they do not issue an emergency survival bag for that reason and insist it is held in the belt order. Some SOPs forbid comfy kit in the daysacks, Brecon kit packing wants a Goretx jkt in a webbing pouch.


But if it was that much of a problem soldiers would be dying of exposure all over the place? Also they have quite a lot of back in terms of the people looking after them.

IIRC from my mate, who went to Norway with the Royal marines for his basic arctic course, the training in staying out they are given is first of all with a bergan, next level of training is with belt order (may include daysack) and final level is pockets.

Come to think of it that kind of works as a rough idea for the difference between camping, bushcraft and survival for me - not wishing to start off a big debate !!

I often now find myself separated from my Bergan whilst bushcrafting (now referred to as camping in the woods) - my friend and I dump Bergans in the wood, make our way to the local town, have quite a few drinks and walk back to the woods with a takeaway. Amazing how it focuses your micro nav when you know you have to find one certain tree in a big wood. Also as we have one daysack between us it makes us think about what goes into that in case the micr nav aint as good as it needs to be.

 

[Steve M]

So, rather than buy a survival kit, I would concentrate resources on decent boots and decent shell clothing. I would not skimp on navigational equipment either.

I agree. Good clothing is very very important. This counts if you're driving too.

Most people will prepare for the current conditions. It's changes that they don't.

Basic Nav and First aid training are a must and adequate preparation for and anticipation of changing weather conditions.

It's better not to get into a survival situation than to cope with one.

 

[wentworth]

Down is more likely to lose its 'loft' (ability to trap air by puffing out) than sythetic if stored compressed, but it would still be better than nothing. For the UK - and my budget - I would opt for a synthetic jacket of some description.

Really interesting post regarding Mors, thanks.

But even when left compressed, down still retains more of it's loft than synthetic, when you eventually drag them out.
Synthetics are getting lighter, but their loft durability still leaves a lot to be desired. Climashield Combat is apparently the best for keeping loft after numerous stuffings, but still not on par with down.

 

[wingstoo]

The "survival tin" was created and further developed by John "Lofty" Wiseman for use in hostile environments, not for civvies (just like it says on the Yorkie slabs) but for SAS operatives on operations at home and abroad.

I would say it helps a soldier to survive whilst awaiting extraction if they have had to dump a lot of their normal operational kit.

It might get them to their 1st RV, or maybe their 2nd RV, that's about it.

He still carries his whenever he leaves the house

 

[Steve M]

The Survival Kit dates back to at least World War II. Lofty developed them further and popularised them through the SAS Survival Handbook.

I would say that a survival kit would assist a soldier with survival training to last as long as they need to. In my experience, most soldiers have plenty of determination, but not a lot of specific survival skills. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it was only the special forces and airforce who were given specific survival training at one time.

Sorry that might sound glib, so if your experience is to the counter, then please expand.

 

[wingstoo]

You're probably right about the wartime beginnings.

As Lofty was the head of survival traing for the SAS and probably all the Special Forces in the UK it was probably training aimed at the specialist who worked in areas that "normal" soldiers don't go to. As most SF teams work in groups of four or eight, rather than sections of 20 or more it makes sense that they get more specific training as would Air Force pilots and air crew.

Having the compact kit gives them extra bit of kit that is easily carried and concealed.

 

[hogstable]

I think the philosophy and phrase used is 'prone to capture' but I may be mistaken. So SF and aircrew will necessarily spend a lot of time 'behind the lines' and therefore prone to capture.

Because of this they place the highest emphasis on survival / combat survival skills and have issued kits and compulsary training. Airborne troops too in the traditional airborne roles are dropped behind the lines are therefore also 'prone to capture' although don't have the same level of formal training in their program. I believe the SF training is the Combat Survival Instructor course which is also open to other soldiers but they have to bid to get on it, the main criteria being the prone to capture' clause. So for some eg SF it is mandatory, others like Recce soldiers and airborne have a higher priority and if you are further away from that clause, eg clerk in a logistics support brigade (no disrespect intended) they would have a lower priority to get on the course.

Some units will do survival training themselves and often it is for the self development of people, eg self confidence and self reliance as well as for the surviving / evasion aspect.

However traditional front lines are no longer as relevant so more if not most troops are now prone to capture, eg Royal Irish soldiers captured in Sierra Leone and the 2 Royal Engineers who were executed during the Iraq invasion. The Army has recognised this and now looks at training soldiers for different levels of Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape. I've seen the Level 1 video and it is pretty well done. No specifics but it is a very good common sense introduction. Ask for advice, work out what you need to carry, very simple level, priorities of survival etc.

Then there wil be a package for the other higher levels which I don't know about but you could imagine how it would perhaps fit together and survival kits contents etc.I would like to add that I have not attended any survival courses.

 

[Steve M]

You're probably right about the wartime beginnings.

I AM right about it

As Lofty was the head of survival traing for the SAS and probably all the Special Forces in the UK it was probably training aimed at the specialist who worked in areas that "normal" soldiers don't go to. As most SF teams work in groups of four or eight, rather than sections of 20 or more it makes sense that they get more specific training as would Air Force pilots and air crew.

I think the philosophy and phrase used is 'prone to capture' but I may be mistaken. So SF and aircrew will necessarily spend a lot of time 'behind the lines' and therefore prone to capture.

That certainly seems to be the consensus. From a budgetory perspective, those would be the people most likely to need them and be carrying less general kit when they find themselves there. Eject eject!

Some units will do survival training themselves and often it is for the self development of people, eg self confidence and self reliance as well as for the surviving / evasion aspect.

We have some regular army soldiers come to us for training with their "adventure" budget. The feedback at the end is that they feel like it was useful and applicable.

I would like to add that I have not attended any survival courses.

I would like to add that I work for the same company Lofty does

 

[wingstoo]

But Lofty retired years ago, he does do a bit for Tru way these days, so do you work for themor Chris Caine

 

[Steve M]

Lofty still does talks and still does the induction for international and professional courses. He also starred in the DVD and opened the shop. No, he's not a full timer instructor, but he's not retired. And no, I don't work for Chris!!!

I'm intrigued to know if he still carries his kit whenever he leaves the home. I'll ask him next time I speak to him

 

[magicaldr]

I have one of Lofty based kits, same as on the DVD he did which I also have and enjoy. It lives wrapped in a plastic bag (seemed sensible addition as water collector) in the small inner pocket of my main coat. Next to my gloves (nirolex) and silver blanket. Day I got it I stripped it out, added a few extra items and made sure I was comfortable with what was in there.

Ok so the gloves and blanket have seen more action than the tin, RTA's (or whatever they call them now) and various other messy situations I seem to arrive first on scene at. Small first aid kit has pretty much dried up as an every day carry, I use my hands and gloves for anything serious, and have a couple of plasters for everything else. However the tin does add a layer of security (not to mention said plasters) and my main car kit not normally far away.

I don't smoke, so no lighter day to day. I don't have a every day carry knife (although considering one), only things always with me at the moment are my keys (with torch, 99p from tesco and excellent) and my coat with its little pack.

Why would I need it? Well for survival not yet, but as Lofty says in his DVD the sewing kit saved me more than once. I was stuck for 5 hours underground coming home from the office when the tube died and the torch was a great morale booster as the battery lights started to die on the train. Its just snowed, and peeps got stuck in cars all over the place. Yes you should have all sorts of toys in your 'car kit', but when travelling with a business colleague they may not be prepared. Then the ability to get a fire going may well save your life.

Even in the walking scenario, fall down a hillside and break something. Mobile if its working, great. However the whistle will attract attention and guide peeps in, even the fire starting stuff may help you make a smoke signal with what's around you, and the lid is your heliograph. As the heli guy said, phone is great if you can describe your location, otherwise you need to stand out somehow.

Yes is pointless when you have your big car kit, you pack with all your toys, the weathers good, and you have planned properly. I think the time it will save you is when you are not expecting it to go wrong, you forgot your mobile, it was just a quick walk on the moors, the weather changed, you fell.

Hindsight is great, and you can kick yourself at all the mistakes you made to get where you now are. I am sure there will be more than one, and at least one totally unfair thing that's happened. That's the time when that small pocket kit will save you, so hopefully you will never need it, but while its light, small, and I dont notice the weight in my jacket its staying, even in the UK with our feeling it cant "really" go wrong.

 

[Hetzen]

I think it has more to do with what ever you face on a day to day basis. How ever menial it may be and not expected. I think the question should be, what could I do if...

...and that in itself is the point.

Like others have said, that is the mental exercise. Sure I could phone the RAC. But if all I need is a little duct tape, or a little twisted copper wire, or some dental floss to stitch, or what ever to get a temporary fix to a problem, then it's solved a problem with basic stuff and a little knowledge.

Take getting stuck slipped into a ditch in these recent conditions. How many cars have some form of twine to use the footwell mats as a means to get some traction, and yet not lose that asset afterwards?

I've had a PSK for a while now, but I don't really look at it as that. I see it as a minimul tool kit that can solve problems, which includes a basic first aid, multitool, even headaches, wrapped up in some paracord. In as small a space that it needs.

I've dipped into it more times than I thought I would.

I'm sure it all has it's roots in military E&E situations, and no I wouldn't want to live off one. But it is a container of tricks that can sort stuff out. And that is what, for me, is what it's all about.

 

[johnboy]

have fond memories of the 'BCB SAS Combat Survival Tin'

Eagerly trekking up Fore Street in Exeter having caught the train in from Lympstone straight into Moorland Rambler for a survival tin and some Oirtleib drybags and a cheap fleece from the seconds rack then trying to convince Lionel to give you a 10% discount....

Practicality wise even after a few mods they were a bit of a laugh... A tin of kit in your smock pocket for use in a Combat Survival situation or on E+E is one thing and for 90% of squaddies it's a bit of Ally kit in reality. Helping you survive in the 'wilds' of Britain is another entirely. For 99.9% of the time the kit in your daysack is your survival kit as others have eloquently pointed out.

So while I have a great deal of respect for Lofty and am enthralled at the knowlege and experience he has. I understand that Daywalking on Dartmoor or the High Peak is a totally different thing that being in an operational environment in Borneo for several months.

 

[Steve M]

I've dipped into it more times than I thought I would.

It's a bit of a psychological hurdle; actually using it. I remember whan I'd had mine a little while, I ripped a pocket. It took me a while to get on with fixing it using the kit because I didn't want to use the contents "in case I really needed it".

 

[johnboy]

It's a bit of a psychological hurdle; actually using it. I remember whan I'd had mine a little while, I ripped a pocket. It took me a while to get on with fixing it using the kit because I didn't want to use the contents "in case I really needed it".

So do you actually carry it 24/7 365?