Varanger Camp or Seek Outside Tipi/Lavvu ?

[Orchard]

I can't make my mind up which to go for (Varanger 8-10, or SO 8 man), and if i'm going to buy SO, i'll need to order soon as they're built to order.
It's for two adults and a young child, and will be car based, frequent short breaks (1-2 nights) throughout the UK.
Weight: Varanger 11.3kg / 25kg winter
SO 5kg + groundsheet ( we could use a Varanger 8-10 which is 1.5kg) / 7kg + groundsheet Winter

Cost: Both come in around 1.5k with inners/groundsheet/stove.

Space and weight could be an issue with our car being an Toyota Auris.

Will we miss the 'bells and whistles' of the Varanger ?
Should we be concerned that SO's based in the States, in case something's wrong ?

Would the simplicity of the SO lend itself more to frequent, anywhere usage, and yet still provide a comfortable family shelter ?

Any advice is much appreciated please

 

[Twodogs]

If its for family camping its varanger all the way the spec is so much higher ,

Twodogs

 

[farfoodle]

Tamarack have the Varanger 8-10 with all the trimmings for £865 - http://www.tamarackoutdoors.co.uk/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=12552018

 

[Orchard]

If its for family camping its varanger all the way the spec is so much higher ,

Twodogs

You've used both haven't you ?
Spec in what sense please?

 

[Orchard]

Tamarack have the Varanger 8-10 with all the trimmings for £865 - http://www.tamarackoutdoors.co.uk/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=12552018

Thanks! That's who we'll use if we opt for it mate, but get the camp model for a bit extra

 

[Twodogs]

I haven't but have seen both in use andybb has a sekoutside ,,,
If its down to weight you have made your choice .

Twodogs

 

[Orchard]

I haven't but have seen both in use andybb has a sekoutside ,,,
If its down to weight you have made your choice .

Twodogs

Thanks mate, it's not only a weight issue, but i'm not sure what specs you're meaning. We'd go for the medium weight fabric with a SO, which isn't as waterproof as the Varanger, but 3000mm is more than sufficient for a lavvu isn't it?
Whilst both are seen by their users as almost bomb-proof, Helsport consider the Camp a 'Trek' model, whereas SO designs and fabrics are field tested and used in exposed mountainous areas, I think

 

[MartinK9]

I'd go with the Varanger, but I'm biased.

Plenty of tie down points as standard.

 

[Twodogs]

More mossie protection , more vents , better door , top hat cords , snow mats , and its made for europes weather loads of tie downs ..

 

[Orchard]

I'd go with the Varanger, but I'm biased.

Plenty of tie down points as standard.

Hahaha, been looking at your photo's loads over the last couple of weeks whilst getting an impression of the Camp, cheers!
The 1.5K each includes the SO with all options mate
Any ideas on relative fly strength over time?

 

[MartinK9]

Hahaha, been looking at your photo's loads over the last couple of weeks whilst getting an impression of the Camp, cheers!
The 1.5K each includes the SO with all options mate
Any ideas on relative fly strength over time?

Sorry can't help you there, You'll have to wait for a SO owner to answer that.

Is it seamed sealed or is that an add on too?

 

[Orchard]

Sorry can't help you there, You'll have to wait for a SO owner to answer that.

Is it seamed sealed or is that an add on too?

Seam sealing's an add-on, but included in my costing.

From Seek Outside's site:

"Lightweight 70 Denier:
Lightweight 70 Denier Silicone Coated Fabric: This is a heavier fabric, that performs very well and offers higher abrasion resistance. It has very good strength and shape retention. This fabric does not pack as small but is less susceptible to abrasions or punctures from something like a dog paw or falling tree branch. This fabric is about 50% stronger than the ultralight fabric. Fabric weight 2.6 ounces per sq yard."

I don't think this tells us much about the 'fabric' per se, i'll email them and ask them to kindly expand.

As an aside, Kevin at SO has been absolutely fantastic responding to my questions


Edit:

Helsport's:

"HELSPORT RAINGUARD® AND HELSPORT RAINGUARD® FR:
In our TREK-tents and Lavvus we use a specially developed polyester, Helsport Rainguard® which has a water column of minimum 4000 mm. The polyester is constructed to keep the flysheet taut under varying weather and temperature conditions. The fabric has an anti-mould treatment and in the lavvu a fire resistant version is used, the FR. This protects the flysheet, making it possible to use open flames safely inside the lavvu. "

 

[Orchard]

More mossie protection [1] , more vents [2] , better door [3], top hat cords [4], snow mats [5], and its made for europes weather loads of tie downs [6] ..

Thanks Twodogs, i'll come back to this in an edited version shortly

Okay, here goes, afaik:

1. More mossie protection: Yep, although i'd get no-see-um doors, afaik, the top vent isn't protected. Would this be a big deal, for example, in Scotland ?
2. More vents: Yep, although having them/it situated as they are on the SO may create better airing, perhaps...
2b. No bottom vents for hot tenting on the SO...
3. Better door: Do you mean the Camps 'protected entrance' ? If so, yep, some space is going to be lost on the SO, although the Camps door must create some drag and stress on the tent in inclement conditions, no ? Does it take long to set up the extended bit ? I think i've read somewhere that some have struggled, but it may be a lack of experience.
4. Top hat cords: Yep, it may not be easy for a shorty like myself to adjust the vents on the SO. On the otherhand I think water ingress in the centre of the lavvo is less likely with SO's design, especially with a designated stove port.
5. Snow mats: There's something similar, a 'Sod Skirt', that can be flipped out by using the internal bottom tie outs, if desired.
6. Tie downs: I'm not sure how the two compare when the SO has had it's additional ones. Wouldn't the Camp need more anyway because it has more drag from its shape ?

Others I can think of: Guy tensioners fitted to the Camp; Fairly heavy duty stove

Provisional conclusions:
a) Venting - just how well vented is the SO ?
b) Fabric - which fabric has superior longevity and strength (all things being equal) ?

 

[kevin_t]

Thanks Twodogs, i'll come back to this in an edited version shortly

The Varanger looks like an excellent choice for more of a car camp, base camp style solution. The Seek Outside tents are really focused on a design that lends itself well to the adaptability needed for wilderness style travel in almost any environment, while providing an easy living environment. As such, we really focus on reducing weight and keeping bulk to a minimum as well as being adaptable to the conditions at hand. For instance, you can use flexi pitch to pitch the tent smaller if you can not find a large enough suitable space. You can also use the dual entrances and pitch the tent larger and partly open at the doors. You will notice all of our designs have dual doors, which allows better venting options, easier access in and out without crawling over one another etc (this is especially relevant on the smaller tents like the Lil Bug Out Shelter). Fabric comparison, the Tan is essentially a 70D silnylon, so it does have the increased abrasion resistance, however it does not have as high a hydrostatic rating as some of our other fabrics, mostly due to US EPA regulations. The combination of using nylon 6.6 , and silicone as a waterproofing agent creates a fabric that is very strong for it's weight because it does have some stretch. I suspect a more apples to apples comparison to the Varanger line would be our True TImber Camo fabric, which has a very high water proof rating and is a nylon / polyester blend construction. When you look at the Seek Outside features, you see most of them are based around performance and adaptability in poor weather. For instance, we recently (last fall) changed our venting to allow the vents to be closed. The reason was simply for reducing noise in high wind environments. I do notice the top closure of most of the european style tents are a lot different, and I suspect this is for running an open fire inside. I'm not sure how much success you have with that approach, but we are designed specifically for using a wood stove for heat and or cooking. I have seen one tent with that style venting and it seemed finicky to me, granted I did not spend much time with it and perhaps it was just poorly done.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks
Kevin

 

[Twodogs]

Loads of tie downs on the varanger ,



Nice big door on the standard varanger



Works well in snow ,



There is mossie protection a the top hat area , bad picture



Plus thay look good on photos,






Maybe worth flying to Oslo for one ,,, get your tax back



But the SO is a nice tent ,,,,,, your call

Twodogs

 

[Orchard]

Thanks loads mate, love the images !
Is that an 8-10 or 12-14 in the garden ? It looks massive there...
You're right, I don't think i'll be dissapointed with either, but it's a lot of money for us, and I want to make the right call !
Thanks again for your help

 

[MartinK9]

Thanks loads mate, love the images !
Is that an 8-10 or 12-14 in the garden ? It looks massive there...
You're right, I don't think i'll be dissapointed with either, but it's a lot of money for us, and I want to make the right call !
Thanks again for your help

Pop along to the Northwood Meet next weekend and have a good look at mine.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116583

A good excuse to get out for a weekend too.

 

[Twodogs]

Its a 12/14 to big for me so I sold it ,,,

Why not drive up to tamarack have a good luck and see if thay will do you a cash deal.

Twodogs

 

[Orchard]

Pop along to the Northwood Meet next weekend and have a good look at mine.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116583

A good excuse to get out for a weekend too.

Cheers mate, that's very kind and would have been ace (the fam would love it too), but we've got to go to a family do over the weekend

Its a 12/14 to big for me so I sold it ,,,

Why not drive up to tamarack have a good luck and see if thay will do you a cash deal.

Twodogs

Because I haven't made my mind up yet !?! I don't think they'd drop much further than the 'bundle' deal would they ? I suppose we'd be getting the stove too, if we went that route

 

[Orchard]

The Varanger looks like an excellent choice for more of a car camp, base camp style solution. The Seek Outside tents are really focused on a design that lends itself well to the adaptability needed for wilderness style travel in almost any environment, while providing an easy living environment. As such, we really focus on reducing weight and keeping bulk to a minimum as well as being adaptable to the conditions at hand. For instance, you can use flexi pitch to pitch the tent smaller if you can not find a large enough suitable space. You can also use the dual entrances and pitch the tent larger and partly open at the doors. You will notice all of our designs have dual doors, which allows better venting options, easier access in and out without crawling over one another etc (this is especially relevant on the smaller tents like the Lil Bug Out Shelter). Fabric comparison, the Tan is essentially a 70D silnylon, so it does have the increased abrasion resistance, however it does not have as high a hydrostatic rating as some of our other fabrics, mostly due to US EPA regulations. The combination of using nylon 6.6 , and silicone as a waterproofing agent creates a fabric that is very strong for it's weight because it does have some stretch. I suspect a more apples to apples comparison to the Varanger line would be our True TImber Camo fabric, which has a very high water proof rating and is a nylon / polyester blend construction. When you look at the Seek Outside features, you see most of them are based around performance and adaptability in poor weather. For instance, we recently (last fall) changed our venting to allow the vents to be closed. The reason was simply for reducing noise in high wind environments. I do notice the top closure of most of the european style tents are a lot different, and I suspect this is for running an open fire inside. I'm not sure how much success you have with that approach, but we are designed specifically for using a wood stove for heat and or cooking. I have seen one tent with that style venting and it seemed finicky to me, granted I did not spend much time with it and perhaps it was just poorly done.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks
Kevin

Thanks for that Kevin, very informative, but you're not making the choice easier