Words fail me

[gregorach]

You do talk out of your bottom sometimes gregorach and not for the first time. Do you really believe that all cruel or bad people are victims of some sort of child abuse ?

Pretty much, yes. I have quite a wide definition of "child abuse".

Some people are just downright evil pure and simple there dosn't always have to be a reason behind it.

I respectfully disagree. Do you think there is an "evil gene"? Or that people are possessed by demons or something? Do you have any explanation at all as to why someone should be born "evil"?

I expect you believe in all those conspiracy theories , like Phil had Di murdered and it wasn't an accident at all etc.

I have no idea where you get that idea from - it's a total non-sequitur. I try to base my thinking on evidence and logic. I may not always succeed, but I do try. For the record, I do not believe that Di was murdered, or that the WTC towers were demolished by explosives, or that the US government has alien technology hidden at Area 51, or that flouridation of water is a communist mind-control plot, or any other such nonsense. Not that I see what that has to do with developmental psychology...

Due to you and others of late I'm not going to be contributing anymore on here there's too much nonsense and rubbish being written.
I'll probably pop in for a read every now and again.

Well, if you can't cope with polite disagreement with your publicly stated opinions, that's not my fault. I'm not going to change my opinions, or bite my tongue, just to keep you happy.

.............and yes, you're absolutely correct. I've never heard of the work of Alice Miller.

Yet you feel you can confidently dismiss her extensive research simply because you think you disagree with it, despite never having heard of it before? That strikes me as somewhat closed-minded.

You are, of course, perfectly free to believe whatever you like. Others, myself included, are equally free to disagree with you. If you don't want to encounter disagreement, then perhaps an internet discussion forum is not the best place to express yourself - in my experience, disagreement is endemic in such situations. That's pretty much the whole point.

 

[dave k]

"Do you really believe that all cruel or bad people are victims of some sort of child abuse ?" Pretty much, yes. I have quite a wide definition of "child abuse".

HI,

Do you have any docs or research links to expand on this?

This is quite an interesting argument actually - weather children are really innocent and are a product of their environment, or are personality types actually determined at a genitic level? I think some trains of thought are due to religious belief's - e.g. the child's innocence is paramount, it has to be abusive parents, surroundings, pet dying, etc.etc.


There is a really good list of reading on the human genome project list:

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml

And this lists out the research done into the following personality traits:

* Hand skill, relative (handedness): (139900)
* Hand clasping pattern: (139800)
* Arm folding preference: (107850)
* Ears, ability to move: (129100)
* Tongue curling, folding, or rolling: (189300)
* Musical perfect pitch: (159300)
* Novelty seeking personality trait: (601696)
* Stuttering: (184450)
* Tobacco addiction: (188890)
* Alcoholism: (103780)
* Homosexuality: (306995)

Tounge rolling is quite a fun one - apparently if you an roll your tounge into a circle it's a genetic trait, and only your genetic relatives will have this ability!

I find all of this stuff really facinating - and scary when I look at my parents

Yet you feel you can confidently dismiss her extensive research simply because you think you disagree with it, despite never having heard of it before? That strikes me as somewhat closed-minded.

I would think that relying one one person's research in such a broad field would be more closed minded?

 

[gregorach]

I really don't want to get into an extensive discussion of the matter here... A good place to start would be the Alice Miller link I put in up-thread.

 

[dave k]

I really don't want to get into an extensive discussion of the matter here... A good place to start would be the Alice Miller link I put in up-thread.

Anyone who says about abortion "can, indeed, be seen as the most powerful symbol of the psychic annihilation and mutilation practiced since time immemorial on children." won't get much of a read in my book

 

[gregorach]

You don't have to agree with everything someone says to find some of their ideas interesting or useful. I certainly wouldn't agree with that particular quote.

 

[gregorach]

In fact, I notice that what I believe is your source for that quote (Daniel Mackler, An Analysis Of The Limits Of Alice Miller), whilst taking several entirely valid issues with Miller's theses, nevertheless describes her as "my favorite writer in the psychology field".

 

[dave k]

You don't have to agree with everything someone says to find some of their ideas interesting or useful. I certainly wouldn't agree with that particular quote.

Well, I suppose - but I don't want to have to read Mein Campf to realize Hitler's passion for watercolour paintings that I would agree with...

 

[gregorach]

It's a very minor component of her work.

 

[dave k]

It's a very minor component of her work.

I'm sure

Anyway I've had beatings as a kid - one time my dad thrashed me with a coax - aerial cable, all over my back - and I don't go about killing other people's animals and hanging them up in the school...

 

[Silverback]

I'm sure

Anyway I've had beatings as a kid - one time my dad thrashed me with a coax - aerial cable, all over my back - and I don't go about killing other people's animals and hanging them up in the school...

Coaxical cable - you were lucky when I were a lad my dad used to send us down pit with only a bowl of cold gravel for us tea and when we got home from a 72 hour day he would kill us all and send us straight to bed

 

[Lurch]

Back to the subject of the thread, bear in mind that it is entirely possible the lamb was dead prior to being strung up.
Sheep (and more so lambs) like nothing better than to turn their toes up at the drop of a hat.

 

[gregorach]

I'm sure

Anyway I've had beatings as a kid - one time my dad thrashed me with a coax - aerial cable, all over my back - and I don't go about killing other people's animals and hanging them up in the school...

Her thesis is not that such treatment invariably leads to such outcomes, as you would know if you had given her work any serious consideration.

Back to the subject of the thread, bear in mind that it is entirely possible the lamb was dead prior to being strung up.
Sheep (and more so lambs) like nothing better than to turn their toes up at the drop of a hat.

Indeed they do...

 

[sam_acw]

That doesn't really make it a lot better though does it?

 

[bambodoggy]

Pretty much, yes. I have quite a wide definition of "child abuse".

I don't know if "abuse" in more traditional terms is required per sa, to make bad people but certainly a very fair percentage of human adult behavior is "learned behavior" and as such if learned due to nothing more than simple lack of parenting skills which (rightly or wrongly) equals neglect which is certainly a form of abuse, I'd say your statement above covers just about any eventuality....hardly very scientific even if blarringly obviously true! You hardly need to be a phsyco-analist to work that out

I respectfully disagree. Do you think there is an "evil gene"? Or that people are possessed by demons or something? Do you have any explanation at all as to why someone should be born "evil"?

The other problem here is the very varied ideas on what is "Evil" and what isn't, to a practicing Christian for example the concept of evil is very different to that of an atheist. To a bored husband the idea of being forced round yet another shoe shop by his wife might be termed "evil" or the slaghter of a pig for food would be concidered evil by an animal rights supporter.

I think we can all agree that the story that started this thread is to most reasonable people an evil one.....but there will be others out there that think differently. Maybe this was part of a cult ritual and the entire cult thinks that by doing this it will bring them closer to their god....they wouldn't think it evil.

Everybody is different and has different opinions and ideas, our words are not alway able to cope with this.

The other thing to consider is that maybe the offender in this story is suffering from mental health issues, maybe this is a desperate cry out for help.....

I really (and obviously) don't know why this nutter did this......but I do know things aren't always as straight forward as they can seem.

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[anthonyyy]

A worrying aspect of this kind of cruelty to animals is that a high percentage of serial killers and other very serious criminals, indulged in this sort of activity as children.

 

[Lurch]

That doesn't really make it a lot better though does it?

Well of course it does, hanging a dead animal is a whole different business to hanging a live beast.

 

[demographic]

Pretty awfull for someone to murder those poor lambs before they got a chance to see the butchers knife

 

[falling rain]

And there was this in todays news http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/6552869.stm

I'm not even going to comment on this one because I'll earn myself a ban. I'd better leave it there, as far as understanding these people is concerned because there is no excuse whatsoever. And no one will convince me that there is.

 

[falcon]

Incandescent and virtually speechless..... :AR15firin

 

[Dances with Wolves]

There just are not the polite words to express the emotional response to such behaviour. Evil truely is one of the few words thats comes close. It's like conscience does not exist for these kind of people. Emotional attachment has been severed probably at a young age.

The potential for debate is endless. between possible causes e.g. child abuse, mental trauma etc. to psychological and medical issues e.g. chemical imbalances, upbringing or lackthereof etc.

I have a hard time even thinking about shooting an animal with an air rifle for legitimate hunting reasons unless its a mercy killing; specifically a rabit with end stage miximatosis. So I can't even begin to comprehend someone thinking an act like the ones mentioned above is anything other than "That is sick and depraved, and unjust."

On the whole I quite agree with the comments made by gregorach, and i don't have much time for arrogance like that of falling rain. The cut and thrust of debate is what makes life interesting. If everyone agreed with everyone, nothing would progress past its basic stage of development because everything would be good enougyh as it is, no-one would challenge anything and say "that could be improved upon."

In contrast to this I do agree with bambodoggy because the deffinition of evil is a highly relative term.

If I was to briefly state my own beliefs. I do believe a sub standard upbringing is a primary factor. followed by abuse. And it is important to realise the difference between being disciplined and abused. I was "smacked" as a child, but there is a big difference between getting a smack around the bottom or legs and being beaten and bruised or beaten. Usually in my very limited experiance. The people who commit these disgusting acts usually have family and emotional and relationship problems, usually supported by lack of self confidence and a history of abuse.

Wolves.