why is scouts goin bad?

[Ogri the trog]

Some very moving tales so far gents,
My memories of scouting were of virtually every other weekend either camping, climbing/abseiling, canoeing etc etc.
From your stories, it seems as though there are two different sides to the Scouting motto.
There are some who are "Prepared" to go that bit further, and there are those who are "Not Prepared" to take any risk.
I thouroughly enjoyed my scouting days, but when I tried helping out at a village troop, there was a distinct feeling that we were a glorified baby sitting service so the parents could go down the pub on a friday night. They were willing to pay the subs every week, but when it came to camping weekends - it was all too much trouble.That was a few years ago and in a different area -perhaps I ought to try again.

Ogri the trog

 

[jamesdevine]

I'd give it ago.

I started a Venture scout group here last September after been told repeatedly that it had been tried before and never worked. It's June now and we have septembers programme in the planning and new members wanting to come up from scouts. It wasn't just me there are three other leaders and five very enthusiastic venture scouts that have played a huge part in keeping it going.

Starting small is the key get a Patrol going and then work from there. Once the foundations are layed get then to recruit their friends. It's very old method but works really well.

James

 

[Pignut]

There seems to be a focus on the "risk" of bushcraft. The point of scouting is to help the youngsters do things that they would not be able to do if they where not members of the movement!

If you are fully aware of the risks involved (and complete a "risk assesment form ) there is no problem with any activity let alone bushcraft

I have found that given a slightly looser reign the group will perform better and safer than if wrapped in cotton wool. (14 year olds do bounce extreemly well also)

If anyone would like to see some of our programmes or ideas please let me know

 

[wingstoo]

Having been the CO of a cadet unit I know a lot about most of the subjects that have been mentioned above.

The main problem is known as "DUTY of CARE" by neglecting this you open yourself up to litigation should anything, and I mean ANYTHING goes wrong.

I have heard of instances where staff members have been almost literally thrown out of the organisation for putting someones shirt collar straight on a parade ground, so can you blame these people for erring on the side of caution. One spitful youngster can literally bring a leader down with a single comment.

Yes we know that the system should be looked at, but you have to follow the book, We had a senior officer who would not let cadets put on camo cream because no one had been trained to do so, and there was no official publication to show the staff how to do field craft.

If no one on the unit has a first aid qualification then the unit should not open, if no one on the unit has a BELA qualification then you cannot take the kids off the unit to show them how to pitch a tent, if no one on the unit has a BELA you cannot take them off the unit to teach them cooking, it does not matter if you have been doing it for 10, 20, 30 years, you are not qualified without that piece of paper, as for bringing in outside lecturers, do you realise the implications that can cause, they have to be constantly supervised, unless they have had "CLEARANCE" and been checked by the police to find if they have any type of criminal conviction.

This is how it is nowadays, It is meant to be the year of the volunteer this year, but to get clearance can take anything upto or exceeding a year, until you have that clearance you cannot go onto the unit.

If you had to wait a year for clearance, would you bother, 99% of people would probably not bother, apart from that it can cost thousands to have a full history check done on a "volunteer" so where is the money going to come from!!!

Hope this gives you all some food for thought, sorry to be so negative about it all, but would you want your child to be harmed because someone didn't do the necessary checks.

Dave D

ludlow survivors

 

[nameless]

I think that scouts does not revole around bushcraft as it once did. It has become a youth organasation off many people. Lets take cubs as an example most of the leaders that i know have no actual out doors expereance, the parents are their to mind the kids. Now scouts ( in ireland anyway) as become very rule concciuss and well just boring, i remember a whole scout nite was dedicated to learning how a trangia works which is not a bad thing but it brings me around to my point i never used a trangia in scouts. When we went on camps we got their friday evening put up tents,boundys and ridiculas buildings ( which is all right every so often) then we di a hike on sat and back home on sunday. what a bleeding bore i found it after two times that enentually i got bored and went off ,kipping doeing the boundrys, and just looking around where we were. I think that the social side to scouts is grand but as bushcrafters i'm sure some of us find scouts a tad bit "not intune with nature" and we can tend to be a bit superior. So i think that scouts is mainlygood but is laking in people with out doors experiance and has too many rules which make leaders too conscious. Hope i haven't been bull******* to much

Cheers
Adam

 

[grahoom]

my old man set up out cub and scout group as there was nothing for the boys to do in the village and surrounding villages where i grew up. and then later on my nan set up the beavers.

we had great time in scouts, doing a lot of back wood camping; playing all the classic games - like wide games. we did archery, we learnt about basic trapping, and preparing game (i have forgotten a lot of it).

we made dutch arrows, and had a lot of fun seeing who could hurl them the farthest.

we did archery, canoeing, rock climbing, caving.

we had air rifles to use. did orienteering. - basically all the stuff i am trying to get back into, i did back then.

As Chopper says, i think back then the rules and regulations were not so strict - so we got away with doing a lot of things that just wouldn't happen now. - which is a shame.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Ludlowsurvivors, Dave,
Whist I can see that an unqualified instructor might leave themselves open to litigation, I believe that it is the wholehearted reliance on "qualifications" that is ruining every aspect of our culture. I have witnessed people who have qualifications coming out of their ears, but whom I would not trust to cross the road unsupervised.
As an example of my frustration, who taught you to tie your shoe laces? Were they "Qualified" to tie that knot, were they qualified to instruct? What about peeling potatoes or chopping vegetables? Did you ever go camping with your parents as a child?
For countless millenia, each generation has learnt from the experience of its elders. I agree that children should be protected from the malicious intentions of those who would do them deliberate harm, but when organisations such as the Scouts, which I enjoyed so much, is hog-tied by so much red-tape, it really puts my back up.
I can, as a parent, show my children how to pitch tents, use a knife, even prepare wild meat, but if I want to do the same for my neighbors child, I would need a list of certificates as long as my arm as well as being vetted by various organisations to varify that I was up to the task.
We are all loosing skills because those who are "able" are a seperate group from those who can "teach".

A sad state of affairs, the remedy of which, apart from total anarchy, I do not know.

Ogri the trog

 

[grahoom]

"Anarchism . . . teaches the possibility of a society in which the needs of life may be fully supplied for all, and in which the opportunities for complete development of mind and body shall be the heritage of all . . . [It] teaches that the present unjust organisation of the production and distribution of wealth must finally be completely destroyed, and replaced by a system which will insure to each the liberty to work, without first seeking a master to whom he [or she] must surrender a tithe of his [or her] product, which will guarantee his liberty of access to the sources and means of production. . . Out of the blindly submissive, it makes the discontented; out of the unconsciously dissatisfied, it makes the consciously dissatisfied . . . Anarchism seeks to arouse the consciousness of oppression, the desire for a better society, and a sense of the necessity for unceasing warfare against capitalism and the State." (Anarchy! An Anthology of Emma Goldman's Mother Earth, pp. 23-4)

 

[JimH]

It all depends on your leaders, and on the scouts themselves.

...and always has done, in my experience.

My Scout Leader was rather uninspired - little outdoor stuff(in Shropshire!), little supervision, VERY rough wide games, and I lasted around 11 months, despite the fact that I was really geed up to start with - my dad was a scout through to University/National Service and a scout leader in W. Yorks thereafter in his 20s.

Didn't help that I was the youngest, and bullying was rather rife.

Great disappointment, but didn't kill the enthusiasm for the outdoors, more failed to address it...

I'm sure it's like all walks of life - some are good, some are less so.

Ho hum.

Jim.

 

[jamesdevine]

In Ireland weare not so regid when it comes to the veting of Adults. This is both good and bad for all the obvious reasons.

From reading the post I think one part of scouting has been forgotten and that is we are and educational organisation. We are not here to teach maths or english, but scouting exists to help young people grow in to full and complete adults. Our founder new that the best way to do this was encourage them to think for themselves, to participate fully in life not to sit at the side lines and watch it being played infront of them. He recognised that this is best done by getting them outdoors and learning from nature the lessons in life often not covered in standard education systems.

We here all acknowlodge that to learn from nature you must experence it, feel it, emerous(sp) yourself in it. There are risks in this as nature has some hard lesson to teach, but the risks are worth it. A limited version of this can be thought to scouts and to certain degree cubs by following the scout motto "Be Prepared". Having a trained First Aider there if not more then one, All leaders should be trained to the fullest in the skills they are teaching if not they shouldn't be there.

Allowing one or two little monkeys from spoiling it for others or stopping you from teach the young about this wonderful world of ours is simply wrong. time should be spend to discover why they feel afraid of a little risk or a telling off of for doing something wrong. Maybe the perents attending a camp before their kids are allowed to join would stop this.

With regard bring in outside instructors not been allowed. Well it's just rediculas if the are trained to instructor standards and are a proven instructor the leader should be able to make the decision as to weather they are suitable or not and surly they will need be to there anyway as condition of scouts insurance.

my 2 bobs worth (sorry)
James

 

[bushbasher]

It is without a doubt that many people currently involved with the Scout movement lack the necessary experience to instruct Bushcraft and other wilderness activities.

I do not believe that this is entirely the fault of the instructors themselves after all Instructors are just people who live normal lives and often do not spend a great deal of time in the outdoors. I would personally prefer to see someone who lacks the necessary skills honestly admitting that do not know something, rather than teaching it badly and causing someone an injury.

In response to enquiries from several Scout groups I have organised a range of courses specifically for Scout Groups. These Survival Badge courses take the pressure of the Leaders who in most cases are more than happy to allow someone else to take over the responsibility for teaching the skills.

 

[wingstoo]

Ogri the trog

I totally agree with you, the system is far to bogged down with rules and regs, thats one of the reasons I am now an ex CO, fed up with all the B U L L S H I T that there was, is and always will be.

I can however offer a simple solution, just get a written consent from the parents showing that they are fully aware of the possibilities of "accidents" happening and waiving their rights to attempt to start any proceedings against you, it works nearly every time, but you still have to be very careful that you follow all the safety and duties that you have to.

I run "training" weekends for all types, young and old, did a week long one late last month for older ones, but did it on short notice so only two attended, will be doing a weekender in early August for the kiddies, fire lighting, shelter building and assorted other activities, and I do it for free, cos I believe in passing on the knowledge I have to others.

Ludlowsurvivors, Dave.

 

[sargey]

i'm also one who reckons that scouts would do better to get back to the "scouting" side of things. kids can get computers, sports, and so on anywhere, but you can't get outdoors, lighting fires camping, cooking your own food in so many places.

we do try to do a fair bit of what call could be called bushcraft core skills with our scouts.

as well as your scout evenings and camps, keep an eye out for county run badge courses. we have a survival skills badge course, which leads on to a DofE bushcraft syllabus course. there're badge weekends on pioneering, mountain activities, expedition challenge, and more..........

being a leader can be very frustrating, and it has the occasional golden nugget of great satisfaction. even from such mundane things as the biggest girls blouse in the troop managing to light a gas stove on his own without burning himself.

the worst bit for me is the "but we pay money to come here, you can't tell me what to do" line, or the "that's what you get payed for.." very irritating. we don't get paid, scouts costs me time, effort and money. but it's worth it.

cheers, and.

 

[stotRE]

I feel that the Scouts are obsolete in this present age but we can take responsibilty for teaching our own children bushcraft.

I once contacted the National Lottery for a grant to start an alternative youth movement for young white children but was branded a racist ( i am a Nationalist so therefore i am automatically labeled a racist).
I do not want to start a political debate because my own political beliefs will upset a lot of members of this forum but i feel that the PC disease has infected the scout movement to such an extent that they have completely removed all adventure and danger which is extremely saddening.

Alot of people these days are scared to stand up and be counted and a lot of parents feel that the state should take over control of the well being and education of their offspring.

This is a fact of life in the nanny state and i cannot disagre with the instructors who are cautious as to the activities that they conduct through the fear of being sued for any wrong doing.

As Mr Paul Weller once sung " This is a modern world !"

 

[Lurch]

I once contacted the National Lottery for a grant to start an alternative youth movement for young white children

If you'd said it was for one legged muslim lesbians, you'd probably have been quids in. Crazy world.
However I don't think that ANY exclusive organisation (one that actively excludes rather than just doesn't tend to attract) should be encouraged by NL monies.

 

[Womble]

"However I don't think that ANY exclusive organisation (one that actively excludes rather than just doesn't tend to attract) should be encouraged by NL monies"

Lose the last 3 words and I fully agree with this sentence.

 

[peakecentral]

Lots of Scout Groups do a great job, and others struggle for a whole bunch of reasons. 'Twas ever thus, because it is a voluntary organisation. We certainly have young people who appear to be dumped on us for childminding purposes, but the majority of the youngsters in our area are fully engaged in what we do.

The Balanced Programme which now covers the whole movement includes lots of outdoor stuff, which is great. It also includes health, fitness, environment, community, faith and the whole spectrum of what Scouting represents. The programme opens the movement up to far more boys and girls than an exclusively outdoor programme would. This increases membership and diversity within the group, which is something I believe is a good thing.

Finally, there is very little you cannot do in Scouting. I sincerely believe some people believe in hiding behind the rules to avoid any risk at all, but I always tell new parents that we WILL expose their offspring to risk, because that is what we do.

Enough ranting, I have to prepare for the Malvern Challenge tomorrow. Thousands of Scouts having a good time...

 

[swamp donkey]

I agree with peake central and not with stotRE because doing your own thing with you kids does not teach them about mixing and difference . I did the whole scout thing Queens scout Gold DofE etc. Even in the sixties troops where very different there where 5 troops within walking distance of where I lived in North London , 2 did traditional scout things , 2 did mechanics go carts hovercraft and the noisy like.and the last (mine ) did extreme scouting .50 mile trek cart hikes . pioneering bridges over the canal etc. I donot agree that the nanny state even exists unless you want it to ,most of the rules if you want to call them that are sensible and easy to comply with.
The big problem for scouting is US because we are not leaders . I help when I can but my work means that I am often away for a month or so which rules out being a leader.
I am still in contact with many of my scouting friends many more than my ex srevice ones. In fact many of my scouting friends are still involved and there troops sem to have some great adventures


Swamp Donkey