Varanger Camp or Seek Outside Tipi/Lavvu ?

[kevin_t]

Thanks for that Kevin, very informative, but you're not making the choice easier

Well, I want you to make the right choice for you, be it us or someone else. I do believe we make the best lightweight setup there is, but if you have other priorities, another choice may suit you better.

Most often, it comes down to what your primary objectives are and what those decision points are. For instance with our backpacks, it is usually sizing, organization etc. With tents, it is often sizing / weight and suitability for conditions you expect.
As always, let me know if I can provide any other assistance.
Kevin

 

[Andy BB]

Hi Martin. I'm the Seekoutside 8-man owner as mentioned earlier.

And like the Varanger owner/s above, I'm biased, so "buyer beware"!

As I see it, benefits of the SO is lightness, ease of use - I put mine up one-handed very quickly (four pegs, put in pole, and you're undercover. Take your time putting the other pegs in to "round it out"). Fantastic customer service from Kevin and his Mrs at SO (yes, even despite me being in the UK and them in the US), and the fact that they were specifically designed for hunters in the very inclement conditions found in the mountains in winter in the US. I have no concerns whatsoever in using it in any of the conditions likely to be found in Scandinavia in winter - been there, done that, and intend to do it again! Yes, the material is UV-protected, but wouldn't recommend leaving it up for months at a time, as all material on any tent will degrade if so treated.

Mossie protection? Mine has it on both doors (and having two full-length doors is really useful, particularly if the wind shifts!) It can also be pegged out in three different "sizes", useful if you need to have a smaller pitch, "normal" for most conditions, and the opportunity to peg it off the ground - ie the bottom of the tipi has an airgap - if you want more floor space and a nice draft in hot weather.

Leaks? Dunno - never had any on mine, and I've never bothered to seam-seal it - not necessary on a new 8-man, although you can if you want to. Personally, I dislike the "top-hat" arrangement of the Laavus - too much faffing about for a less than perfect weather-seal! I believe all SOs come with a stove jack in the ceiling - simply push the stove-pipe through it, and you're done. If you're not using the pipe, just pop down the external flap over the split. (Note, instead of cutting a hole in the stove jack to accommodate the pipe, simply make some radial cuts in the material and push the pipe through).

To give an idea of size, when Norwegian Air told me my hold luggage was a couple of kilos overweight, I simply pulled out the tent of the luggage and stuffed it into my (already partially-full) small rucksack used as carry-on. Try that with a Varanger 8-10!

Guy-out points? There is a second set of guy-out points on the SO if you need them, but I have never needed to do so, despite some fairly strong gales.

This is my second SO - I had the 6-man, and to be frank, it was perfect for my needs - ie one man camping with table, chair, stove and plenty of space to lunge around in. "glamping, I think they call it! But the wide-open spaces of the 8-man proved irresistable And with only a kg or so weight penalty, why not?

Re floors, that a really interesting one. In the past, all my tents had built-in floors, for all the usual reasons - stops water coming in, etc etc. But now, I wouldn't pay you to give me a floor! Sure, put a tarp down if you want protection under your bedding etc, but not having to mop up pools of water from wet clothes, condensation, spills and so on, wiping off mud transferred into the tent from muddy boots, not worrying about having stones/sticks etc putting holes into the floor - the list is endless!

THe argument about car camping - ie that weight/pack size isn't important - is valid to an extent. But only to an extent. Heavy tents are more of a pain to carry - larger pack size, more difficult to erect, need more guying to keep it taut particularly in a gale - and all those lines create further drag - and are more difficult to dry out once you're home after a typical British/European trip!

Finally, would be interesting to see how many of those with Scandinavian Laavus have since sold them on I only sold my 6-man SO to get the 8-man!

 

[Orchard]

Hi Martin. I'm the Seekoutside 8-man owner as mentioned earlier.

And like the Varanger owner/s above, I'm biased, so "buyer beware"!

As I see it, benefits of the SO is lightness, ease of use - I put mine up one-handed very quickly (four pegs, put in pole, and you're undercover. Take your time putting the other pegs in to "round it out"). Fantastic customer service from Kevin and his Mrs at SO (yes, even despite me being in the UK and them in the US), and the fact that they were specifically designed for hunters in the very inclement conditions found in the mountains in winter in the US. I have no concerns whatsoever in using it in any of the conditions likely to be found in Scandinavia in winter - been there, done that, and intend to do it again! Yes, the material is UV-protected, but wouldn't recommend leaving it up for months at a time, as all material on any tent will degrade if so treated.

Mossie protection? Mine has it on both doors (and having two full-length doors is really useful, particularly if the wind shifts!) It can also be pegged out in three different "sizes", useful if you need to have a smaller pitch, "normal" for most conditions, and the opportunity to peg it off the ground - ie the bottom of the tipi has an airgap - if you want more floor space and a nice draft in hot weather.

Leaks? Dunno - never had any on mine, and I've never bothered to seam-seal it - not necessary on a new 8-man, although you can if you want to. Personally, I dislike the "top-hat" arrangement of the Laavus - too much faffing about for a less than perfect weather-seal! I believe all SOs come with a stove jack in the ceiling - simply push the stove-pipe through it, and you're done. If you're not using the pipe, just pop down the external flap over the split. (Note, instead of cutting a hole in the stove jack to accommodate the pipe, simply make some radial cuts in the material and push the pipe through).

To give an idea of size, when Norwegian Air told me my hold luggage was a couple of kilos overweight, I simply pulled out the tent of the luggage and stuffed it into my (already partially-full) small rucksack used as carry-on. Try that with a Varanger 8-10!

Guy-out points? There is a second set of guy-out points on the SO if you need them, but I have never needed to do so, despite some fairly strong gales.

This is my second SO - I had the 6-man, and to be frank, it was perfect for my needs - ie one man camping with table, chair, stove and plenty of space to lunge around in. "glamping, I think they call it! But the wide-open spaces of the 8-man proved irresistable And with only a kg or so weight penalty, why not?

Re floors, that a really interesting one. In the past, all my tents had built-in floors, for all the usual reasons - stops water coming in, etc etc. But now, I wouldn't pay you to give me a floor! Sure, put a tarp down if you want protection under your bedding etc, but not having to mop up pools of water from wet clothes, condensation, spills and so on, wiping off mud transferred into the tent from muddy boots, not worrying about having stones/sticks etc putting holes into the floor - the list is endless!

THe argument about car camping - ie that weight/pack size isn't important - is valid to an extent. But only to an extent. Heavy tents are more of a pain to carry - larger pack size, more difficult to erect, need more guying to keep it taut particularly in a gale - and all those lines create further drag - and are more difficult to dry out once you're home after a typical British/European trip!

Finally, would be interesting to see how many of those with Scandinavian Laavus have since sold them on I only sold my 6-man SO to get the 8-man!

Hahaha, is it coincidence that you surface once Twodogs is abroad ?

Thanks for the comprehensive synopsis, it's very useful, and supports the abstract conclusions we've come to over the weekend.

Regarding flooring, I think we'll get a large space blanket and a lightweight bathtub nest for floor options when we have little pitching choice in adverse conditions. And it probably adds considerable chore to break camp and have 20 sqm of damp/sodden groundsheet to stow and dry.
Like you say with the size, an SO based camp would lend itself to spontaneous camping (even in winter), because of its size and footprint in the car, as well as trecking use when we are able to resume.


Do you have any more tips please Andy ?

Thanks for your help everybody !

Nick

 

[Andy BB]

Well, one thing I found useful was the SO "nest". THis is like a mini-tent inside the SO tipi - mesh covered front with integral floor, so you can put your bed in and not worry about mossies attacking in the night if one has crept in when you entered the tipi proper! The rest of the nest is made up of lightweight material (and I've used it on its own in good weather - does that mean I'm an ultra-lighter?!) It does add a bit of warmth at night after the stove has gone out in the early hours...

THere are some really good stoves on the market that flat-pack - I've had both the Kifaru and SO ones - ridiculously light (the Titanium ones even more so) and take up very little room - even the stovepipe as it just rolls up into a 12inch long tube! They don't retain heat for as long as the cast-iron ones, but on the other hand they only weigh a pound or two, compared to the 35-70lbs of a cast-iron stove. They do on the other hand produce almost instant heat, and if you load them up will produce almost sauna-like conditions even at sub-zero temps. Top tip - if you can't cut wood on your site, a brilliant alternative are the "hollow logs" from Homebase - NOT the crackle logs/firestarter logs which are loaded with paraffin etc. Produce super heat and last about 2 hours.

Because most tipis - including the SO and Varanger - have the option or standard fitment of a "clothes" line high up, they are ideal - with a stove - for drying out wet gear. Don't overload it though with heavy, sodden jackets - will affect the tent shape adversely. Superb however for drying lesser gear, particularly as the temp - with a stove - gets hotter the higher up you go (as hot air rises, but you already knew that!). Another advantage of the SO stovepipe jack over the Laavu, is that, unlike the top-hat arrangement, there's very little "airgap" around the pipe for the hot air to escape from.

 

[Orchard]

Well, one thing I found useful was the SO "nest". THis is like a mini-tent inside the SO tipi - mesh covered front with integral floor, so you can put your bed in and not worry about mossies attacking in the night if one has crept in when you entered the tipi proper! The rest of the nest is made up of lightweight material (and I've used it on its own in good weather - does that mean I'm an ultra-lighter?!) It does add a bit of warmth at night after the stove has gone out in the early hours...

The SO nest's too small for the three of us, however they're introducing a half inner for the six and eight man tipi's soon, which was very tempting, however I reckon i'll still need two liners as well, and this would take me WAY over our budget. I'd already emailed Oookworks for a rough quote for an inner before Kevin mentioned that they were working on inners, but I haven't heard anything from them, although i've subsequently seen these:

@£110

and

@£60

-which should hopefully fit the bill for dropping in when we crash, in conjunction with a large space blanket, for the time being.

THere are some really good stoves on the market that flat-pack - I've had both the Kifaru and SO ones - ridiculously light (the Titanium ones even more so) and take up very little room - even the stovepipe as it just rolls up into a 12inch long tube! They don't retain heat for as long as the cast-iron ones, but on the other hand they only weigh a pound or two, compared to the 35-70lbs of a cast-iron stove. They do on the other hand produce almost instant heat, and if you load them up will produce almost sauna-like conditions even at sub-zero temps. Top tip - if you can't cut wood on your site, a brilliant alternative are the "hollow logs" from Homebase - NOT the crackle logs/firestarter logs which are loaded with paraffin etc. Produce super heat and last about 2 hours.

I'll be going for the SO Ti thanks, it's so complementary! I'll have to remember the Homebase log tip cheers

Because most tipis - including the SO and Varanger - have the option or standard fitment of a "clothes" line high up, they are ideal - with a stove - for drying out wet gear. Don't overload it though with heavy, sodden jackets - will affect the tent shape adversely. Superb however for drying lesser gear, particularly as the temp - with a stove - gets hotter the higher up you go (as hot air rises, but you already knew that!). Another advantage of the SO stovepipe jack over the Laavu, is that, unlike the top-hat arrangement, there's very little "airgap" around the pipe for the hot air to escape from.

Good point, i'd never thought about that
What do you use for your light drying 'rack' ?

Thanks for your help again

 

[Andy BB]

Basically, a length of paracord or other bit of line passed through the loops provided in the upper part of the tent. So you get a 360degree drying line.

As far as the "whole tent" nest is concerned, I personally wouldn't want one - see earlier comments re floor. The liners - half or full - are decent options, but for 1 person the nest was easier and lighter. The main benefits of the liners is to cut down on any condensation and to provide bit more insulation, but to me seemed unnecessary if you have a decent stove. THis keeps any condensation at bay anyway, and the liner/s add additional weight that I don't really need - even in Norway in winter.

Re the SO Ti stove, be sure to ask for the thicker legs. Both myself and Bare Thrills had problems with the initial legs bending. The thicker legs - provided at no cost by Kevin once I mentioned it to him - are fine though.

There is another stove you might want to look at if the ability to flat-pack isn't essential. The Four-Dog Ti stoves are very nice indeed, but costly http://fourdog.com/ultra-light-i-ti-camp-stove/
THese are heavier than the SO or Kifaru options, and the "firebox" isn't collapsible, although the stovepipe is still a roll-up. Lovely bit of kit though!

Kifaru and Ti Goat are now doing Ti stoves where the sides of the firebox are ovalish in shape, and roll-up like the stovepipe. Never seen one in the flesh, but first impressions of the youtube videos is that they look a bit flimsy. But to be fair to Kifaru, their kit is normally well-tested, so I'm probably getting a false impression of their solidity.

 

[Orchard]

Basically, a length of paracord or other bit of line passed through the loops provided in the upper part of the tent. So you get a 360degree drying line.

Hahaha, I should be able to manage that

As far as the "whole tent" nest is concerned, I personally wouldn't want one - see earlier comments re floor. The liners - half or full - are decent options, but for 1 person the nest was easier and lighter. The main benefits of the liners is to cut down on any condensation and to provide bit more insulation, but to me seemed unnecessary if you have a decent stove. THis keeps any condensation at bay anyway, and the liner/s add additional weight that I don't really need - even in Norway in winter.

We've a young daughter that'll be with us, so my main reasons are bug protection for her, and initially moisture rising from the ground from our soggy Nation. I think a three man nest will suffice whilst we assess it

Re the SO Ti stove, be sure to ask for the thicker legs. Both myself and Bare Thrills had problems with the initial legs bending. The thicker legs - provided at no cost by Kevin once I mentioned it to him - are fine though.

Thanks for that, i'd forgotten that i'd read about that on here, i'll have a word before I place my order!

There is another stove you might want to look at if the ability to flat-pack isn't essential. The Four-Dog Ti stoves are very nice indeed, but costly http://fourdog.com/ultra-light-i-ti-camp-stove/
THese are heavier than the SO or Kifaru options, and the "firebox" isn't collapsible, although the stovepipe is still a roll-up. Lovely bit of kit though!

Kifaru and Ti Goat are now doing Ti stoves where the sides of the firebox are ovalish in shape, and roll-up like the stovepipe. Never seen one in the flesh, but first impressions of the youtube videos is that they look a bit flimsy. But to be fair to Kifaru, their kit is normally well-tested, so I'm probably getting a false impression of their solidity.

They look amazing, and guranteed for life too. I also had an eye on Kni-co stoves http://www.kni-co.com/, but I think the SO should be good (with decent legs, lol), and ideal with it packing down. Besides, depending on how our daughter reacts to it, we may have to move it on, but fingers crossed!
I don't fancy the cylinder ones because of perceived durability either, they'll be difficult to remove ash too, no ?
Talking about Kifaru, once we recover from this purchase, we'll be looking for a decent versatile compression pack. Top of the list is the Eberlestock J51 Warhammer and a few extras http://www.eberlestock.com/J51M%20Warhammer.htm, but at 4kg it's bloomin heavy; I don't suppose you have any experience of the Kifaru Hunting Cargo Panel and Bikini frame, or other options do you please ?

 

[Andy BB]

Sorry - I'm not a great back-pack hiker! My packs tend to be overkill - more durability that cutting-edge lightness. My Saracen weighs about 4kg, but will confidently survive the apocalypse, along with cockroaches

Although - looking at your Eberlestock link - I'm astonished anyone would build a pack system around the old US Alice frame! From what I've read over the years, the Alice pack frame is generally considered to be incredibly uncomfortable compared to more modern systems. But I have no personal experience of them, so best get someone who has! Ditto the Kifaru packs, although as with most kifaru stuff I'm sure its well-made and well-tested, although occasionally they do get a bit weird eg the owner refuses to provide external flaps to his tent zips, because they provide "ventilation" thats required for safety. The fact that they also leak, dripping water into the tent underneath them is considered a price worth paying. No, it makes no sense to me either, as only zipping down to an inch or so above the floor, leaving an airgap, would do the same thing...

Just a warning about stoves and young children. When in use the stove and stovepipe surfaces on lightweight stoves can get incredibly hot - loaded up the stove and first foot or two of the stovepipe can literally glow red. You'll need to keep a close eye on them if you combine kis and stoves!

 

[Orchard]

Sorry - I'm not a great back-pack hiker! My packs tend to be overkill - more durability that cutting-edge lightness. My Saracen weighs about 4kg, but will confidently survive the apocalypse, along with cockroaches

Haha, yea, at this price point (with add-ons, etc), I expect durability too, just unsure whether the start-weight's worth it for the versatility i'd get...

Although - looking at your Eberlestock link - I'm astonished anyone would build a pack system around the old US Alice frame! From what I've read over the years, the Alice pack frame is generally considered to be incredibly uncomfortable compared to more modern systems. But I have no personal experience of them, so best get someone who has!

Their re-engineering of the incorporation of the base Alice Pack's supposed to have been good:

-and some guy's done a (presumably independent) review comparing their J-series Alice pack with its bigger brother with a modern frame system and he seems to prefer it, if you're interested:

[video=youtube;iMUv-KDK98U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUv-KDK98U[/video]

But yep, I should have reservations when I need to order from the US, and can't try it before hand

Ditto the Kifaru packs, although as with most kifaru stuff I'm sure its well-made and well-tested, although occasionally they do get a bit weird eg the owner refuses to provide external flaps to his tent zips, because they provide "ventilation" thats required for safety. The fact that they also leak, dripping water into the tent underneath them is considered a price worth paying. No, it makes no sense to me either, as only zipping down to an inch or so above the floor, leaving an airgap, would do the same thing...

Hahaha, i've read about that debate somewhere, SO are defo championing this aspect

Just a warning about stoves and young children. When in use the stove and stovepipe surfaces on lightweight stoves can get incredibly hot - loaded up the stove and first foot or two of the stovepipe can literally glow red. You'll need to keep a close eye on them if you combine kis and stoves!

Thanks for the concern ! It'll certainly be with strict supervision, with an eye on getting a 'dog cage' (as devised by a chap on here iirc) to supplement the security if she's okay with hot camping

They certainly look well hot in some of the shots taken in the dark

 

[kevin_t]

Haha, yea, at this price point (with add-ons, etc), I expect durability too, just unsure whether the start-weight's worth it for the versatility i'd get...



Their re-engineering of the incorporation of the base Alice Pack's supposed to have been good:

-and some guy's done a (presumably independent) review comparing their J-series Alice pack with its bigger brother with a modern frame system and he seems to prefer it, if you're interested:

[video=youtube;iMUv-KDK98U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUv-KDK98U[/video]

But yep, I should have reservations when I need to order from the US, and can't try it before hand



Hahaha, i've read about that debate somewhere, SO are defo championing this aspect



Thanks for the concern ! It'll certainly be with strict supervision, with an eye on getting a 'dog cage' (as devised by a chap on here iirc) to supplement the security if she's okay with hot camping

They certainly look well hot in some of the shots taken in the dark

Not to be to much of a salesman, but we make a really nice pack as well, capable of obscene loads. Check out the Paradox Pack review on backpackinglight.com . The primary advantages of our packs are pretty weather tight, using durable water proof fabric, very light (most people get a great set up for 3.5 lbs) and highly adaptable. I'm not trying to drain your wallet to much, but you can save on shipping by getting them both sent at the same time.

I guess I'll need to check on sponsorship here if I keep fielding questions

Cheers
Kevin

 

[Andy BB]

Dog cage sounds good idea. Problem with the stove pipe is that its in such a convenient place to steady yourself in the tipi if you trip over something or otherwise over-balance (in the same way that the centre pole is). And you REALLY don't want to be grabbing the bottom few feet of the stove pipe when the fire's roaring in the stove!
Like the stove pic. I have one somewhere when I had the stove fully-loaded with the "hole" logs in my first "proper" tipi - a Kifaru 4-man. The whole tent was glowing in the dark like an alien spaceship - a genuine "close encounter" . The flames shooting 3 feet out of the top of the pipe were even more impressive

 

[Orchard]

Dog cage sounds good idea. Problem with the stove pipe is that its in such a convenient place to steady yourself in the tipi if you trip over something or otherwise over-balance (in the same way that the centre pole is). And you REALLY don't want to be grabbing the bottom few feet of the stove pipe when the fire's roaring in the stove!

That'll be a reflex to shed before the first base, hope you haven't first-hand experience of it
Good tip though, make sure there are no obstructions in Winter, thanks!

Like the stove pic. I have one somewhere when I had the stove fully-loaded with the "hole" logs in my first "proper" tipi - a Kifaru 4-man. The whole tent was glowing in the dark like an alien spaceship - a genuine "close encounter" . The flames shooting 3 feet out of the top of the pipe were even more impressive

Hahaha, you're going to have to find that photo., Jeebus !

I *plan* to take it quite easy with it, especially at first, and not fully load it and enjoy the warmth it bestows, not forge on it, lol

 

[Orchard]

Managed to get it up at the weekend, well chuffed with it so far, i'll write a review once we've used it a bit more

 

[Quixoticgeek]

... adaptability needed for wilderness style travel in almost any environment, while providing an easy living environment. As such, we really focus on reducing weight and keeping bulk to a minimum as well as being adaptable to the conditions at hand...
Let me know if you have any other questions.

What material is the part of the tent the stove pipe goes through?

How well do the different fabrics function when the mercury starts to drop? In temps in the region of -30°C - -40°C do they handle any differently to how they would at higher temperatures?

Do you have any data on extreme conditions the SO tents have been used in? Winds, Rainfall/Snowfall, Temperatures?

Cheers

J

 

[Orchard]

Whilst you're waiting for a more learned response, i'll offer what limited knowledge I can to help you out.

What material is the part of the tent the stove pipe goes through?

SO's website [ http://store.seekoutside.com/ ] states 'made of stove jack material', and suggests fibre glass elsewhere iirc, it's thick and flexible, presumably fibre glass embedded in silicone. I'll take photo's if you wish.

How well do the different fabrics function when the mercury starts to drop? In temps in the region of -30°C - -40°C do they handle any differently to how they would at higher temperatures?

No idea sorry, but BareThrills uses his a lot on northern exped's iirc, and they see a lot of use at high altitude in the snow in the US / Canada / Alaska and a Welsh garden.

Do you have any data on extreme conditions the SO tents have been used in? Winds, Rainfall/Snowfall, Temperatures?

No idea on the 'data' i'm afraid, but a YouTube search leads to a few user movies that'll provide context, as well as the official ones.
Hope this helps