Wild camping dartmoor threatened again

[Falstaff]

Sadly I don't think restricting usage and access is productive or positive. Education and changing public perception and behaviour is very hard, no matter the legal penalties. The self-entitlement to leave gear and rubbish at concerts shows what an uphill struggle it is/would be.
Unfortunately the "Right toRoam" is understood by some to include their campervans in beauty spots and anywhere else, often blocking up car parks for walkers etc etc. leading to overnight parking bans for those who wish to wild camp, or even going for a day walk. e.g. would you expect to find a campervan (s) on the Ridgeway, or multiples of them on a bridleway in Wiltshire*. - But they do, with tents. (* a regular spot for "fairies" they informed me, hopefully).

The Peak District reference was meant as an example of the damage caused by excessive numbers/usage. Opening up more areas might reduce it or it might not. Media influencers & TV etc tend to cause mass migrations of sheeplike behaviour to the same places/routes. Ditto the insistence on having a campfire or it's not a wild camp.

A Scottish friend of mine, now resident in the south, was very pro Right to Roam per the Scottish model. However, it didn't take long for him to get around, and having seen how the softy southerners campers and walkers conduct themselves, is now very against it.

 

[nigelp]

Nigel, it was never a threat to ban wild camping per se, the major landowner the Duchy of Cornwall would never seek to ban wild camping, or change the areas agreed with the DNPA, it is woven into the fabric of Dartmoor, and I am so pleased the ruling went the way it did, but yes, things could have escalated had it gone the other way, I do agree.

Wild camping was available on that piece of land before they came along, so if they don’t like it, they can do one as far as I’m concerned, interfering incomers.

But “Right to Roam” is a very, very different thing. These people are politically driven and eaten with envy and jealousy. No one should have the right to just go or camp where they want, purely ridiculous, and if you have seen what I have seen……..You would agree I’m sure.

That's an interesting one because when the case was first won the permitted wild camping area map was removed from the NPA website and at no point even after it was renegotiated did the DOC make a public statement, or commitment to allowing wild camping regardless. Unless I missed that in which case I'll stand corrected.

The DOC own a staggering amount of land in mostly the SW of England and yet the only land where they 'allow' wild camping is on Dartmoor because it is part of the Dartmoor Commons Act.

Allowing something is the not same as being made to allow it by law (Dartmoor CommonsAct), as now upheld by the supreme court. It can now not be taken away, or eroded.

As to the Right to Roam, despite the challenges faced I still support the right to increased responsible access to the countryside and increased access beyond the existing rights of way network. Those are challenges but the approach should be to compromise rather than allowing a minority on each side to gain say any talk because they don't like change or can find egregious examples of abuse.

There is more road side rubbish than in the countryside but I see no outcry and call to ban cars and roads! Although I would fully support the ban on the sale of plastic bottles and throw way coffee cups! More people live on the streets in tents and road side permanently in vehicles than 'wild camp' across England and Wales and in Scotland under the right to roam but again I see no outcry to solve that issue.

I have walked through farms where there are vast amounts of plastic detritus blowing about, run off from slurry and silt/soil running into water courses, fuel and oil contamination etc. However I know that these like the examples given to refute the right to roam agenda are not typical.

The majority of land owners are proud of where they live and work and those walking in the countryside also treat it with respect and care for it.

 

[TLM]

A little perspective from Finland where the "Everyman's right" is well established. I think it is mostly used for collecting wild berries and mushrooms. Those people usually do not litter and they are not any kind of a problem. In most areas very few just walk. Trekkers tend to use established trails in the south, in the east and north it is different. My own experience is that reindeer herders and other snowmobilers are the worst litter bugs, some years ago my son collected some 15 empty beer cans during a 4 day walk, that was about half what we saw.

There is a growing problem with reindeer herders, by the year they seem less and less able to walk and ATV tracks last a long time in the Lapland's slow growing vegetation.

 

[Nice65]

the real world, not some fantasy where everyone is lovely and Unicorns and fairies mix happily.

Well, that’s my day ruined! The main reason I’d want to camp out on the moor is to be a part of the unicorn and fairy mixing.

 

[slowworm]

There is more road side rubbish than in the countryside but I see no outcry and call to ban cars and roads! Although I would fully support the ban on the sale of plastic bottles and throw way coffee cups!

We have roads here in the countryside as well! Yes they are often covered in litter and yes people do moan about the drivers. But just like litter dropped virtually anywhere nothing is done about it. The difference with public places and private land is why should a land owner open it up in the full knowledge people will drop litter, or worse, and nothing will be done to stop it or pay to clear it?

I don't see why you seem to be splitting people into two separate groups, round here most open access land is driven to. So if someone is going to sling rubbish out of their car they are just as likely to drop it whilst walking. There's plenty of evidence of this.

I'm not reassured by the "we'll educate people" or "we might tighten the law" comments as I'm not naive and I know that means nothing will be done.

I also don't agree with the concept that constantly crops up in that just because one type of person does damage to the countryside we should allow other groups to. Round here there's a lot of industrial farming which does a lot of damage to the area, what small patches of land that aren't intensively farmed need to be protected and I don't feel allowing open access will do that.

 

[nigelp]

I don't see why you seem to be splitting people into two separate groups

What groups?

 

[Falstaff]

What groups?

The pro and against access minority groups you referred to. Both sides seem quite large but in terms of total population I agree they are a minority. Ever it was thus so.
There is actually a lot of pressure and Govt/local will to reduce/prevent tent encampments and van dwelling on road sides, probably because it embarrasses them and is seen as a political failure. Consequently, they spend a lot of money on it, not necessarily wisely or well.

It's out of context to this discussion, but the current govt. seem very keen on finding ways to getting rid of cars, plastic bottles and coffee cups ! But I'm not very happy with their perceived solutions! But as far as littering and flytipping, it's just hot air words and push it off onto cash-strapped councils.
Slowworm does have a point about the industrial farming, it can be very destructive. When we wild camp we inevitably try to seek out the few remaining wild pockets. Nobody wishes to wild camp in a big open crop field, even if we could!

 

[Moondog55]

I think all of this discussion is ignoring the really big elephant in the room, just like Australia your tiny island has a population in excess of it's real carrying capacity. Here in Oz we have a population of about 30 million in a country that can only truly support about half that. I think that the UK is even worse off

 

[nigelp]

I think all of this discussion is ignoring the really big elephant in the room, just like Australia your tiny island has a population in excess of it's real carrying capacity. Here in Oz we have a population of about 30 million in a country that can only truly support about half that. I think that the UK is even worse off

Because that’s a subjective comment, falls well within the realm of politics and will lead no where!

 

[Pupers]

Well, that’s my day ruined! The main reason I’d want to camp out on the moor is to be a part of the unicorn and fairy mixing.

Actually there are Fairies on Dartmoor………….You just have to know where to look!

 

[Nice65]

Actually there are Fairies on Dartmoor………….You just have to know where to look!

Most myth and legend has to have come from somewhere, I’m happy to believe in the Fey.

 

[nigelp]

The pro and against access minority groups you referred to. Both sides seem quite large but in terms of total population I agree they are a minority. Ever it was thus so.
There is actually a lot of pressure and Govt/local will to reduce/prevent tent encampments and van dwelling on road sides, probably because it embarrasses them and is seen as a political failure. Consequently, they spend a lot of money on it, not necessarily wisely or well.

It's out of context to this discussion, but the current govt. seem very keen on finding ways to getting rid of cars, plastic bottles and coffee cups ! But I'm not very happy with their perceived solutions! But as far as littering and flytipping, it's just hot air words and push it off onto cash-strapped councils.
Slowworm does have a point about the industrial farming, it can be very destructive. When we wild camp we inevitably try to seek out the few remaining wild pockets. Nobody wishes to wild camp in a big open crop field, even if we could!

Oh I see. Those were just analogy’s to show that the perception of the countryside being littered is somewhat exaggerated against the reality and other issues. That blanket bans and ‘they do this so stop them doing that’ is a bit spurious.

I’m talking about the right to extend the existing rights of way network. Wild camping doesn’t bother me so much because I will just carry on as I have done for 35 years. Quietly, leaving no trace and no one knows, and know one cares.

I sorry you live somewhere that is so despoiled and ruined by selfish people. I have hiked, walked, biked and worked as an outdoor instructor for 35 years or more in Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Dorset, Wiltshire and some surrounding counties and can report that away from roadside areas the countryside is pretty much litter free.

 

[Pupers]

I sorry you live somewhere that is so despoiled and ruined by selfish people. I have hiked, walked, biked and worked as an outdoor instructor for 35 years or more in Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Dorset, Wiltshire and some surrounding counties and can report that away from roadside areas the countryside is pretty much litter free.

Not where the great British public have access it isn’t, it is far from litter free. The likes of you and I, and of course the good people on this type of forum, have a love and appreciation of our countryside, it has been everything to me, including a career trying to protect it. But sadly, that love does not extend to all. My career brought me into direct conflict with those who simply DGAF! Sad isn’t it.

I guess doing what I did, and what I love to do now, has made me very cynical, sorry, but that is the reality.

 

[Glow_worm]

Really mixed messages here.

I am passionate about Dartmoor, and will fight, or do my best, to preserve it, preserve the right to wild camp within the designated areas, and to walk or hike on the access land, footpath and bridleways etc, In fact I have and do nearly daily.

And yet due to irresponsible members of the public littering on Dartmoor, you think that similar access rights across England would be 'utterly rediculous', and those pushing for them are 'eaten with envy and jealousy', yet you would 'fight' to preserve this very situation on Dartmoor?

 

[Pupers]

Really mixed messages here.



And yet due to irresponsible members of the public littering on Dartmoor, you think that similar access rights across England would be 'utterly rediculous', and those pushing for them are 'eaten with envy and jealousy', yet you would 'fight' to preserve this very situation on Dartmoor?

Bit of warped thinking, your the one pushing really mixed messages. We will obviously never agree, total polar opposites, so hardly worth corresponding……Don’t you think?

Must go, have a Roe Buck to butcher, real organic food.

 

[Glow_worm]

No, if you read back through the posts you have made, you'll note you have complained about the litter caused by wild camping on Dartmoor, and used this as a reason why similar access rights shouldn't be expanded across England. Despite this you have stated you would 'fight' to defend the current access rights on Dartmoor.

Could you explain how interpreting this as mixed messages is warped thinking?

Could you also explain which of my messages you regard as mixed, so I can explain and clarify?

This is an internet discussion forum, the purpose being to discuss things, and it's fairly natural we'll come across people with different opinions. You're likely to have greater reception if you are less rude in how you address people, and refrain from manking fairly extreme statements without any explaination or willingness to further explain.

I also have a diminishing freezer full of roe (roadkill), but it can't be certified as organic, in case it has nibbled toxin-sprayed crops on it's travels...

 

[nigelp]

Not where the great British public have access it isn’t, it is far from litter free.

Nonsense. I walk and ride a minimum of 2000/3000km a year on public rights of way and see hardly any rubbish when you are away from roads and car parks. I’ve just cycled 25km on New Forest tracks today and picked up 4 pieces of rubbish and a tooth brush. The New Forest is the most visited National Park in England and mostly all open access land.

To be frank I don’t care what anecdotal evidence of littering you have or think you have. I support increased access to the English countryside - landowners can get onboard now have discussions about it or they will find it it forced on them anyway.

All these arguments were used before the mass trespass movement and it turned out that the majority of people enjoy the hills and dales responsibly.

Wild camping is a different and separate issue for me and I don’t actually agree the right should extend to all open access areas.

I also think that there is a massive difference between those that wild camp and those that put up tents on private land and party. No one I know would leave a tent worth £300/400 behind and all pride themselves to leave no sign of their being there.

 

[Pupers]

Nonsense. I walk and ride a minimum of 2000/3000km a year on public rights of way and see hardly any rubbish when you are away from roads and car parks. I’ve just cycled 25km on New Forest tracks today and picked up 4 pieces of rubbish and a tooth brush. The New Forest is the most visited National Park in England and mostly all open access land.

To be frank I don’t care what anecdotal evidence of littering you have or think you have. I support increased access to the English countryside - landowners can get onboard now have discussions about it or they will find it it forced on them anyway.

All these arguments were used before the mass trespass movement and it turned out that the majority of people enjoy the hills and dales responsibly.

Wild camping is a different and separate issue for me and I don’t actually agree the right should extend to all open access areas.

I also think that there is a massive difference between those that wild camp and those that put up tents on private land and party. No one I know would leave a tent worth £300/400 behind and all pride themselves to leave no sign of their being there.

Nigel, I care even less what you think, I know exactly what I have seen and had to clear up. So your opinion means nothing to me whatsoever. I regularly still meet up those at the sharp end, and they despair at what they have to deal with. Your world may be different to real world experiences, I do however wish your world existed.

 

[Pupers]

……….The New Forest is the most visited National Park in England

Absolute nonsense, nowhere near. About as accurate as claiming there is hardly any rubbish left in our national parks. At least make an attempt to get simple facts right.

 

[slowworm]

To be frank I don’t care what anecdotal evidence of littering you have or think you have. I support increased access to the English countryside - landowners can get onboard now have discussions about it or they will find it it forced on them anyway.

That's the bottom line isn't it, people want access without any regard to problems caused or damage done. That's an attitude that seems common but I don't think many land owners will accept.

I don't know what you mean by "get on board with" when you dismiss any concern raised, which despite your comments are based on real life experience.

You also keep referring to roads and land away from roads seemingly ignoring much of the land that would be opened up is right next to roads.