Wild Camping Petition

[Yorkshirewanderer]

I think the main problem with is lack of education from an early age, respect for this small country we live in needs to be a key part of education in schools, time spent outside with kids in the woods or local areas litter collecting might educate (health and safety normally puts a stop to this), unfortunately we live in a society where a lot of people just don't care full stop. There are times i have seen kids (and adults) drop litter only to be then sworn at because i have pointed out the fact that they have dropped something. Growing up i would never dream of throwing my empty coke can on the floor................ Sorry Rant over

I do agree with Big Red that policing such a policy would be mayhem, where tax money could be spent elsewhere.

Although i would love to be able to wild camp in a lot of places in England it seems like there would be too much red tape and hurdles to get through before it would even be looked at as a serious option, although i do respect the OP for trying to do something about it i just cant ever see it happening in my opinion.

Good Luck

 

[Sneak]

Firstly I must admit that I havn't read all the posts in this thread but there are some that stood out and I think I have the general idea of what is being said.

I do understand the frustration that is felt by landowners that cant tell people to move on because they're making a mess of the countryside, however... Why should people like myself be punished and stopped from wild camping when we enjoy it, it keeps us fit if combined with hiking etc and we leave places we visit just as clean or cleaner than when we arrived? When I go camping, wild or not, you can't tell ive been there at all other than a slightly flattened patch of grass where ive slept which will be standing again within a day. Lets face it, if you buy a car your buyin a car for yourself to use and insure. If you buy a plot of land that already has public rights of way, you know this before you buy it and therefore if you dont like it, dont buy it.. You wouldnt buy a car you dont like just for the sake of buying a car..

Wild camping and bushcraft isn't about tramping through peoples land, chopping down trees to burn and just building shelters.. I agree that there are people that do this and it's wrong. But why yet again, should everyone be punished for a minority of people that just need educating?

I say let people camp, let them hike, give them a chance... But... If caught abusing their 'rights' the land owner with the help of the police should have the 'rights' to make the offender pay for damages caused when there is evidence to back up the complaints..

 

[Tony]

I think that if I were a landowner i'd say that if you sorted out all the people that would abuse my land and make sure it's not abused I'd allow you to camp on there no problem, however, putting the onus onto the landowner just seems wrong to me, I think there's far more people that don't know how to camp nicely or don't care at all than there are that do, so that would leave the land owner completely and inappropriately out of pocket and entangled in all sorts of hassle.

If it could be that people would respect land and respect owners of land etc I'd be all for pushing on camping rights etc, but I don't believe they do or even will respect others land and rights and I think it would be wrong to force them to deal with people that don't care.

As for if caught abusing, the whole onus then goes onto the land owner and the police, if there's damage or the like it's very unlikely that the landowner will catch them, or if they do they'll have to have the finances to persue through the civil courts, that's just wrong as well.

 

[backpacker]

I do a lot of wild camping and have never had any problems, If I can find the landowner I will ask there permission which I have done many times and never had any problems, but there are people out there young and older who have no respect for when it comes to wild camping and camping in general.

I wild camp and when I am ready to move on I leave the land as I found it and you would never have known that I had been there, I have even asked the landowner to check that he/she is happy with how I have tidied the area before I leave, when it comes to collecting wood, you don't have to cut any down as there is normally plenty of wood laying on the ground, but I have been to areas where people have cut down young trees and completely wrecked the area and leaving there rubbish when they leave which is not fair on the landowner.

On Dartmoor where wild camping is permitted some of the areas I have walked through looks like a council dump with all the rubbish! which unfortunately the minority ruins it for the majority and we all get tarred with the same brush which at the end of the day when it comes to Signing a 'Petition for Wild Camping' this is going to be a problem unfortunately.

Its all about educating people about respect for the land and landowners and I agree with Sneak and Tony, if caught abusing their rights then the landowner has all the rights to call the police and make the offender pay for any damage caused.

Dave.

 

[Goatboy]

I think if we condense the arguments, pros & cons down it comes to the fact that in parts of the USA and Scandinavian countries you have more space per person and to a degree more respect for the environment amongst those playing there.
Look at the toilet and general lawlessness that was Loch Lomond when it became a National Park. Though part of me felt that maybe it could've been kept as a sacrafical lamb to keep the headcases in one place. Groups like The Ramblers have huge clout and get alot of things their way. Yet I've found their track record of.making their members to follow good practice pretty awful. Having worked for the government, private and estate.forestry in both England & Scotland I.came across.a lot of different types of users of the countryside. The good folks I often turned a.blind eye too. The folks.who damaged and littered I would do all I could.to get rid of. I always tried to be nice but sometimes.the level of violence I was offered dismayed me a lot.
If people want to use the reasource they have to earn it. Either by buying their own or treating other folks property with respect. I take great pride that most folk don't know I'm there or have ever been there.
Education and good manners can change a landowners mind. It may take some time to build that trust, generations even but it's got to start by those wanting to.use it earning that by education and practice.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[GGTBod]

I have met people like you working in custodial/caretaker situations on land and water in the UK, some of them on first meeting are very defensive as if expecting us to be idiots and once we got talking they realised this was not the case and allowed us access and in other cases massively assisting us in our adventure, like last year we went to take our canoes to Derwent Reservoir only to be told on arrival that you could only use boats in it if you were a member of the private club situated on the waterside, we had used public transport to get there and were refused access to the water, we knew we were six mile south of the river tyne so called a taxi and piled our gear in and headed for the river, we get out of our taxi and make our way down to the riverside to inflate the canoes, just as we reach the waters edge we are collared by the gamekeeper who was strimming paths through the undergrowth to allow fisherman waterside access, he tells us under no circumstances could we enter the river there due to fishing rights, my answer was "You must be joking!" at first he thought i was being hostile but we started laughing at the mishap of our so called adventure so far and we told him our woes and he realised we were not the usual idiots he often meets we were a different kind of idiot, the kind with the best intentions and terrible luck/poor foresight, he packs up his strimmer and told us to load our kit into his pickup and he drove us ten mile east down river to where we knew we had access rights to the river, on route he told us several tales of the type of people he meets and the hostility and threats of violence he experienced whilst doing his job. Without his help we'd have had a ten mile walk carrying 2 inflatable canoes weighing over 12 kilo each plus our wetsuits and pfds and paddles etc, bloke was a lifesaver, thankfully the morons he had met had not ruined him towards all potential river users.

I know random story been up all night planning adventures as i couldn't sleep

 

[Goatboy]

Like in all things in life I try to treat folk with respect and hope they'll do the same with me. It can be a bit unerving aproaching a group on your todd in the middle of nowhere when they may be aggresive and you've no back up. I've found the great majority of folks are great, but some are a real worry. Not just for my safety but for theirs as some are so ill equiped, both gear wise and knowledge. Some folks don't get that you are trying to save their life.
It's also sad when they trash the environment that they're saying that they want to enjoy. One retired forester I knew bought a parcel of land as a hobby to keep him busy in his retiral. He spent a lot of time of money making it a noce place for folk to enjoy. But the local horse riders were churning up some areas of the trails he put in. He asked them nicely if they could change where they rode in bad weather when the trails suffered most. They all ignored him and rode 'till the paths were unpassable to man or beast. In the end he gave up and a lovely and well looked after wood became a no-go area that nobody could really enjoy.
Sorry maybe a bit off topic from OP but if we all took a more accepting view of different disiplines and people then there's room for us all to play nicely in this crowded little island.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[GGTBod]

It's all relevant in regards to access to land and how it's used, i had a rambler verbally abuse me about mountain biking up on the fells south of Hexham saying we tore the place up, the main damage i seen up that way to trails was caused by quad bikes and horses, the mountain biking code i was taught in regards to respecting the land says when on tracks always ride the singletrack trail that is least worn especially in bad weather as it minimises your impact and makes your cycling easier. I had sadly found horse riders to be some of the most disrespectful countryside users of all, big piles of crap left everywhere and trails chewed to death and an attitude like they own the place (maybe some of them actually did lol)

 

[boatman]

As far as I can find out there has not been one successful legal action over "trespassing" on an English river so why not enjoy the river where you wish and there is public access to the waterside? The gamekeeper may have been doing his job but he was protecting the indefensible. I won't link to the various access campaigns and information but they can be found very easily as can the evidence in support of the fact that it is legal to use any navigable river.

 

[daveO]

At the moment in the Welsh Valleys where I live there is a rising culture of kids destroying the countryside for entertainment. In every spell of dry weather there seems to be a 'who can start the biggest grass fire' competition on the hillsides. Over easter they took over my local woods (forestry commision property) and chopped down healthy mature trees with axes for fun, kicked down wooden fences and raided local building sites to get anything to burn even though the woods are full of deadwood. The place is now just left for someone else to clear up. It's only a small wood and part of it is made up of ancient beech trees. Every year more and more of them are disappearing because 'they're just trees'. I'm all for kids getting into the woods and making dens and stuff but I can't see any way wild camping should be allowed until this kind of mindset can be corrected sadly, even if it is the responsible people who suffer as a result.

 

[GGTBod]

As far as I can find out there has not been one successful legal action over "trespassing" on an English river so why not enjoy the river where you wish and there is public access to the waterside? The gamekeeper may have been doing his job but he was protecting the indefensible. I won't link to the various access campaigns and information but they can be found very easily as can the evidence in support of the fact that it is legal to use any navigable river.

The river i live on is one (River Tyne) of the few in England that actually has an access agreement and not free rights to paddle, it was also peak salmon fishing season and we were trying to access the river on his patch as it was the closest part of the river to the road from the reservoir , normally i would use proper agreed access and egress points

UK waterways access rights maps

 

[Samon]

What's the point?

I've been camping and tramping etc loads over the years since I was a teenager and only just last year found out that 'wild camping' wan't allowed in England! Call me ignorant, but no one gave two hoots about me and my buddies with our little fire, sausages sizzling away and our crappy tent propped up nearby. Infact, as we were too lazy and poor to travel anywhere special we just played in some super tiny wooded area near some fields by my mums house and it was right next to a gravel track and near a man made smelly river right by the opening of the sea. (both were rank, dirty English beach looking at Wales, full of waste and drowned sheep..)

We'd often have dog walkers poke their heads through or walk directly through andsay hi or ask what we were doing. Not a single one was grumpy or rude and smiled when we told them we were enjoying the outdoors. They saw us chopping dead fallen branches with axes and machetes and only said be careful lads! This was only about 8 years ago and one time the fire brigade were called as someone saw our smoke in a slightly different area and once they finally broke through the dense bramble bushes they had a look and said 'looks nice them sausages and beans, how do we get out of here?'. When I asked if we were breaking the law by having our axe and knife and the fire itself there they simple said 'no mate, just put the fire out when you're done'. And I'd like to add, we did that circle of rocks thing for the fire and took our mess with us when we left. That is until some gits found that spot and ruined it by leaving their filthy sex tent there and loads of burnt blankets and cans..

General ignorance like that, not a bad thing btw (not the lazy, dirty gits but the firemen and me), is common. Same with knives, 'can't carry a knife outside', 'knives are illegal'. So few know or even give a crap, it's not worth worrying about. Now I don't condone breaking rules or laws, but for someone like me to get by for all those years without a single instance of getting in trouble or moaned at says something..

However, I would never camp on blatantly private land. That's a whole different ball game and I'd expect to be mauled by someones guard dog or bull and maybe shot at with rock salt. And if I did own land and some scrote was making a mess on it I'd be really angry and upset and demand legal action be in place to prevent further trespass.

 

[santaman2000]

That is my belief, and the reason I am strongly opposed to such an idea. Policing such a proposal costs money, compensating landowners costs money, cleaning up messes like Loch Lomond costs money. There are better uses for my taxes. England is too small a country with too dense a population for this to work.

Signed up. Question are we allowed to wild camp on forestry commission land after it is the peoples land.

You may well say that, but back in the days of nationalisation British Rail was the peoples railway but you would not get very far camping on that land. The forestry commission managed woodlands are a working environment and you need to be aware of that.

Sounds logical to a point but it does seem a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

Wow. I never realized how good we have it - about an hour and half away from 1000+ square mile Cherokee National Forest - this is the primitive camping policy...

"For visitors wanting to get away from it all, dispersed camping outside of developed campgrounds is allowed throughout Cherokee National Forest unless posted otherwise. Camping is not allowed within 100 feet of water, trails, trailhead parking lots and developed recreation areas. Dispersed camping is free and no permits are required."

Having taken advantage of it many times I can tell you that litter and abuse is NOT a big problem - negligible if you get just a short walk away from the road. May and October are prime times to visit if you get the chance BTW - but the best time is when it's cold enough to keep the crowds at the mall. Better do it soon before someone detects frackable gas under it.

But it is in this small overcrowded island that we call Britain, I don't know the facts, only what I see so far as burnt patches, makeshift shelters, crisp packets, plastic bottles and tinnies.

In a nutshell, yes policing it does cost money (including here in our National or State forests in the US) At the state forest level it's usually policed by the states dept. Of Fish & Wildlife or whatever name the individual states give to their game wardens (full stop state police officers specializing in conservation laws) At the national level it's done by Forest rangers. In both cases they're funded by hunting/fishing license fees and taxes on hunting/fishing equipment and specialized fuel sales serving outdoor recreation (fuel sold at marinas) This system assures that all government costs are borne by the users and result in a surplus (above policing costs) used for other conservation work. These funds account for millions at the state level in EACH state and I have no idea how much at the federal level. They also derive funds from the sale of timber form said forests (yes the state and national forests are managed as working forests rather than stockpiles for future use)

In short, we can afford the costly policing because we have a ready source of income to do so. The UK is a vastly different place though. I expect the demand for hunting and fishing licenses is nowhere near as great, and I doubt you'll ever begin to harvest the forests as a resource. If I understand it correctly, you also don't reserve taxes (such as the tax I mentioned on outdoor recreation equipment) to specific uses but rather put it in general funds. All this would seem to preclude you being able to effectively afford to police something like wild camping without diverting taxes from elsewhere.

 

[boatman]

If vandalism in the countryside is illegal, and it is, then it would be unaffected by freeing up wild camping restrictions. Any reported problems from when the New Forest had virtual wild camping with permits? or, was there a perceived problem and an opportunity for revenue by creating "proper" campsites that were, as mentioned before, often on sites that people used anyway and would be classified as brownfield such as a disused runway complex?

 

[nic a char]

No, abuses are perpetrated by the MINORITY

 

[Quixoticgeek]

People say that the UK is too densely populated so that things like wild camping can't work etc...

The UK has a population density of 255.6 people per square Kilometre. The Netherlands has a density of 406.9 people per kilometre.

In the Netherlands, in some of the less man made areas[1], there are a number of pillars. Each one is a large pillar in the ground usually with a water pump attached. Camping is legal for upto 72 hours ( I think), within 10 metres of these posts. This limits the wild camping to set places, and provides some basic control over the camping. I don't know if a bin is provided. But as an idea, I find it quite appealing.

Just a thought.

J

[1]In a country that is largely reclaimed from the sea, the idea of wilderness is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

[nic a char]

GOOD thought!

 

[Samon]

Excuse my further ignorance, but, do these same rules apply to camping/fires on beaches?

And what exactly is the 'crime and punishment' for playing on gov' land?..