TV Licence and iPlayer

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
Using a tabloid is hardly adding strenght to your argument, it hasn't been a news paper since the 70's. Missing the point that no one goes to jail over not paying a TV licence is convenient....

Pay, don't pay I could care less.....

Adding strength to my argument? What are you blathering about... I picked the first link at random that mentioned the fact that people are going to jail, if you hadn't have said, I'd never have known what media outlet published it because its irrelevant... but you want to make an issue over what newspaper it is? :lmao: That's your own bias showing through.

People go to prison for not paying the TV license... what were they in court for? So they get a fine and refuse to pay it (or can't pay it) they go to prison. They're not going to prison because they committed a violent crime, its because they didn't buy a tv license, then refused/couldn't pay the fine for not having a tv license. You're arguing semantics... that really is convenient eh? You really don't like admitting you were wrong on the whole prison thing do you?! :p

Pay or don't pay?? :confused: So you've not really bothered reading the thread then? You're just joining in to make daft points that don't make any sense for whatever reason? I have a TV license, as I've pointed out. I pay for it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it... and if you'd actually read the thread you'd know I have valid reasons.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
I advise people on TV's,PVR's, etc. What they watch on them is their business.



ITV (or at least the franchises that make up ITV) started broadcasting in September 1955.



No, they didn't. DigitalUK made it very clear in the leaflet that was sent out to every household in the UK that all they needed to do was to make sure that their TV could get a digital signal. So all they needed to do was to buy a digitial receiver ('a gizmo' - which was about £18-25) if they didn't have one already, and part of the licence fee went towards that switchover, including paying for digiboxs (and even Sky) for certain categories of people.

Delighted as we were to sell people lots of new TV's and PVR's (a better idea for many anyway), we were more than happy to advise people what they really needed to get a digital signal (BTW - there is no such thing as a 'digital aerial', which scammed a fair number of people), and cautioned people about buying the wrong thing in a panic. Until last year, I had a CRT TV with a digibox, and it was fine. If people dumbed their old TV's, then it wasn't for lack of information or advice.


This can be answered at the same time as Dewi's 'So why not a 'We Cannae Git Na Stinkin Bradban Ya Wee Bazzas' license for those with intermittent or no signal to receive the iPlayer?' point.

The BBC gives lots of services (including stuff like LW, which is incredibly expensive considering just how few people use it), on lots of different platforms. They were nice enough to come up with Iplayer (which everyone else has copied), which, until this month, you didn't even need a TV licence to use. They can't be blamed if people dont want/can't have broadband (and the percentage of the population have used the internet is currently running around 87%), any more than you get a reduction on your licence because you can't listen to Radio 4 Extra, because you dont have a DAB radio. The TV Licence covers you having a TV/able to receive live TV - the rest is up to you. However, the licence fee is, in real terms, about as cheap as its been for a very long time - look at the chart below:

licencfee606.png




I dont like Capita either, but they now have the contract that the PO (now private of course) used to have, and they do a huge amount of work for the private and the public sector (hadn't heard of Paystation before). The TV Licencing website has a fair amount about which companies the BBC uses http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-about-tv-licensing-AB15 , and the contract with Capita was renewed in 2011 and will run until 2020. The cost of the contract as announced was £560m. The cost for 2014-15 was £101.4m, which:


http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-financial-information-AB19




I'm not ignoring the 3,500 people going through the couts every week, but I am putting them in context. In 2015, there were 27m households. In March 2014, 95% of them had TV's or watched live TV on another device. So thats 25.65m households. TV Licencing estimate the evasion/non payment rate to be about 5.1%. Which means that 24.34m households just paid them (OK, sometimes with some prompting - they write just under a million letters a year, and a fair number then pay it).

Your quoted figure of 3,500 people a week equals 182,000 per year (I had a figure from 2013 of 178,332 people in England and Wales https://recombu.com/digital/article/tv-licence-fee-myths-busted#, but add Scotland (15,000) and then a yearly varience, so close enough). 182k out of 25.65m is 0.709%. And out of that 178,332 people whose paperwork went through the courts that year, 153,369 were found guilty. So about 86%.

There are a number of anti-TV licence websites (with 'horror stories'), and a fair amount of footage of people filming TV Licencing Inspectors on Youtube. But there is no 'IhadavisitfromanicechapwhosaidthatstotallyOkbecauseyoudonthaveaTVandwewillputitonourrecords'com , nor is there any footage on Youtube of an licencing inspector looking at the back of someones TV, and saying, 'yes, thats fine, you've covered over the Belling Lee connection to the tuner and you've no aerial and your just watching DVD's. Have a nice day'.
Nor are there non angry letters in the papers saying 'I dont have a TV and dont pay the Licence Fee, but I do like listening to the radio, and really enjoy Ken Bruce's show in the morning'. Funny that.

As for whether the Tv Licence is good value, thats a very individual judgement.



True, no TV, no licence, no cost of the electricity, etc. However, the company paying for a product to be advertised anywhere still has to account for that cost, be it directly or indirectly. And that includes those teabags, the place you bought them from and the company who supplies the energy to boil the kettle.



No. Have a TV, dont have a TV, its up to the individual. However, if you've a TV/other device which can watch live TV, you need a licence. Freesat is pretty much Freeview for satellite users, and the channels that use it (which are very largely the same ones that use Freeview) pay to be part of it and be included in the EPG in much the same way. Using that platform has nothing at all to do with those '
who can't get the BBC' - its much more to do with what equipment you already have, and can you get a terrestial signal, and even if you can, how many channels you can get.



Once we get universal high speed (and by high speed, I mean South Korean high speed, not the UK version) broadband, we could stream everything. But thats unlikely to happen anytime soon, even if everyone wanted broadband, and the bandwidth needed would be vast, even without 4K. I've been promised jetpacks for a while, and they havn't happened either. And my broadband went down for a while last night, whereas the TV signal was perfect.

The Lords did stop an attempt at decriminalisation (and the Lords is the home of the great and the good, the sort of people who sit on the BBC Trust, etc), but frankly, the alternatives are currently unworkable. Advertising would bankrupt almost all the commercial channels, and subscription would require billion to be spent by all of us on new equipment and much increased annual costs, plus pretty much the death of public sector broadcasting. Even Whittingdale knew that, which was why he and his 'advisors' suggested 'voluntary subscription' to square the advantages of the licence fee with the ideological purity of its abolition (which didn't pass the laughter test).

And politicians can read polls - they know that they are generally much less popular than the BBC, and deciding on a course which results in getting rid of the Shipping Broadcast or Antiques Roadshow is tantamount to political suicide. The Labour Party, Lib Dems and all the nat. parties (the SNP has been stroppy, but they know where their bread is buttered) are all in favour of the BBC and the licence fee.

The BBC has always evolved, albeit often quite slowly in some areas, while being quite radical in others. Before WW2, the BBC could not report on events before they had been reported in the papers, lest the press barons faced competition. This didn't really work when the BBC was unable to report a bombing raid on London the listeners could hear live during a BBC broadcast. That changed. The BBC's monitoring service was direct result of WW2, and the World Service was a mix of broadcasting to Empire and the wartime broadcasting to the occupied countries. It was the BBC that introduced HD TV (as it then was) in 1964 (although the old 405 system had ben HD in 1936!), and its was BBC2 that was the first in Europe to introduce colour (the channels boss was David Attenborough - what happened to him?). And it was the BBC that introduced the worlds first teletext service, Ceefax, in 1974. They also developed NICAM, Iplayer, etc.

When the US Forces network during WW2 became more popular than the staid BBC programmes, the BBC stepped up popular entertainment (they did suggest jamming the US transmissions first!), and the same happened when the pirate stations started in the 60's - hence Radio 1, etc. So yes, the BBC has evolved, and will have to in the future.


We're experiencing Groundhog Day again... you're repeating yourself, so any response would in effect be repeating earlier reponses.

One thing I would like to point out is this repeated claim of yours that any alternatives to the TV License wouldn't work. There is one sure fire way that will work, close the BBC. The 'talent' will spread themselves out over the commercial channels, which the majority of those who make their name on the BBC do anyway... the programmes worth saving will be sold to different networks, and the buildings the BBC occupy are in prime areas, so they can be sold off. Job done.

Its not the only way, but it is a way and it would be workable.

And your definition of evolution in the BBC is very different from mine. I wasn't talking about the evolution of technology or how the BBC decided to spend the public's money, I was talking about the evolution of media, how it is delivered to the consumer. Every other media outlet is about freedom of choice, yet the BBC sticks to the 1940s model. It probably made a lot of sense back then, it doesn't now.... and applying the license fee to an internet delivery system? That isn't evolving, its tinkering to close the ever growing 'loopholes'.
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,260
464
none
I think stating the fact that people don't go to jail for not paying their TV Licence, but are jailed because they don't pay the fine, is a bit pedantic, its like saying you don't go to jail for drink driving, you go to jail for failing a breath test.

The root of all evil is money, and that is all of what the licence fee is about, ask yourself why, and what kind of Government or country, would charge a blind person who cant see a TV, a fee for watching it. albeit at a reduced rate.

And do the people abroad, who use the Iplayer and other BBC services need a licence?
I have just read in the Express that we have voted to leave the EU, almost believed it till I realised the tabloid hasn't been a newspaper since the 70,s

people get jailed for none payment of court appointed fines all the tine how is that news? Read what you like but arguing what the tabloids print is foolish going by their track records

I'd take what they say with massive pinch of salt since they are owned by the same company that owns channel 5 ;)
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,260
464
none
Adding strength to my argument? What are you blathering about... I picked the first link at random that mentioned the fact that people are going to jail, if you hadn't have said, I'd never have known what media outlet published it because its irrelevant... but you want to make an issue over what newspaper it is? :lmao: That's your own bias showing through.

People go to prison for not paying the TV license... what were they in court for? So they get a fine and refuse to pay it (or can't pay it) they go to prison. They're not going to prison because they committed a violent crime, its because they didn't buy a tv license, then refused/couldn't pay the fine for not having a tv license. You're arguing semantics... that really is convenient eh? You really don't like admitting you were wrong on the whole prison thing do you?! :p

Pay or don't pay?? :confused: So you've not really bothered reading the thread then? You're just joining in to make daft points that don't make any sense for whatever reason? I have a TV license, as I've pointed out. I pay for it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it... and if you'd actually read the thread you'd know I have valid reasons.

I read the thread, and all your posts. From your perspective you made valid points, from mine you didn't. I'll leave this thread to others as boredom has now set in...
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
There is one sure fire way that will work, close the BBC. The 'talent' will spread themselves out over the commercial channels, which the majority of those who make their name on the BBC do anyway... the programmes worth saving will be sold to different networks, and the buildings the BBC occupy are in prime areas, so they can be sold off. Job done.

I linked to a 100 page academic study https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/What%20if%20there%20were%20no%20BBC%20TV_0.pdf looking at what would happen if BBC TV vanished. Its conclusion was that the consumer would have less choice, probably lower quality programming (and certainly far less minority or public service programming), and there would be an economic impact on other media sectors, such as film making. There would even be an impact on the commercial channels, with the only net beneficiary being Sky. Your reply was to argue that the commercial sector would do all that stuff anyway - 'job done'. Could you link to something that has some actual figures to back that up?

I wasn't talking about the evolution of technology or how the BBC decided to spend the public's money, I was talking about the evolution of media, how it is delivered to the consumer. Every other media outlet is about freedom of choice, yet the BBC sticks to the 1940s model.

61% of TV is watched live (a 2015 Ofcom report said it was about 69%), and about 25% recorded (we probably used to record even more, since the percentage of homes with PVR's (72%) is lower than peak VCR ownership). The rest is streamed in some way, but even 16-24 year olds are close to that 61% if you add what they watch live, plus recorded plus streamed terrestrial channels (like Iplayer). The average number of TV's per home has slightly declined, with a single TV in the main room often being again the standard ( I can't remember the report off the top of my head, but its probably one from Ofcom), so we will perhaps watch some stuff on a tablet etc, but will tend to watch most still on the large main screen.

So in fact we often watch in much the same way our parents and grandparents did, even though we have the technology to record and watch almost at will.

Lets ask the question to all those whose families watched Bakeoff this week. How many watched live, how many recorded it , and how many streamed a bit later? Probably the bulk of them, although in the last two cases, I suspect they avoided discovering who'd gone out as much as possible. How many people would watch all the programmes back to back, boxset style, in six months time? Very few.

Adze - I've always liked that one, and your probably right. Still, its either this or mowing the lawn...
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
45
North Yorkshire, UK
I've never had a licence. I have owned a monitor and dvd/vhs player with a tuner, the inspecter came round, saw they were nowhere near any aerial cable and we didn't get hassled for a licence.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
I linked to a 100 page academic study https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/What%20if%20there%20were%20no%20BBC%20TV_0.pdf looking at what would happen if BBC TV vanished. Its conclusion was that the consumer would have less choice, probably lower quality programming (and certainly far less minority or public service programming), and there would be an economic impact on other media sectors, such as film making. There would even be an impact on the commercial channels, with the only net beneficiary being Sky. Your reply was to argue that the commercial sector would do all that stuff anyway - 'job done'. Could you link to something that has some actual figures to back that up?

Nope. I doubt there have been any studies done from the reverse perspective and for good reason, but even if there were studies, they'd be irrelevant... just as the academic study you've linked to is irrelevant. They don't know what would happen, all they can do is give a best guess answer based on the information they have at hand. I concede that brighter minds may well have it right, maybe the world would be poorer without the BBC, maybe it would benefit some commercial channels more than others and perhaps quality would fall (although given the subscription based services such as Amazon and NetFlix, I doubt it... arguably they facilitate the creation of better quality programmes than the BBC) It doesn't excuse the TV license being backed up with a law. The BBC needs to find a funding model alternative to the present system as the license fee can not be justified forever (in my opinion)... and for all your arguments about the BBC popularity, the ultimate test is to remove the legal threat and see how many people will voluntarily pay the license. If the BBC succeeds and thrives after that, I will then gladly concede that the BBC is a national treasure, the people's choice etc etc etc.

You've already brought up the 61% of TV is watched live and I've already provided an answer... we're going round in circles.

It would appear we're going to have to agree to disagree, which we probably could have done a few dozen posts back as neither of us is making a convincing point to the other, and the 'someone's wrong on the internet cartoon' has been played. Been interesting though... history will prove one of us right, one of us wrong.
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
Nope. I doubt there have been any studies done from the reverse perspective and for good reason, but even if there were studies, they'd be irrelevant... just as the academic study you've linked to is irrelevant. They don't know what would happen, all they can do is give a best guess answer based on the information they have at hand.

So any evidence, plans, data, modelling, research is irrelevant...because it just is.

Someone should tell government, private industry and academia not to bother with such things, and just go with their gut. What Stephen Colbert has called 'truthiness'.

It doesn't excuse the TV license being backed up with a law.
And yet it is, so there you go.

Your right - there is no point discussing an issue if someone replies to facts with 'opinions'. So I'm going to mow the lawn and then watch some telly.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
So any evidence, plans, data, modelling, research is irrelevant...because it just is.

Someone should tell government, private industry and academia not to bother with such things, and just go with their gut. What Stephen Colbert has called 'truthiness'.

Is that what I said? Err no, it wasn't... I conceded they may be right, but you've ignored that to make a silly point about an entertainer. Do I think the report is relevant to the overall issue? Nope... just as a lot of reports are commissioned but ultimately don't serve any purposes. You ask me to cite data which you know doesn't exist, just so you can say 'ugh, see... you can't show a link, therefore I'm right, you're wrong'.

Old Bones said:
And yet it is, so there you go.

Your right - there is no point discussing an issue if someone replies to facts with 'opinions'. So I'm going to mow the lawn and then watch some telly.

Equally there is no point discussing an issue with someone who ignores what has been said just so he can make a smart-****ed reply and pretend he's debating. Typical... I try to be diplomatic, bring the debate to a close in a civil manner... but you can't resist a couple of digs for the sake of it.

Like it loathe it, this entire debate has been about opinion, because your opinion is the TV license is a valid thing, my opinion is the opposite. What facts? You've thrown some facts up about perceived value for money or the effects of removing the TV license from best guessers into the mix.... and? What? Your opinion is its valid data, my opinion is it is irrelevant. But you're automatically right because you provided some links? Nope. :rolleyes:

[video=youtube;pWdd6_ZxX8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c[/video]
 

woodstock

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 7, 2007
3,568
68
68
off grid somewhere else
Reading through the thread personally I think it may have run its course, I have never paid them a single penny and challenged them to take me to a court De Jure which they declined to do, my punishment ? seems Im on their Black list.:rolleyes:
 

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,857
895
Cornwall
After losing the "Great British Bake Off"(or whatever its called) to Channel 4, after spending a fortune on adverts which turned this show into a big hit, and now can't afford to pay for it, and after losing Top Gear,The Voice, etc, because they cant bid high enough for the programmes, surely the case now is, the BBC is not fit for purpose, and therefore the Licence fee is a scam.
 

Nice65

Brilliant!
Apr 16, 2009
6,856
3,277
W.Sussex
Not to mention the F1 Grand Prix.

Though, as said above, this thread is creaking worse than the Beebs old floorboards. It's been a good read.
 

Sparky750

Tenderfoot
Dec 30, 2015
51
1
Merseyside
We haven't paid it for a few years now after a very threatening letter arrived because we where a couple of weeks late renewing due to us being away, we never watch the tv aside from Netflix, prime etc for the kids. Once we received said threatening letter I started the research on whether we actually needed one given our watching habits, turns out we didn't so cancelled online and haven't had any contact since.
If ever a time comes we need one I'll renew it but I believe it's such an archaic way to tax everyone for something and the whole Jimmy savile saga was apparently an open secret throughout the organisation.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
After losing the "Great British Bake Off"(or whatever its called) to Channel 4, after spending a fortune on adverts which turned this show into a big hit, and now can't afford to pay for it, and after losing Top Gear,The Voice, etc, because they cant bid high enough for the programmes, surely the case now is, the BBC is not fit for purpose, and therefore the Licence fee is a scam.

Good point.Grand Prix, champions league, top flight, cricket etc. If they actually safeguarded this for british broadcasting by paying the licence fee that would be ok , but you (if you want) pay a licence to hmg who lets sky charge you again, and for a 3rd time you get to sit through 15minutes in every hour of adverts. Talk about swinging the lead !
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
Good point.Grand Prix, champions league, top flight, cricket etc. If they actually safeguarded this for british broadcasting by paying the licence fee that would be ok , but you (if you want) pay a licence to hmg who lets sky charge you again, and for a 3rd time you get to sit through 15minutes in every hour of adverts. Talk about swinging the lead !

Or alternatively you might not be interested in any sports at all, but be forced to pay for it for everyone else to watch... talk about swinging the leg :D (and yes, I do mean swinging the leg)

Safeguarded? Okay, lets say for arguments sake there is a programme I watch... lets say Question Time. The BBC loses it to a commercial competitor (even though its a BBC programme, but bear with me) and the commercial competitor manages to keep the format, the presenter, everything exactly the same. The only difference is advert breaks, or as I like to view them... toilet breaks, brew breaks or a crafty ciggy at the back door breaks. Does it diminish the programme? Yep, by a whole 9 minutes. Would it stop me watching it? Nope. If I like the programme, I'd follow it to whatever commercial broadcaster had the rights.

I appreciate that the BBC is charged with the protection of television for the masses, but they fail abysmally. I don't like sport, I don't like soaps, I don't like baking.... I don't like dancing, I don't like antique shows, I can tolerate darts... I like snooker (and okay, its technically a sport, but there has to be a flaw in my argument somewhere), I don't like chat shows, I don't like the BBC's current crop of 'comedy' and I certainly don't appreciate the amount of BBC property that is too risque to air on the BBC, but perfectly fine to sell to UKGold for a nice tidy profit through BBC Worldwide.

I don't like singing contests, I don't like watching vets, I don't like some berk who thinks he knows everything about our climate lecturing me about coastal erosion when nothing is being done about it so he may as well be telling me I can't get a curry on a Saturday night in Dundee for all the relevance it is to me.

So... the alternatives. Well I can think of one. You want a programme with no advert breaks? You want to watch an entire hour of television without moving a muscle? Buy a DVD. Pay a subscription to a channel on the net that allows you to do it. Digitally record each 13.5 minute segment, painstakingly piece it together in some editing software, then burn it to a DVD, or watch it straight off a flash drive. £145 a year will buy you a lot of telly in the commercial world... and whilst there may be a lot of rubbish on commercial television, whether you watch it or not you are not threatened with the prospect of jail if you refuse to pay for it.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
How about breaking the bread

-or-

Flicking the leg

-or-

Singing simply red

The point being the licence fee started in an acess to all content age and maintainence fee. Public ervice is not there anymore, it has been augmented a great deal.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
Augmented? In what way?

Good point.Grand Prix, champions league, top flight, cricket etc. If they actually safeguarded this for british broadcasting by paying the licence fee that would be ok , but you (if you want) pay a licence to hmg who lets sky charge you again, and for a 3rd time you get to sit through 15minutes in every hour of adverts. Talk about swinging the lead !

The point being the licence fee started in an acess to all content age and maintainence fee. Public ervice is not there anymore, it has been augmented a great deal.

That...........
 

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