Volunteering, work in the Cairngorms

[Hammock_man]

This is not building a school, bringing water to the poor, saving babies, it is a PROFIT making setup.
I have no issue with making a profit, non at all, I really really tried to do it when I was self employed. This is just taking advantage. As they are after someone with a decent skillset this is not just 25 hours of minimum wage. Looking at the number of photos of past people this is an ongoing requirement. This means there is some young person in that neck of the woods who is out of a job, even a part time job. But its not like they are charging £57.50 per night per person.

 

[Toddy]

Son1 says the only discrimination he practices is, "Can they do the job ?"
I could imagine that in the hospitality industry that personal appearance can matter though….after all it'd be a scary sight to go for a wander to the loo first thing while still half asleep, and bump into the staff and they maybe looked like one of those folks who do the whole lizard tattoos and horns 'neath the skin body modifications.
Not saying that's the reason, iimmc ? just that, well, aye, mebbe no'.

Janne ? we have the NHS, and everybody pays their National Insurance. There are clear guidelines on the amounts, etc., available, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...d-allowances-national-insurance-contributions

I presume that the site carries it's own public and employers liability insurances.
As for meat, they do say that they have bbq's on occasion. Meat at every meal is not compulsory! and indeed many deliberately limit their consumption here. Masses of recipes for things like 'Meatless Monday'. I believe the site is an organic small holding. They keep sheep and ducks, so eggs, and occasionally lamb will be homegrown. Why buy in when you grow your own ?

M

 

[Toddy]

This is not building a school, bringing water to the poor, saving babies, it is a PROFIT making setup.
I have no issue with making a profit, non at all, I really really tried to do it when I was self employed. This is just taking advantage. As they are after someone with a decent skillset this is not just 25 hours of minimum wage. Looking at the number of photos of past people this is an ongoing requirement. This means there is some young person in that neck of the woods who is out of a job, even a part time job. But its not like they are charging £57.50 per night per person.

There is a need for someone, in season. That's the rub. It's seasonal, up here tourist things shut down through half the year. They are not economically viable for twelve months of the year. Besides, where these folks are you can't get to them when the snows come, anyway. They used to do it themselves, but after forty years they're no spring chickens and their own have left the nest. It's unlikely that any local youngster would hang around long enough to be 'employed' for a few months at minimum wage and nothing the rest of the year.

M

 

[Arya]

If you yourself think that your skills are not worth paying for, then nobody else will either.


"Bring a compass. It's awkward when you have to eat a friend."

 

[Janne]

Janne ? we have the NHS, and everybody pays their National Insurance. There are clear guidelines on the amounts, etc., available, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...d-allowances-national-insurance-contributions

I presume that the site carries it's own public and employers liability insurances.
As for meat, they do say that they have bbq's on occasion. Meat at every meal is not compulsory! and indeed many deliberately limit their consumption here. Masses of recipes for things like 'Meatless Monday'. I believe the site is an organic small holding. They keep sheep and ducks, so eggs, and occasionally lamb will be homegrown. Why buy in when you grow your own ?

M

If you are a foreigner working in UK like many of the 'volunteers' then they need to be sugned up in the NHS ( with a NHS GP), NI and so on. You need a NI number to sign up with an NHS GP. And an NHS Dental Surgeon of course.

You do not get NHS treatment just by showing up.
So my question would be, does the employer pay the NI contribution? Will the employer cover the NHS fees?
Liability - if the 'volunteer' chop of a thumb - insurance?
If he damages a guest - insurance?

I would be very cautious getting into working like this.

Is it even legal?

 

[Toddy]

Yes, it's legal, and for any foreigner, unless they're into the WOOFING anyway, and that's a whole different mindset to those who are shimpfing here, I honestly doubt they'd bother for a couple of months of work. If your home country has a health care system then the NHS honours the agreements.

Arya ? they are paying you in food and board…..for seven days a week for five hours a day five days a week…..that b&b rates work out at an average of over £25 so £175 at a bare minimum you'd pay for somewhere just to stay. Add in extra food and bike hire (or transport, there's no public transport on a frequent basis) and you're over the £200 a week. Miniumum wage for someone over 25 is £6.70 so about £170. If you had to pay for your accommodation and your food, you'd be out of pocket living there.

They're 'paying' well over the minimum 'wage' for someone to do some work and have a lot of free time in an area where it's hard to find accommodation at a reasonable price during the height of the tourist season and the best of the weather.

M

 

[santaman2000]

Sounds similar to what most states here do to maintain their public campgrounds (campgrounds in State Parks or State Forests) each such campground has at least on "resident camper" who is a volunteer and who maintains the facilities. That said, the states don't offer food or a camper; the resident is expected (and prefers) to use their one RV and eat their own food. What they DO get is the campsite free (usually sites at State Parks or State Forests with hookups are about $35 to $40 per night)

I've never seen these positions taken by younger people though; always by retirees living their dream full time. They'll stay at one such site (maybe in the Florida woodlands) for a few months then move on to an new one (perhaps in the Colorado mountains or the Arizona desert)

 

[Toddy]

That sounds like a good way to spend some active retirement time I suspect it's very popular among the 'can-do' type folks.

I think most of the complaints here are that the site is a commercial one…albeit low key. It's their home, their livelihood too, iimmc ? they just need a helpful sort of person to do some work in the height of the season and they're 'only' offering food and lodging full time for that. If there were enough work to justify paying someone then it wouldn't make good business sense to give up a potential rentable space for free too, but there's no cheap accommodation to be had there in season (or out of it either, come to think on it).

If one of mine had told me he was off up there to work and chill out for a few months, I'd not have worried. I'd have sent his Faither up to visit (and probably do some hillwalking too ) with parcels from home, and made friends with the folks who run the place. Good walking, good climbing, fishing, canoeing, ski-ing too if the snows lie late-ish. Lots of archaeology, lovely folks, just a shame about the midgies; why living in a tent there for more than a few days is not fun….you note they have a 'midge eater'
M

 

[Janne]

In Sweden we had the so called 'statare' that worked like this.
The closest translation to english I found was 'bondager'.
Was abolished 1945 I think.
My belief that all work should be rewarded by monetary means, except voluntary charity work.

About 10 of the previous 'volunteers' are from countries outside Schengen. A work permit is needed for those people.
The law is the law. Even if we do not like it, we should abide. Or be prepared to face the conseqvences.

A business that employs illegal foreigners should be informed on.

 

[Toddy]

We have to agree to disagree. Payment by money renders is often an unfeasible concept, especially in a situation like this one.

Schengen ? ?? Having quickly read through the list of their previous 'volunteers' it seems they are all achievers folks from incredibly diverse backgrounds, and very capable. Not the kind of people who undervalue their work, iimmc. I suspect it's the site and the accomodation offered that was the draw for them. No other way to live in that area without it costing an arm and a leg. Living with locals has an enormous appeal too; it's a great way to really see a country, it's people, and be part of the society.
I have no idea of work permits, but from the sounds of their professions, etc., I can't see that they wouldn't have sorted that out properly; they sound very much on the ball do those 'volunteers'.

Bondagers here has a different meaning. They were the women who did the harvesting and were often ad hoc 'married' to the man who was paid. They were female farm labourers, farm servants with no security bar their hard work. They were known for having sunstained faces and hands and ageing well before their time, even if they got a good man. Lowland Scotland and the North of England agricultural improvements onwards times. The advent of mechanisation on farms more or less did away with the need for them.

M

 

[Janne]

The term statare does not readily translate, I know that the definition for bondager is slightly different.
Statare were people ( both sexes, married, with kids etc.) that lived on farms, worked as labourers in the agriculture, husbandry and forestry, for food, board and clothes given to them.
No money given.
They had a de facto one year contracts, but to finish the contract was quite difficult. In many cases they were not allowed to venture outside the boundaries of the property, except by permission. Usually they were permitted to participate on the special week in October, the week of the local 'fête'. They also were given a bit of money, at the discretion of the owner, so they could buy something little. Books tell that usually the money went towards drink.
If they wanted a new employment, they had to find the new employer, find the old one and tell him that week.
If they did not tell him and just went, they could be jailed for vagrancy.
The system was not as harsh as serfdom but very similar. It was hated by most people, except the landowners.
If a Statare family had too many children they could be forcibly removed. There are indications/rumors that many landowners treated the young females and the pretty married women as own wifes, if you get my meaning.
Droit de signeur I think it is called.

If a statare stole, the sentences were incredibly hard. Prison with hard labour usually.

Everybody knows how labour friendly, caring and progressive Sweden is, correct?

The Statare system was abolished in 1945. People still live that experienced it.

Just a friendly History lesson about Sweden.

When I served, in winter, we sometimes ( as much as we could) used the comfort of farmsteads. Sleep th the barn, shower, gratefully accepted food and water. As a thank you, we did a bit of work, cut wood, maybe did some repairs or shovel,ed snow. Serviced his machinery.
I, as a gun nut, used to service the farmers guns.

 

[Toddy]

The only thing we have close to that are the colliery bondagers. These were hereditary families thirled to the Forth coalfields regardless of who owned them. Originally the servants of the monks who owned the lands, their family's labour was the property of the coalfield owners….though the owners did have a responsibility to see them housed and fed and cared for in old age.
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/316.html

M

 

[Janne]

Interesting!

I do not want to venture into politics, so remove this if unsuitable!

In todays Czech Republic there was an industrialist called Tomas Bata. He created a kind of Utopian environment for the workers.
Did not pay much but organized functional and healthy housing, preschools, schools, hospital, plus old age housing with pensions.
Despite very low monetary wages, the good working conditions together with the benefits ensured him a happy, high producing workforce.

He did those utopian factories and communities around the world, France, US, Canada and so on.
Bata became the largest shoe producer in the world.

He basically started producing off the peg shoes. Cheap, goid quality. Ruined many small custom shoe factories.

Weinbrenner outdoor boots are a Bata brand.

 

[Toddy]

We had Robert Owen doing much the same thing here at New Lanark in the late 1700's, in the early days of the Industrial Revolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark
http://www.newlanark.org/world-heritage-site/

It works fine, so long as the industry makes products that are commercially viable and the population remains relatively stable. Doesn't do much for individual entrepreurialship or for development of new ideas unless there is attention paid to the extra education of the 'lad o' pairts', the clever ones who have that spark of something just a bit extra in the mind, and take ideas and industries forward.

M

 

[Hammock_man]

While there may be some fine points to the set up and time in that neck of the woods would be nice, it still remains that this is a for profit setup looking for VERY cheap labour to enhance to holidays of fee paying visitors.

 

[Toddy]

I don't see it, I really don't. The most that kind of work can expect is minimum wage. I explained the figures earlier….and having looked again the cheapest, "special offer two nights only", accommodation I can find is £17 a night and it's a fair travel to the site to work.

It must have some appeal looking at the number of 'volunteers' they've had over the years who were happy to be on their pages, and that they still get people volunteering too now.

It's a low key, laid back, family site of a few acres. They're not making a fortune out of it, that's for certain.

M

 

[Janne]

I wonder if they have many animals?
One bonus with that place is properly grown veg and hopefully properly reared animals!

 

[Nomad64]

Thank you Toddy for maintaining a dignified sense of perspective and common sense. :You_Rock_

Modern day slavery, people trafficking and the exploitation of immigrants are serious and complicated issues but despite all the hysteria this thread has generated, this seems a simple and benign case of a small business offering to exchange time in a spectacular environment, good company and a great experience for basic board and lodging. IIRC, the min/living wage rate for a first year apprentice (a rough but reasonable comparable) if £3.50 an hour = £17.50 - good luck finding food and accommodation for double that!

Is anybody had bothered to read the link I posted earlier, this is exactly what Wwoofers (World Wide Opportunities On Organic Farms) offer.

https://www.wwoof.org.uk

Wwoofers is a charity but the farms on which volunteers work in return for their labour and sometimes specialist expertise are not. For those with an unhealthy obsession with such details, there is a page on their website dealing with immigration issues.

If volunteers in the Cairngorms are bending immigration rules, then frankly I don't care - they don't look like they are being forced to work in massage parlours, pick cockles for a £1 a day and (although you never can tell) it seems unlikely that they are running guns or preaching religious hate! Janne if you are going to get agitated about this kind of thing and insist that the perpetrators must be "informed on", your head would explode if you ever realised what goes on in those shiny Cayman Islands banks and lawyers, accountants and company formation agents offices!

When I served, in winter, we sometimes ( as much as we could) used the comfort of farmsteads. Sleep th the barn, shower, gratefully accepted food and water. As a thank you, we did a bit of work, cut wood, maybe did some repairs or shovel,ed snow. Serviced his machinery. I, as a gun nut, used to service the farmers guns.

My belief that all work should be rewarded by monetary means, except voluntary charity work

Thank you for your service but there does seem to be just a slight contradiction between these statements. I assume that in fact you submitted an invoice to the farmer for your labour (on the appropriate Swedish army form) and as "the law is the law", took the opportunity to inform the authorities of any breaches of farming or other regulations however minor.

This is not building a school, bringing water to the poor, saving babies, it is a PROFIT making setup.
I have no issue with making a profit, non at all, I really really tried to do it when I was self employed. This is just taking advantage. As they are after someone with a decent skillset this is not just 25 hours of minimum wage. Looking at the number of photos of past people this is an ongoing requirement. This means there is some young person in that neck of the woods who is out of a job, even a part time job. But its not like they are charging £57.50 per night per person.

Yes they are a business but we are not talking about Butlins. Some businesses particularly small family or cooperatively run ones with sound with sound ethical principles deserve to be supported either by using them (even though the same or similar goods and services could be got from a large chain or multinational) or by providing practical support.

As for "building a school" etc. - the developing world is awash with shiny faced kids on gap years wanting to pad out their cvs and well meaning pensioners who have paid travel agents and holiday companies for the opportunity to wield paint brushes in an African village so they can get a warm fuzzy glow and post pictures on Twitface of the great work they are doing. There is a lot of profit to be made in volunteering and charitable works - just not by the people who need it. I've been lucky enough to spend a fair bit of time in Africa and have seen first hand, the chaos caused by well meaning but I'll conceived charity work and volunteers.

Yes, volunteering does have potentially negative consequences and it is possible that a local lad or lass in the Cairngorms is being deprived of a job opportunity but if all the business has to trade for a few hours work is free board, lodging and a great experience the no real harm done.

If I had the time, I would see this as great opportunity to spend time in a great place with interesting people.

 

[Arya]

I want a slave too!
Heck, I'll even through in meat and ready cooked meals for half of the work hours...

"Bring a compass. It's awkward when you have to eat a friend."

 

[Toddy]

It's not a slave, and it's offensive that you consider such workers in this way.

However, if you do want someone(s) to spend time on your property, learning and experiencing life in your neck of the woods, then follow Nomad64's link to Wwoof, they are a European wide (at least) organisation. If you genuinely have something to offer of interest, then you might well find yourself with some truly interesting companions who are prepared to work for board and lodging for a little while.

M