Would it work, or am i soooo wrong??

[Elessar]

I have an idea that I’d like to implement after I have had some thoughts about it from you guys and gals......here it is:

Native Northern peoples such as Sámi and Inuit use skin for clothing (like a lot of native people) the main ones that I have been told about are Reindeer and Elk.... the fur of these two animals is very warm as the hairs in the skin are hollow and trap warm air in and around them, thus making them warm enough to help Northern peoples survive in the depths of artic winters.

why not, use this information and line a bivi-bag with reindeer or elk skins creating a warm and fairly water resistant sleeping system that in conjunction with a good shelter and a fire (like the northern peoples) make a very warm combination (perhaps even warm enough to withstand even the most chilly conditions in the UK)......

Am I talking sense or am I being a naïve buffoon???

Any thoughts from all you wise peoples are greatly appreciated......maybe somebody has tried it before......

J

 

[British Red]

I suspect weight and bulk would be the issue. Such a bag I reckon would be at least 70 litres in size when packed down.

Nice idea for car camping but you'd be looking at 4 reindeer skins and it would be bulky as all get out.

Fun project though

Red

 

[John Fenna]

Both Scott and Shacklton used Reindeer hide sleeping bags in the Antarctic....the first recorded use of British made hollow fibre sleeping bags...

 

[-Switch-]

You're talking sense. I'm not sure if anyone here has tried it but there's no reason why that wouldn't work.
But that would be one very bulky and heavy sleeping system

 

[-Switch-]

I really do need to type faster

 

[Elessar]

if thats so, how did northern peoples manage to get around and not freeze to death, as they wouldn't be carrying anymore than a sleeping system a bit of food and edged tools or is that enough for those peoples.....??

 

[British Red]

The Sami don't "backpack" as such. When you see film of them moving camp there are many sledges and draught beasts involved. Hence my comment on "car camping". I suspect "Reindeer sled camping" is tricky round here but same principle

Red

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

I have an idea that I’d like to implement after I have had some thoughts about it from you guys and gals......here it is:

Native Northern peoples such as Sámi and Inuit use skin for clothing (like a lot of native people) the main ones that I have been told about are Reindeer and Elk.... the fur of these two animals is very warm as the hairs in the skin are hollow and trap warm air in and around them, thus making them warm enough to help Northern peoples survive in the depths of artic winters.

why not, use this information and line a bivi-bag with reindeer or elk skins creating a warm and fairly water resistant sleeping system that in conjunction with a good shelter and a fire (like the northern peoples) make a very warm combination (perhaps even warm enough to withstand even the most chilly conditions in the UK)......

Am I talking sense or am I being a naïve buffoon???

Any thoughts from all you wise peoples are greatly appreciated......maybe somebody has tried it before......

J

You're definately not naive. Mors Kochanski suggested something somewhat similar to that, in his book "Bushcraft", when he was talking about rabbit fur robes.

From experience with deer hair, there is one issue.. and that issue is, the very hairs you want.

What I mean by that, is the hollow hairs are also very brittle. Rub them the wrong way, or even the right way, and quite a few fall out, or break off. Little by little, bald patches occur, and the hair gets all through your hair, your clothes, your mouth, your food, everything. I slept on deerskins long enough in a tipi one winter, to learn this. Moose hair and elk hair do it as well. I was also told that reindeer hair and caribou hair will also do it. Why then do northern cultures make hair-on deerskin clothes? Well out of neccessity. It's better to be uncomfortable, than dead.

However, if you took that hollow hair.. or another material like it (goose down, cattail fluff), and put it between two sheets of fabric, and quilt it.. then you have your hollow air space, and your comfort.. you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. That is basically what all sleeping bags are. Two sheets, with an insulative material in between it.

 

[sharp88]

Tom Brown jr said in one of his books that he used to wrap himself in a Bison skin. It would be kool if there was the affordable resources here to make a Buffalo bivvi.

You'd need alot of rabbits to make a rabbit skin cover. Although Iv seen it on a website somewhere, where they kinda cut the rabbit skins into large strips, sewed them together and soughta platted them into a blanket, with fur on the inside and out.

 

[sharp88]

Here tis http://www.primitiveways.com/rabbit_skin_blanket.html not quite what I said, but I think its kool.

 

[Toddy]

We're taught that the Vikings used sealskin sleeping bags.
No idea how effective they are......

Wayland ?????

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

Hmmmm Wayland would work but I still think seal would be better.........

 

[Mike Ameling]

Animal skins with the hair on were used out of necessity. Most native peoples quickly changed over to wool blankets when they had access to them - for all the previously stated reasons - weight, size/bulk, shedding. Plus, they replaced them as needed - at least once every year. It was not a long-term investment. A "fresh" sleeping skin was a short hunt and a little work away.

I have a friend that has made several of those rabbit skin blankets. Each took between 70 and 100 hides! And the finished size was pretty small - around 60 by 70 inches.

Each hide was cut in a spiral manner to get a long strip. Those stripes were then "woven" together to form the blanket - standard warp/over/under weaving. But each strip was also twisted before it was used - so you had hair all the way around each strip. The weaving was also done pretty loosely. You are trying to create lots of "dead air space" within the rabbit skin blanket to insulate you.

They do work great. There are accounts of Indians rolling up in a rabbit skin blanket, and laying right down onto the ice of a lake to sleep - in temps of -20 degrees (F) and below! But do keep in mind that those Indians were also much more acclimated to the cold outdoors than most other people.

My buddy Karl also mentioned that the blankets do shed a lot, but not quite as bad as a deer/elk hide. The are also mildly fragile. Rabbit skins are not known for their strength. Also keep in mind that they were only used for one winter season. New ones were made for the next winter.

Sleeping in a buffalo robe works great, and are a very comfy layer between you and the ground. But they work great because of all that fluffy/curly hair - which traps all that "dead air" for insulation. But they are also VERY HEAVY to sleep under! All that "leather", plus all that hair, adds up to a lot of weight when compared to anything else you might have used.

Travel with animal hide bedding was done when necessary, but pack animals and sleds were used as needed. You just don't carry all that weight unless you really need to move elsewhere. That's also why the Indians seldom traveled in winter. In the fall, they moved to their "winter campgrounds", and then pretty much just stayed there until spring. Hunting parties did go out as needed, but traveled very light, and tried to get back as soon as they could. Of course, pack animals helped with any hauling required.

Good thoughts, but only really usable in a fairly settled long-term camp - not for traveling.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. I haven't packed along hair-on hides for sleeping in years. Too much weight/bulk when compared to just including an extra wool blanket or two.

 

[Matt Weir]

Fantastic thread folks - very insightful

 

[w00dsmoke]

I studied social anthropology (MA HONS) and specilised in hunter gatherer societies. Much of our reading was about the innuit. And it's fantastic to see how people are looking at traditional ways of being in different environments to inspire and guide their own practice. :You_Rock_

It's interesting to read about the use of skins as sleeping bags and everyone has more or less presented the facts surrounding their use. An alternative that I have used very successfully is to use artificial pile (fibre pile) and a very cheap source of this is mattress toppers (around £5-8 for a king size cover). Buffalo the clothing and sleeping bag company use the same stuff except they sew on a pertex windproof layer on the outside.I have hand sewn sleeping bag liners for my sleeping bags with this fabric and the warmth increase is unbelievable, there is no reason why one could not make a sleep system with this and cover it in a bivi bag. It's instantly warm to touch and you feel warmer in it as it appears to heat up quicker than say holofibre.

The other alternative that I use alot particulalry in my tipi is a huge faux fur (artificial wold skin throw). Ok they are expensive compared to say a surplus sleeping bag (around £50 for a good one) and you need to keep them cleanish as they can only be dry cleaned but again the warmth is amazing esp with the fur side down and they are warm when wet too. (incidently, I hate taking my reindeer skin camping... hair every where, gets damp after a few days...)

In summary what we could do is use the traditional knowledge and apply it with modern materials and use this to our advantage...and thinking out the box we can do it cheaper than we think!

 

[robin wood]

' how did northern peoples manage to get around and not freeze to death, as they wouldn't be carrying anymore than a sleeping system"

Now I don't know and I am guessing here but It seams daft to me in those extremes to take off one perfectly good warm weatherproof fur coating and climb into another one at night (if we are talking about travelling away from home and carrying all kit that is). I remember reading Dervla Murphy travel books that when folk in the high Himalaya and the high Andes put their winter clothes on they kept them on until spring. The clothing is designed to let air pass through and perspiration out.

When my father in law was mountaineering in the Himalayas he told me that the Sherpas carried no tents for themselves or blankets, at night they put a ground sheet down and all lay together in a big pile on it fully clothed. When temperatures plummeted those in the middle of the pile were warm but squashed those on the outside cold, they rotated regularly through the night.

 

[Elessar]

Okay so what I have gather from you guys so far is that:

1. Yes, what I said could work, only it would be absolutely huge, nigh on impossible to lug around with you.

2. Wool is almost as good, so native people switched to that every so often

3. Its not just reindeer and elk, but pretty much all furs that work....i.e. sheep.

4. Not all native people use a 'sleeping bag' as such but other methods


Okay this is all starting to get a little bit clearer now; I’m soaking all this info up as fast as you guys present it. But if that is the case....

(And I know I’m being a tad stubborn and I remember all the comments about this the last time I mentioned it)

....but if you had the right skills and knowledge, and had become sufficiently acclimatized to the weather, then it would be possible to have a sleeping system that consisted of nothing more than two woollen blankets and with good use of shelter and fire, survive in as much comfort as if you were using a decent tent and a 4 season sleeping-system.........

 

[w00dsmoke]

survive in as much comfort as if you were using a decent tent and a 4 season sleeping-system.........

I'd like to see you try...

Even in an igloo bud with two wool blankets and seal oil lamps, you will be freezing, you may not die but you are not going to be comfortable!

 

[big_swede]

Woodsmoke, I have to say, on the contrary, in an igloo you are very comfortable, the are insulated and very easy to get totally windproof. With two people it is very common to get plus degrees inside (which you obviously don't want). I chose the igloo or snow cave over mountain tent any given day.

And Elessar, I can only tell you what I know about the samis. They didn't camp outside as such in winter time. It is only in modern times that the phenomenon 'capming' has evolved. That said they still spent time outside, but usually slept in lavvos, kåtas or gammes. When they were forced to sleep without enclosed shelters the relied on different fire configurations. One commonly spoken of is called nuorrja (or something, viking knows) which is a really cool version of the paralell lay log fire. Another version they used was to make a thick layer of ember and covering up with moss and then sleeping on the warm moss. If the ember layer was good enough, it would last the night through.

I don't see the need of a 4-seaseon sleeping system for native or primitive people, since they could use fires as they pleased. An open properly built lean-to with a log fire is a LOT easier on the back than 4 reindeer hides.

 

[w00dsmoke]

Woodsmoke, I have to say, on the contrary, in an igloo you are very comfortable, the are insulated and very easy to get totally windproof. With two people it is very common to get plus degrees inside (which you obviously don't want). I chose the igloo or snow cave over mountain tent any given day.

.

With only oil lamps you will be freezing where the body touches uninsulated snow for any length of time and not be comfortable in any way whatsoever with only 2 blankets! All your body heat would rapidly dissapear into the snow underneath you and hypothermia will surely be the end result.

Certaianly with an insulated ground pad and skins you could be comfortable, hence the innuit slept semi naked much of the time, but if you only had 2 blankets...hhhmmmm go try and see, it's not going to be comfortable in any way shape or form!