Words fail me!

[Andy BB]

gm crops produce huge ammounts of natural insectiside chemicals possibly carcinagenic that we are then supposed to eat? They never state usually how the resistant qualities function. Gm soya has huge levels of oestrogen, seriously. And why not bring back agent orange while your at it.

Agent Orange? Well, I suppose that's about as relevant as claiming failures in testing Thalidomide 50 years ago is representative of modern practices

And surely if the natural insecticides produced by GM crops are that dangerous, maybe we should destroy all crops that produce natural insecticides, GM or not?!

 

[Andy BB]

...

You seem to be advancing an argument that the olive fly research is part of the mosquito research - it patently is not. The olive fly research is a commercial harnessing of similar genetic modification, but it is neither relevant nor necessary to the mosquito research.

..Virtually identical techniques. So its ok for mosquito control, but not for valuable crops eg Olives? Or do you object to the mosquito trials as well, because they're - gasp - GM?

 

[santaman2000]

I read somewhere that malaria has killed half the people that have ever lived, I wonder how more crowded the planet would be if there was no malaria, is this not a natural control?......

I ave no idea if your numbers are correct, but it really doesn't matter, the point is certainly valid. The problem however is that point is equally valid against all medical advances.

 

[santaman2000]

.....And surely if the natural insecticides produced by GM crops are that dangerous, maybe we should destroy all crops that produce natural insecticides, GM or not?!

Or just carry on using chemical pesticides seeing as how they're so safe?

 

[Dano]

I ave no idea if your numbers are correct, but it really doesn't matter, the point is certainly valid. The problem however is that point is equally valid against all medical advances.

Not my numbers just something I read. You are right, we keep our weak alive and send the strong to war. Go figure...someone said "the meek will inherit the earth" how profound...not really natures way for sure


Dano

 

[wingstoo]

I think there are many on here who would/should be dead and buried if it wasn't for the wonders of modern medicine and techniques, If not Dead and buried they would certainly not be able to live the life they do now.

 

[Dano]

Me included, I am grateful but it's not nature is it, now we see resistance to antibiotics, perhaps that's just natures way, dick around with genetics and anything can happen

So you change the olive fly, they all die, the birds that feed on them and other pests die so you end up with more pests. Or they are effective so there is a massive commercial impact, the olive/olive oil margin increases, wages go up, house prices go up, bubble bursts etc etc, these industries took decades or centuries to establish and the whole economics can be changed overnight by one fly, ref bees, potato famine, pandemic flu etc it's a gamble


Dano

 

[British Red]

..Virtually identical techniques. So its ok for mosquito control, but not for valuable crops eg Olives? Or do you object to the mosquito trials as well, because they're - gasp - GM?

Absolutely - I believe releasing genetic modified insects as a money saving exercise is wrong. We have seen before that insecticidal techniques go wrong - repeatedly. Not just on Persistent organic pollutants, but neonicotinoids and many more. At least these techniques are now banned - but once you release genetic mutations, the genie can not be put back in the bottle - which is why European controls are, rightly, so strict.

 

[Andy BB]

Absolutely - I believe releasing genetic modified insects as a money saving exercise is wrong. We have seen before that insecticidal techniques go wrong - repeatedly. Not just on Persistent organic pollutants, but neonicotinoids and many more. At least these techniques are now banned - but once you release genetic mutations, the genie can not be put back in the bottle - which is why European controls are, rightly, so strict.

So let me get this right - you think that Europena controls are "so tight", but object for some reason the European GM olive fly trials being performed - for purely commercial reasons? So is it ok for "medical" purposes, but not ok for commercial ones?

Or is any risk too much? In that case go back to treating all ailments with pure distilled water - after all, thats what homeopathists believe, anyway

(although, logically, I should point out that even though "active" ingredients have been diluted past the point where there statistically cannot be even one molecule of the ingredient in the water sold as medicine, the homeopathic belief is that the water molecules retain a "memory" of the active ingredient. However, as most of the water you drink out of a tap has been also recycled time and time again after being in contact with faeces, urine - animal and human, viruses, bacteria, rotting corpses, chemicals, poisons etc during its existence over the millenia, you may want to consider whether "water memory" is such a good thing )

 

[British Red]

I believe the "olive fly" is a problem which has been coped with since Roman times.

I know for a certainty that previous scientific advances in insect control have shown not only to be flawed but so detrimental that they have been banned outright.

I know that the risks in GMOs are much, much higher than the risks associated with chemical controls

This says to me that given the scientific community have proven themselves repeatedly unable to foresee the outcomes of insect control and given the heightened risk of a GMO, then we must have a hitherto unseen degree of certainty AND need before considering a GMO as an insect control mechanism.

I do not believe such a need is present in the case of the olive fly (which is what this thread is about).

 

[presterjohn]

gm crops produce huge ammounts of natural insectiside chemicals possibly carcinagenic that we are then supposed to eat? They never state usually how the resistant qualities function. Gm soya has huge levels of oestrogen, seriously. And why not bring back agent orange while your at it.

Isn't that what is called a straw man argument? You have thrown the idea of GM crops giving us all cancer without offering any evidence for that. I could just as easily say eating GM crops might give us super powers and turn us into living gods. As I said I am only interested in following the evidence. Show me good evidence that I am going to get cancer from eating GM bread and I will picket the GM labs myself.

 

[Tengu]

Just randomly, is there an example of where biological control has even worked?

Its a nice, tidy idea, but is it effective?

 

[santaman2000]

Just randomly, is there an example of where biological control has even worked?

Its a nice, tidy idea, but is it effective?

Several. The one that springs to mind was the wholesale slaughter of the buffalo in the late 1800s. It was a dual purpose near extermination, it eliminated the buffalo themselves from the plains, freeing them up for cattle ranching, and eliminated the Indians food source thus contributing to their near extermination as well. Both were deliberate goals of the slaughter.

Another was the elimination of bears, wolves and all large predators from the UK.

 

[Andy BB]

Just randomly, is there an example of where biological control has even worked?

Its a nice, tidy idea, but is it effective?

How about the dengue mosquito issue raised in the link in the first post! What was it - 95% reduction? Seems effective to me

 

[Two Socks]

Just randomly, is there an example of where biological control has even worked?

Its a nice, tidy idea, but is it effective?

They have succesfully been using certain flies to eliminate pests in greenhouses. (we call them 'sluipwesp', and google translate gives me the beautiful word ichneumon as the english equivalent?) For the rest the concept of 'bio-agents' has taken off too. Seeds are then coated with micro-organisms that will live in symbiosis with the plant and help them to defend themselves against a myriad of pests.

Edit to add: Phytoseiulus persimilis, a certain mite, is also being used a lot to battle mites that feed of the plants. Also succesfully.

 

[British Red]

Nematodes work well as a targeted bio control - there are certainly examples of properly managed biological control systems working really well

 

[petrochemicals]

Isn't that what is called a straw man argument? You have thrown the idea of GM crops giving us all cancer without offering any evidence for that. I could just as easily say eating GM crops might give us super powers and turn us into living gods. As I said I am only interested in following the evidence. Show me good evidence that I am going to get cancer from eating GM bread and I will picket the GM labs myself.

quite seriously Jurassic park "life will find a way" just like antibiotic over usage and resistance.

listverse.com/2013/06/22/10-problems-genetically-modified-foods-are-already-causing/

super resistant bugs

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/29/genetically-modified-crops-insects-emerged.aspx

increased chemical usage herbicide and pesticide

www.huffpost.com/us/entry/1931020

buzz.naturalnews.com/000984-second_generation-GMO_crops-carcinogenic_pesticides.html

kills only the target species, positive

news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2007/06/070607-crops-insects.html

kills non pest species

www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/20...ops-are-killing-monarch-butterflies-after-all

pest species replacement

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/06/01/gm-crop-use-makes-minor-pests-a-major-problem.aspx

cancer due to increased herbicide usage

functionaldiagnosticnutrition.com/proof-that-gmos-cause-cancer-severe-liver-and-kidney-damage-and-early-death/


but no, I cant find any study that links the actual plant to increaced cancer risk, even though they do produce carcinogenic substances.

 

[petrochemicals]

Isn't that what is called a straw man argument? You have thrown the idea of GM crops giving us all cancer without offering any evidence for that. I could just as easily say eating GM crops might give us super powers and turn us into living gods. As I said I am only interested in following the evidence. Show me good evidence that I am going to get cancer from eating GM bread and I will picket the GM labs myself.

actually re reading your post in a political sense gm crops give you cancer due to herbicide resistant strains of anything being over sprayed, and it seeping into the food chain, either the predators a la ddt and the puffins, or directly to humans through the environment, and your gm loaf buying stance only leading to general condonement of the aforementioned behavior.

also I quote:

"A human population that is unwittingly consuming BT, too, since the insecticide is part of GMO plants."

finding the links wasn't hard, but sorting through the ones that didn't discredit my argument was. So john , where shall jou be picketing, I'll even come with you.

 

[Dave-the-rave]

I can remember when feeding cows their friends was considered a smart move.

 

[Paddytray]

Anyone else thinking this is how the Zombie apocalypse starts...............


If you want me I will be im my shed with the rifle. .........

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Either that or like

Seem to remember a movie with a plot starting somewhat like this.... "Mimic" if memory serves!

the film mimic . Im sorry but im with red . Messing about nature for the sake of mass production is madness

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