Worst case scenario

[MountainGoat]

Pretty poor advice even in jest

Not at all. My position is one of realism.

You can buy all the equipment under the sun, whether it be first-aid, the latest waterproofs etc - but the likelihood is someone will simply overpower you and take what you have.

If there's any doubt to this, look at any war-torn country - or ask someone what happens on the ground during times of lawlessness.

The best thing to have is knowledge, not a check-list of gear.

If society collapses, you'll likely be attacked. There won't be idylls consisting of certain members of society with similar views on utopia.

Rape, pillage & murder will be flavour of the month in the scenario mentioned.

- EDIT - In the specific scenario you mention (i.e. terror attack), you'll be near shops. So my point stands RE carrying some change.

In the greater scenario (i.e. societal collapse), my point also stands.

 

[TeeDee]

Not at all. My position is one of realism.

You can buy all the equipment under the sun, whether it be first-aid, the latest waterproofs etc - but the likelihood is someone will simply overpower you and take what you have.

If there's any doubt to this, look at any war-torn country - or ask someone what happens on the ground during times of lawlessness.

The best thing to have is knowledge, not a check-list of gear.

If society collapses, you'll likely be attacked. There won't be idylls consisting of certain members of society with similar views on utopia.

Rape, pillage & murder will be flavour of the month in the scenario mentioned.

- EDIT - In the specific scenario you mention (i.e. terror attack), you'll be near shops. So my point stands RE carrying some change.

In the greater scenario (i.e. societal collapse), my point also stands.

Surely the VERY best thing to have is the Knowledge AND the Kit/Provisions.

 

[MountainGoat]

Surely the VERY best thing to have is the Knowledge AND the Kit/Provisions.

Not necessarily.

PS I'm trying to help by giving an honest, objective answer. I realise it isn't what is desired to be heard as what it seems is desired to be heard is a list of equipment and discussions regarding specifics of each piece of kit, but this doesn't change the fact that a £20 note in the situation you mention will suffice, as you'll be near a shop/supermarket anyway.

RE the broader, more generalised scenario: assuming you're in the UK and society collapses, you'll likely be slaughtered.

If the UK was less secular, this wouldn't necessarily be the case. But that's a different conversation for another day.

Again - I'm trying to help you. Just carry some money.

 

[Madriverrob]

Scenarios used as example were terror attacks such as Bataclan , Manchester Arena bombing and a hypothetical attack during an underground journey , the purpose of the kit was to sustain life in the initial aftermath and to attract attention when rescue and emergency services arrive . I doubt very much I'd be nipping to the shop for a bandage and a drink !
Nor was I suggesting my kit would enable me to survive the collapse of society or a zombie apocalypse! I have first aid training and posted my kit to prompt debate about immediate care following an incident that might leave me (or others) incapacitated , disorientated and awaiting rescue .

Thanks for all the comments, food for thought eh ?

 

[MountainGoat]

Scenarios used as example were terror attacks such as Bataclan , Manchester Arena bombing and a hypothetical attack during an underground journey , the purpose of the kit was to sustain life in the initial aftermath and to attract attention when rescue and emergency services arrive . I doubt very much I'd be nipping to the shop for a bandage and a drink !
Nor was I suggesting my kit would enable me to survive the collapse of society orca zombie apocalypse! I have firstvaid trading and posted my kit to prompt debate about immediate care following an incident that might leave me (or others) incapacitated , disorientated and awaiting rescue .

Thanks for all the comments, food for thought eh ?

You wouldn't need to attract attention if there's been a terrorist attack.

Knowledge plus kit sustains life - not kit without knowledge. Those with knowledge require less kit as they know how to improvise.

This can be seen throughout the 'prepper' world. I'd rather meet a doctor with a waterbottle and a roll of tape than a keen first-aider with a tourniquet and no experience other than a few YT videos and one or two first-aid courses. The 'prepper' is highly dangerous in this scenario.

First-aiders shouldn't play doctor.

 

[Trotsky]

Not at all. My position is one of realism.

You can buy all the equipment under the sun, whether it be first-aid, the latest waterproofs etc - but the likelihood is someone will simply overpower you and take what you have.

If there's any doubt to this, look at any war-torn country - or ask someone what happens on the ground during times of lawlessness.

The best thing to have is knowledge, not a check-list of gear.

If society collapses, you'll likely be attacked. There won't be idylls consisting of certain members of society with similar views on utopia.

Rape, pillage & murder will be flavour of the month in the scenario mentioned.

- EDIT - In the specific scenario you mention (i.e. terror attack), you'll be near shops. So my point stands RE carrying some change.

In the greater scenario (i.e. societal collapse), my point also stands.

In the winter of 2010/2011 there were full blown fist fights taking place on the backs of lorries at the local Tesco over loaves of bread. We had probably 18 inches of snow and the fabric of society was already straining, had it been something more serious I have little doubt it would have instead been a knife fight or some such and this is a nice town! By and large when the proverbial hits the fan it's every man for himself (and for his family.) But we're getting into prepping talk here really and this isn't quite that sort of community.

 

[MountainGoat]

In the winter of 2010/2011 there were full blown fist fights taking place on the backs of lorries at the local Tesco over loaves of bread. We had probably 18 inches of snow and the fabric of society was already straining, had it been something more serious I have little doubt it would have instead been a knife fight or some such and this is a nice town! By and large when the proverbial hits the fan it's every man for himself (and for his family.) But we're getting into prepping talk here really and this isn't quite that sort of community.

Yes, quite!

That's my point RE things falling apart very quickly.

In the UK - at least in the non-muslim community - people would be killing each other. I've seen this happen in certain parts of Africa.

The only places I've been where groups stick together/work as a unit during collapse are places where religion underpins the culture. If there's a mix i.e. groups within non-groups, the groups will attack & overpower the individuals.

 

[Nomad64]

However, instead of focussing on the "worst case scenario" which can lead those of a more excitable disposition to start thinking about battling zombies and/or jihadists, a nuclear holocaust or other end of days scenarios, surely it is better to focus on realistic scenarios that are likely to happen.

Well it took a while but we eventually got from sensible EDC first aid and emergency items to pr£pping for the break down of society and inter-communal violence!

As for hunting muntjac - depends on where you live it can be hard work not running over the damn things. My mother's garden in Somerset is constantly being invaded by the things, to the extent that she has recently put up an electric fence to keep them out. On the other hand, she might be a closet pre£pper (she recently disclosed that she had been designated as fire officer as part of our village's 1970s civil defence precautions and had the old WW2 surplus stirrup pump to prove it!) and the fence is to keep neighbours out! :AR15firin

There are plenty of other forums out there on the web to discuss paranoid fantasies.

 

[MountainGoat]

The paranoid fantasy is thinking a few plasters and an alcohol wipe will make a difference during a terrorist attack.

There's a lot of negative talk on this thread RE the advice I posted i.e. in an urban environment, a £20 note is sufficient.

Elaboration on a thread titled 'worst case scenario' shouldn't be classed as thread hijacking - especially given a sufficient answer to the OP was given i.e. carry some money.

I have the feeling what is desired on threads such as this is a conversation more than an answer, and when an answer is given it is rejected if it doesn't fit the 'party line' - even if it is the best answer.

Walking down Swindon high street with a first aid kit is borderline waltism, with a hint of incompetence.

To the OP - of course, first-aid knowledge is, in certain instances, useful. But if you're faced with a terrorist attack, a few plasters until the medics get there isn't going to make much of a difference. And there's every chance you may use some of the more advanced equipment wrong (tourniquets etc) - or be so desperate to 'try it out' that you'd try something you are completely and utterly incompetent for. And that isn't an insult - we all have differences & limits.

Notwithstanding: if you were to see someone with their leg hanging off you'd likely go into shock and be as useful as the victims themselves.

 

[Corso]

Best answer lol

your answers are getting the scorn they deserve

 

[Tonyuk]

There's nothing wrong with carrying a bit of first aid kit on your person at times, absolutely nothing walting about it. If you look at the kit its extremely basic, and if a wound is bad enough to need a tourniquet on then it needs to be put on asap. No point in messing about with "Just wait for the medics and suck it up" they'll be dead within minutes with that attitude.

Better to put something on to stem the flow of blood to the limb than wait, even if you don't put it on perfectly its far better than nothing. If you think cat tourniquets are always put on perfectly your dreaming and yet they still work when required.

If its a blast in the tube then i can pretty much guarantee you wont be treating anything until you get outside, which you'd better do quickly since the smoke wont be dissipating for some time, eventually causing you to suffocate more than likely. Hence why it's important to be fit and be the first out before proper panic ensues.

Tonyuk

 

[C_Claycomb]

Three nut cases with knives = terrorist attack. You have sensibly hidden and when you pop back onto the street there is someone with a hole in them pouring claret on the street. Yes, you can improvise a bandage, but a shell dressing and quick clot is going to do more than £20 and running off to search for the nearest Boots...then trying to figure out where they have stocked their first aid stuff...or towels, or loads of cotton wool. Bummer, no one is at the till to take payment because there are guys with knives on the loose...

You are riding the London underground. Some nut on the train in front of you sets off a bomb and now you and everyone else is stuck in the dark awaiting rescue...or in need of walking to the nearest platform. A good light and maybe a dust mask, water and maybe a snack are going to do you more good than a £20 note...'cause you are stuck on a bloomin train in a tunnel 30m below ground.

Money goes a long way, and I don't dispute comments about training, or how people may react badly to traumatic sights, but there are times when having stuff on hand beats having money. Imagine if everyone carried a kit like that, vs everyone just having money.

Anyway, the OP may have said "worst case" but their first post was pretty clear what kind of situation they were considering, so can we please keep on track with that, and not wander off into personal versions of worst-case-society-break-down? MountainGoat, that means you, please.

Not sure about the heavy wound dressings. While they could be handy in the aftermath of an attack (assuming you have the knowledge and temperament to use them), the chances are that they will be carried around, unused, so long that the wrappers fall apart from old age!

I like Nigeltm's list pretty well. A friend of mine was also caught up in that 7/7/2005 bombing and had a very long walk from Brunswick Square home, south of the Thames. Lots of people stuck on tube trains then.

 

[Nomad64]

The paranoid fantasy is thinking a few plasters and an alcohol wipe will make a difference during a terrorist attack.

There's a lot of negative talk on this thread RE the advice I posted i.e. in an urban environment, a £20 note is sufficient.

Elaboration on a thread titled 'worst case scenario' shouldn't be classed as thread hijacking - especially given a sufficient answer to the OP was given i.e. carry some money.

I have the feeling what is desired on threads such as this is a conversation more than an answer, and when an answer is given it is rejected if it doesn't fit the 'party line' - even if it is the best answer.

Walking down Swindon high street with a first aid kit is borderline waltism, with a hint of incompetence.

To the OP - of course, first-aid knowledge is, in certain instances, useful. But if you're faced with a terrorist attack, a few plasters until the medics get there isn't going to make much of a difference. And there's every chance you may use some of the more advanced equipment wrong (tourniquets etc) - or be so desperate to 'try it out' that you'd try something you are completely and utterly incompetent for. And that isn't an insult - we all have differences & limits.

Notwithstanding: if you were to see someone with their leg hanging off you'd likely go into shock and be as useful as the victims themselves.

The OP was a bit naive in his choice of thread title but if his concerns about recent security issues have prompted him to think about sensible stuff to carry and skills to acquire which are likely to be useful in a variety of real world situations then that is no bad thing.

The scale might be different but the aftermath of a terrorist attack is likely to leave casualties with the same range of potentially life threatening injuries that could be encountered after an RTA, fire, gas explosion, fight in a pub etc.

Having the basic skills and confidence to assess and manage the scene, assess injuries, provide a coherent info via a 999 call and perform basic first aid by where appropriate; stopping bleeding, maintaining airways and performing CPR or just looking after the walking wounded on the periphery of a major incident while observing the rule of "do no harm" before handing over to professional paramedics, is not IMHO "waltism".

As others have suggested, my experience of being in a big city when a bomb goes off (or just more mundane transport strikes or problems) is a long walk home via unfamiliar routes so a paper A-Z and Compeed might be useful additions or something to spend your emergency £20 on.

 

[Corso]

Indeed sensible shoes and a bottle of water were the things I missed the day 7/7 happened. I knew my route so an A-Z wasn't needed but since then when I'm around unfamiliar parts of London I carry one.

 

[Countryman]

Preparedness falls under risk management. First of all you weigh up the likelihood of the problem occurring, then you weigh up the level of disruption or damage likely as an outcome.

In your own mind you have to work out what level of mitigation of this risk and outcome is appropriate to your concern. You then plan, acquire, train and practice your mitigations.

I don't carry a First Aid Kit but I have a Mountain Leaders First Aid Kit with some personal touches in my car and a CPR face mask separate to grab. Horrific things have been known to happen (especially in Swindon &#128536

As a First Aid trainer I know I might dive in to help in a situation. A £20 note won't stop a bleed very effectively!

However everything in proportion. If you carry a handbag or knapsack to work then why not if it gives you comfort.

Your motives are to help others or not by lack of action make yourself a casualty. My kind of preparedness!

Planning which locations you will attack to stockpile resources in the event of Polar Shift not my kind of prepping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nigeltm]

You wouldn't need to attract attention if there's been a terrorist attack.

First-aiders shouldn't play doctor.

First aider VS doctor?
The only doctor I want to see in these scenarios is an experienced A&E or anaesthetics consultant. They will have an understanding of trauma situations.

The most dangerous thing in these circumstances is a well meaning GP, who is out of their depth. The public will look to them to take charge but it may have been 20 years since they last did a rotation in A&E. They would not be able to cope and the casualty's outcome is likely to be worse, or even fatal.

A well trained first aider is better prepared for trauma than most doctors. While First Aid At Work is fairly basic it still covers BLS, simple wound management and the like. I'd even rather see a St John's Ambulance bod than a doctor!

As for playing doctor, I am a first aider with the training to use (but not limited to) :
- tourniquet
- OP and NP airways
- traction splints
- vacuum mattress
- scoop stretcher
- neck braces
- controlled drugs (Morphine and Midazolam)
- entenox
- O2
I have managed a number of casualty situations. These have included a mass casualty incident following a land-rover crash in a country park.

Still prefer a doctor over a first aider?

Attracting attention?
You're sat at your desk and a car bomb (old fashioned term for a VIED for all of our younger members ) goes pop outside your window. You're lucky enough 5o survive the blast but are trapped in the rubble. In this scenario I certainly would want to attract attention. It can happen and I have a slim but loud metal whistle on my keyring. A keyring which is in my pocket at all times. You only need one fire alarm to go off when your car key is in you jacket at your desk to realise it's a good idea to keep your keys with you!

 

[Old Bones]

Still prefer a doctor over a first aider?

Yes

Even a GP will have gone to medical school for at least 4 years, followed up by 3 years of training to become a GP. They will probably have done rotations during their training on the wards, including A & E, and have to keep up with the journals, refresher courses, extra exams, etc.

I did a first aid course last year - useful, but my medic friends know vastly more than me.

 

[MountainGoat]

Three nut cases with knives = terrorist attack. You have sensibly hidden and when you pop back onto the street there is someone with a hole in them pouring claret on the street. Yes, you can improvise a bandage, but a shell dressing and quick clot is going to do more than £20 and running off to search for the nearest Boots...then trying to figure out where they have stocked their first aid stuff...or towels, or loads of cotton wool. Bummer, no one is at the till to take payment because there are guys with knives on the loose...

Ergo you could just pick up stuff in the shop, and if seen on CCTV leaving with unpaid goods you can explain afterwards what it was for.

Genuine question: who here has dealt with a stab wound in a real-world situation?

You are riding the London underground. Some nut on the train in front of you sets off a bomb and now you and everyone else is stuck in the dark awaiting rescue...or in need of walking to the nearest platform. A good light and maybe a dust mask, water and maybe a snack are going to do you more good than a £20 note...'cause you are stuck on a bloomin train in a tunnel 30m below ground.

1) Pull your top over your mouth/nose
2) You'll likely have a phone if it's urban. This means you'll have a torch.

Money goes a long way, and I don't dispute comments about training, or how people may react badly to traumatic sights, but there are times when having stuff on hand beats having money. Imagine if everyone carried a kit like that, vs everyone just having money.

We'd have people cutting holes in our throats to try the latest piece of kit the second we bend over to tie our shoelaces.

Anyway, the OP may have said "worst case" but their first post was pretty clear what kind of situation they were considering, so can we please keep on track with that, and not wander off into personal versions of worst-case-society-break-down? MountainGoat, that means you, please.

Of course RE expanding the thread. However, my advice is sound.

I like Nigeltm's list pretty well. A friend of mine was also caught up in that 7/7/2005 bombing and had a very long walk from Brunswick Square home, south of the Thames. Lots of people stuck on tube trains then.

Shame. If he had £20 he could have got a taxi home

 

[MountainGoat]

Yes

Even a GP will have gone to medical school for at least 4 years, followed up by 3 years of training to become a GP. They will probably have done rotations during their training on the wards, including A & E, and have to keep up with the journals, refresher courses, extra exams, etc.

I did a first aid course last year - useful, but my medic friends know vastly more than me.

Seconded, and fully agree.

A first-aider thinking they are more capable or competent than a doctor is arrogance of the highest degree.

 

[Norm De Plume]

From medics I know, they say that doctors are generally trained to deal with situations where all of the tools are to hand and ready to deploy. First responders are trained to deal with incidents in the field and to stabilise the patient so that they get to a hospital alive. At the same time, there are also a lot of things that nurses are better at than doctors, like bandaging and giving injections for the most obvious ones. I don't think that it's especially arrogant to acknowledge that.

When I'm trail riding in the back of beyond, I'd rather be with some of my experienced mates than service engineers from the official dealers, because I and my mates have the experience to jury rig stuff to get home, but the service engineers are often completely stumped if a fault doesn't register on the diagnostics. There are a lot of similarities there.