Wild food through the year

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Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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torjusg said:
Of course if you grow enough different plants you will be able to cover the range of vitamins and minerals needed for good health. But your teeth may suffer from such a high carb diet (farmers eat a lot less meat than hunters). Having a fair portion of meat in your diet is important to keep a good health, farmers traditionally had too little meat in their diet. Fresh meat was eaten only on occation. Raw meat will give you everything as most animals consist of the same chemical mixture as we do.

With the freedom part, I mean that the average workload of a farmer is higher than that of a hunter/gatherer. Also, if growing a crop, you have to keep an eye on it. Travelling much is out of the question (freedom to me, don't know about yo
Torjus Gaaren

This is mince (sorry about the pun :)
World wide, healthy societies exist where very little meat is consumed. Vegetarians and vegans not only live healthily they produce healthy, viable and fertile offspring. It is by choice that meat is eaten in any society, though I do concede it'd be damned hard to exist on a traditional Inuit lifestyle without eating meat/fish, etc., but even the Inuit gather crops from the areas where grasses grow.
No society 'only' eats meat, and contrary to the opinion you expressed, meat eaters can have dreadful dietary problems.....indigestion, constipation, flukes, arterial plaques, highBP, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, etc., etc., (how many meat eaters actually eat the bones that would give them calcium??)
Historically too, a great proportion of the food consumed is gathered foodstuffs from plants. Roots, barks, fruits, leaves, stems & buds. Before the Neolithic and the advent of farming that meant that the gatherers *had* to travel looking for the plants they gathered. In certain areas where wild grasses grew heavy seed crops we find the first evidences of settlement, places like the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, the Fayoum in Egypt, etc.,
It is only very recently that transhumance has not been a major feature of farming life in the West, so travelling is not the prerogative of the hunter.

Cheers,
Toddy




Wild food available in January? from plants....roots, barks, perennial leafy plants, seaweeds, and nuts from in amongst the leaf litter. I've still got oats and barley growing now and those seed heads will still be available, and edible, in January too.
If global warming continues the rise will mean that we'll be back to the temperatures of the Bronze age in the UK, and tree buds, leaves and early flowers will be more available.

Cheers,
Toddy
 

Tantalus

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May 10, 2004
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nice points toddy , i agree with all that you say

the point about bronze age temps is interesting too

anyone know what they called global warming in the bronze age? :rolleyes:

our little blue planet has long been subject to temperature swings, i can not help wondering how much of the present media fury is merely that?

Tant
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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Tantalus said:
nice points toddy , i agree with all that you say

the point about bronze age temps is interesting too

anyone know what they called global warming in the bronze age? :rolleyes:

our little blue planet has long been subject to temperature swings, i can not help wondering how much of the present media fury is merely that?

Tant


:) I think the problem is *how* we're affecting the environment that is causing our planetary climate changes. I suspect our descendants are going to hold us in a great deal of scorn :(
It's true about the temperature changes, if you look at the the Southern uplands, land that is now sub marginal and can only be used for summer grazing was once capable of bearing crops. The Hill farmers are in for a pleasant surprise, pity about the rest of us :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Toddy
 

torjusg

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Toddy,

Sorry that I may seem a little too categoric when I write, there are perfectly healthy diets with much less meat in them than f.i. the inuit lifestyle. The inuits eat nearly only meat in wintertime (plus a little kelp, stored veggies and/or stommach contents of reindeer).

But it is fully possible to only eat everything on f.i. a reindeer throughout the year as every bodily need is to be found on the animal with no ill effects or deficiencies. Indigestion can for example be prevented by regularily eating bits of cartilage or sinew (hard to digest) resembling fibre in other diets. You have to eat a lot of meat raw though and also eat quite a lot of it. If you only eat cooked meat, one will of course suffer from deficiencies.

My point is that small scale, self-sufficient farmers tend (not all of course) to eat too little meat and too much carbs (farmed vegetables are usually low in protein and high in easily accessible carbohydrates).

But in the end it all comes down to the ratio of digestible nutrients bound in the different layers of the ecosystem. In the tropics, very little biomass is normally bound in the animal kingdom, while in the arctic it is the opposite. The UK probably lies somewhere in the middle, so a fair mix of plant and probably be the best alternative to you.

Torjus Gaaren
 
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locum76

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Oct 9, 2005
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torjusg said:
My point is that small scale, self-sufficient farmers tend (not all of course) to eat too little meat and too much carbs (farmed vegetables are usually low in protein and high in easily accessible carbohydrates).
Torjus Gaaren

theres plenty protein in eggs, milk, cheese, beans and pulses... we farmers dont just grow veg you know. and eating wild raw meat is an extremely risky business when it comes to your health.
 

arctic hobo

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locum76 said:
theres plenty protein in eggs, milk, cheese, beans and pulses... we farmers dont just grow veg you know. and eating wild raw meat is an extremely risky business when it comes to your health.
Although there are other problems with it (most notably cholesterol, which is now going out of favour as a "diet fact", as they do (!)), eggs have the closest match of the eight essential amino acids (proteins) to your body of any food in the world. So as a source of protein they are easily one of the best :)

Torjus, thanks for that link. This page: http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html I find very concerning! A lot of what is claimed on that page is a lot of rubbish!
For example, he says that grains, beans and potatoes contain toxins that can lead to acute gastroenteritis... but as Toddy points out, eating meat puts you in danger from a whole host of other things, so there's hardly much to choose between them!
He says that grains, beans and potatoes have a high glycaemic index... well, having just consulted a few textbooks, I can say that soya beans have a GI of 18 (exceptionally low), lentils 26-30, kidney beans 27, chick peas 33, and butter beans 31. I can in fact only find one thing lower than soya beans. Moving up a little higher (to what is known as "moderate GI"), we can find potatoes (56), sweet potatoes (54), pasta (which is effectively a grain product, and is 41), rice (58), bulgar wheat (48), and buckwheat (54). None of these have a high glycaemic index! Some are even below half (100 being the maximum they are all compared to.
It is also rubbish to say that foods with high GI are bad for you - like coffee, they are great, you just have to know when to have them.
It is also not true to say that they are not good sources of minerals. In addition, there are some vitamins (E is a great example) that you can only really get from grains, although cod and shrimp oil also contain them.
He says that "GBP" are densely packed with energy. This is not true either. Carbohydrates yield only 4kcal of energy per gram, the same as protein, whereas the fat group (including alcohol) yield 9kcal/gram.
He is also talking utter **** when he creates this false "GBP" group. Grains, beans and potatoes are not a food group. He says "Eat all vegetables, especially root vegetables, but not potatoes or sweet potatoes. The nerve of this guy! He tells us that root veg contains toxins and has high GI, but we're ok as long as we avoid those pillars of evil, the potato and sweet potato! This is pure, unadulterated ****. Plants store the glucose they form in photosynthesis in one way and one way only - starch. All plants store their food in this way. This is what is found in all of them, from potatoes to lettuce leaves.
Might I point out to our friend that the Parsnip, a root vegetable that is not a potato, and is therefore recommended, has a glycaemic index of 97?? And may I also remind him that sickly-sweet Lucozade has a GI of only 95? Swede (presumably also recommended) also has a high GI, at 72. In fact there are not, as far as I am aware, any root-vegetables-that-are-not-potatoes that have a GI below 49.
He says "Do not eat the Peanut!", which he correctly labels as a bean. This means, he seems to have forgotten, that it has a GI of 14. This is the lowest thing in any textbook I own, and from the looks of it, the web too. If he has a problem with GI, why on earth does he have a problem with this parragon of slow-released energy?

I'm not having a go at you! I just feel strongly about all this rubbish diet advice that floats around these days... whether it's Atkins or whether it's the cereal-bar diet. People it seems will try anything short of actually getting up and exercising to change their shape. Perhaps because they are used to having everything else on a plate it comes as a shock to find that health doesn't. I should stop now before I boil over! :soapbox: :D :D
If anyone wants me to back up any of what I have said, I'm happy to cite references to plenty of scientific studies (which, I might point out, our "Dr" friend quite fails to :rolleyes: ).

:D :D
Chris
 

rich59

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Aug 28, 2005
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A question on the "raw meat has everything you need" idea. Meat is mostly muscle. Yet we are made up of many other tissues - bone, brain, bone marrow, gut and so on. So, do you have to eat the whole chabang to get the balanced input?
 

JimH

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Dec 21, 2004
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rich59 said:
A question on the "raw meat has everything you need" idea. Meat is mostly muscle. Yet we are made up of many other tissues - bone, brain, bone marrow, gut and so on. So, do you have to eat the whole chabang to get the balanced input?

Yes.

"Raw animals" would be a better description.

Some of Ray's Telemark series touches on it, as the commandoes had nothing but reindeer and lichen to eat on the plateau where they hid out.

I second AH's comments about fad diet B*l*x.

Jim.
 

torjusg

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One doesn't have to eat bone, calcium is found in other tissue too. But putting the bone shavings from making bone tools in your stew, probably is a good idea anyway. Especially for women (they need more calsium).

Torjus Gaaren
 

rich59

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Aug 28, 2005
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JimH said:
Yes.

"Raw animals" would be a better description.

Some of Ray's Telemark series touches on it, as the commandoes had nothing but reindeer and lichen to eat on the plateau where they hid out.

I second AH's comments about fad diet B*l*x.

Jim.

OK, eating the whole raw animal is one way of getting a balanced diet - bone, brain, guts and all. But would I enjoy it? Would it actually be good for me in the long term. Sounds basically a bit extreme. Not a drop of fibre in sight. Eating brain has risks in a world with BSE. Eating bone sounds no party. Various diseases seem a likely end result if over time I eat many different species.

Why did we give up doing this as a species if it is so good for us as a balanced diet? Don't nearly all primitive humans go for cooked meat and veg with some fresh veg and fruit?

I had in mind a less extreme line really - a balance of mostly cooked foods, some fruit and some veg. So how about if the only thing I took from animal source was cooked meat. What would I need to eat to make up the difference? I would need to look elsewhere for carbohydrate, and fibre. What wild plants would I look for?

Indeed how about if I was vegetarian? Could I survive then?
 

arctic hobo

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rich59 said:
Indeed how about if I was vegetarian? Could I survive then?
You could certainly survive, although you would be at a slight disadvantage. The problem with vegetarianism is that the eight essential amino acids are rather scattered amongst vegetation, and you end up eating too much carbohydrate to get enough protein. It isn't a major problem, unless you're an athlete.
Things like eggs, however, are great - in fact nothing in the world matches your protein needs more closely than an egg. As I assume as a vege you can eat them :)
 

torjusg

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Beiing a self sustainted vegan in Britian is from what I know not possible as you need vitamin B12 to survive. Most animals can make this vitamin themselves, while we have to ingest it. From what I know B12 is only found in one plant; soy.

With some milk or eggs in your diet, you will get this.

I don't know much about vegetarism, except that every vegetarian I have met, farts a lot, smells bad and looks ill. :p

Torjus Gaaren
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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Really ?(yes I'm being fascetious!)

I disagree, but refuse to let a decent discussion degenerate into the gutter.

B12 is easily obtainable if one simply uses marmite as a spread, a drink or as a stock.
http://www.accomodata.co.uk/marmite.htm

The vast majority of vegetarians are healthy and have no difficulty finding sufficient food to live on a well balanced diet. Committed carnivores ought to be just that :D I cannot imagine a more boring diet than to subsist only on meat.

Cheers,
Toddy
 

arctic hobo

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torjusg said:
I don't know much about vegetarism, except that every vegetarian I have met, farts a lot, smells bad and looks ill. :p
Since you say you don't know much about it, I won't have a go, just mention that flatus is caused by diets high in protein and fibre, smelling bad is nothing to do with diet (apart from bad breath, caused by high protein intake), and well, looking ill I couldn't comment on ;)
 
No single food group is sufficient to feed a human being in the long term. We are omnivores and can only thrive (naturally) if we eat a varied range of foods. We are damned to sample beyond our own plate.

All foods (vegetal or animal) include toxins as well as valuable vitamins and minerals
All foods contain carcinogens
All food s can make you fat if you consume them in excess
All foods are worthy of sampling and enjoying

No single food is going to give you eternal life

Tell me what you eat and I will tell you who you are.

Yo El Ketchup
 

Tadpole

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Nov 12, 2005
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torjusg said:
Beiing a self sustainted vegan in Britian is from what I know not possible as you need vitamin B12 to survive. Most animals can make this vitamin themselves, while we have to ingest it. From what I know B12 is only found in one plant; soy.

With some milk or eggs in your diet, you will get this.

I don't know much about vegetarism, except that every vegetarian I have met, farts a lot, smells bad and looks ill. :p

Torjus Gaaren

All of the Vitamin B12 in the world comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produce it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it.

Our lack of B12 is due to our hygienic food preparation methods, not from failure to eat meat. Certain primates which have a vegan diet, these animals obtain vitamin B12 from bacteria and insects.

If you want to be healthy, avoid eating or drinking modern milk/dairy products as it is so heavily affected by drugs and “treatments” that you are better off not going anywhere near it

To be healthy in both the short term and long term you need a balanced diet. Made up of the following elements, all easily available from non-meat sources. Too much of anything is bad for you that is why you need to eat a BALANCED diet. Of course, if you eat too many Yams you body will reject it, not because it is bad for you just because there is too much fibre in Yams for them to be eaten exclusively, the recommended amount of dietary fibre is 20-35 grams a day. A single cup serving of Yam has 5.30 grams

Carbohydrates
We obtain most of our carbohydrate in the form of starch. This is found in potato, rice, spaghetti, yams, bread, and cereals.

Proteins
A 6-ounce broiled Porterhouse steak has 38 grams worth of protein. However, it also delivers 44 grams of fat, 16 of them saturated that is almost three-fourths of the recommended daily intake for saturated fat. The same amount of salmon gives you 34 grams of protein and 18 grams of fat, 4 of them saturated
A single cup serving of cooked lentils has 18 grams of protein, but less than 1 gram of fat

Fats
Nuts contain mono-unsaturated fats, polyunsaturated fats
nuts are a good substitute for meat (they contain protein, fat, iron, zinc and niacin). For example, ½ cup of nuts or ¼ cup of seeds or two tablespoons of nut and seed spreads like peanut butter or sesame seed paste is equivalent to a serve of meat.

Vitamins

There are 13 basic vitamins essential for bodily functions: Vitamins A, C, D, E, K, and the B vitamins (thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, biotin, vitamin B-6, vitamin B-12, and folate). They all can be obtained from food, and vitamin D and vitamin K can be synthesized by the body.
Vitamin A. Beta-carotene comes from carrots, pumpkin, sweet potatoes, winter squashes, cantaloupe, pink grapefruit, apricots, broccoli, and spinach. The more intense the colour of a fruit or vegetable, the higher the beta-carotene content.
Vitamin D The body can synthesize vitamin D when the skin is exposed to sunshine.
Vitamin E is found in wheat germ, corn, nuts, seeds, olives, spinach, asparagus, and other green leafy vegetables, vegetable oils, and products made from vegetable oils, such as margarine.
Vitamin K is found in cabbage, cauliflower, spinach, soybeans, and cereals. Bacteria in the intestines normally also produce vitamin K.
Thiamine (vitamin B-1) cereals, pasta, whole grains, fish, dried beans, peas, and soybeans, Fruits, and vegetables contain some thiamine.
Niacin (vitamin B-3) is found nuts Legumes, cereals also supply some niacin.
Foliate is found in green, leafy vegetables and many foods are now fortified with it as well.
Vitamin B-12 found in shellfish,

Pantothenic acid and biotin found in whole-grain cereals, legumes, yeast, broccoli and other vegetables in the cabbage family, white and sweet potatoes, lean beef, and other foods.
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is found in citrus fruits and their juices, strawberries, tomatoes, broccoli, turnip greens and other greens, sweet and white potatoes, and cantaloupe. Most other fruits and vegetables contain some vitamin C
Mineral Salts
Calcium: dark green leafy vegetables
Chromium: Whole grains, brewer's yeast, nuts, dried beans
Copper: Whole grains, nuts, oysters
Iron: dried beans, nuts, dried fruits, whole-grain and enriched grain products
Magnesium: Leafy green vegetables, nuts, whole grains, dried peas and beans,
Phosphorus: grains
Potassium: Fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains, seeds
Selenium: whole-grain breads and cereals,
Sodium: Table salt, vegetables,
Zinc: legumes, nuts, milk, yogurt, whole-grain cereals

Fibre

Fiber is an indigestible complex carbohydrate found in plants. Fibre is not a single food or substance. Fiber in itself has no calories because the body cannot absorb it. Therefore, high fibre foods low in fat are low in calories such as fruits and vegetables. fibre "bulks up" waste and moves it through the colon more rapidly, preventing constipation and possibly colon cancer. The trickiest accomplishments of fibre may lie with the stickiest kinds called gums and pectins, as they may keep cholesterol under control by removing bile acids that digest fat.


You may notice that all of the “stuff of life” foods are available from plants if you eat correctly then you can be more healthy than a meat eater.

All that aside eating meat in small quantities is a “easy way” of getting proteins and necessary amino acids.

Back on topic
If you want good trail food, and are willing to work hard during the times of glut both of animals and fruits, apples and berries, then try Pemmican (I have eaten it once and found it a rich (albeit fatty) an agreeable food )
Dieticians today would find it difficult to concoct a better balanced basic meal or diet without the benefits of refrigeration or preservatives since greens, roots and tubers could be added to the pemmican when available. During the fur trade, if a fur trade (canoe) paddler requires 3.6 to 4.5 kgs of meat per day to sustain him, 0.7 to 0.9 kgs of pemmican would provide the equivalent nutrition

From the “The Hudson's Bay Company”
"Cut buffalo meat into strips and hang on a rack to dry in the sun. Pound the meat into shreds with a stone. Mix the shreds of meat with hot buffalo fat and berries. Pour the hot mixture into 45 kg buffalo-hide bags and let it cool and harden. To serve, cut off chunks with an axe and eat raw or boiled."



A Recipe for Making Pemmican
Dooleys of Boise
Newsletter for Voyageurs printed in the Winter 1981
1 Batch = 3 1/2 pounds
4 cups dried meat - depending on how lean it is, it can take 1 - 2 lbs. per cup. Use only deer, moose, caribou, or beef (not pork or bear). Get it as lean as possible and double ground from your butcher if you don't have a meat grinder. Spread it out very thinly in cookie sheets and dry at 180° overnight or until crispy and sinewy. Regrind or somehow break it into almost a powder.
3 cups dried fruit - to taste mix currents, dates, apricots, dried apples. Grind some and leave some lumpy for texture.
2 cups rendered fat - use only beef fat. Cut into chunks and heat over the stove over medium (or Tallow) heat. Tallow is the liquid and can be poured off and strained.
Unsalted nuts to taste and a shot of honey.
Combine in a bowl and hand mix. Double bag into four portions. The mixture will last for quite a while without refrigeration. I have eaten it four years old. It actually improves with age.
HINT: Vary the fat content to the temperature in which it will be consumed. Less for summer. Lots for winter. Not only is it good energy food for canoeing, but an excellent snack for cross country skiing.
This recipe was originally from a Chippewayan Indian Guide as he learned it from his father. No buffalo chips!
 

ship

Tenderfoot
Nov 27, 2005
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NE UK
torjusg said:
You guys don't have much sense of humor. I am just playing on common misconceptions. I don't know any vegetarians, nor have I met any as far as I know. :lmao:

Torjus Gaaren


well i thought it was funny :lmao:

ship :D
 

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