Trossachs-Loch Lomond problems

[w00dsmoke]

Unfortunatley I've been off my work for the last 12 days after being rushed into hospital for a few days, anyway after a lot of hassle and a lot of pain, yetserday my wife suggested taking me out for a short walk to get some fresh air etc. (It's usually me that suggests that). So off we went to the upper reaches of the River Forth near Aberfoyle. We had a lovely walk along the river in what is usually a fairly undisturbed/remoter stretch however unusually there were signs of fires/rubbish throughout the walk.

Anyway after the short walk we bumped into a pal of mine who works for the forestry commission and naturally the conversation came up about the mess "wild campers" were making. He told me that in addition to orgainised raves that were a regular occurrance in the summer deep in the woods (a tent with a complete drum kit inside was found far off the main road recently!), wild camping was becoming an increasing concern for all the landowners in the area. Their biggest concern was rubbish, fires (and cutting down trees), human waste and environmental damage. He explained that the forestry commission were looking into ways to prevent this. I told him about the last time I paddled on Loch Chon where even the islands had vast amounts of rubbish on them, from whole carpets, to sheets of plastic to fold up chairs and we agreed that Loch Lomond was no better. The police now patrol Loch Lomond via a motor boat and they certainly bhave increased patrols and appear to be responding more to irresponsible wild camping in the Trossachs

There was a hint that in future, landowners along with the police will be taking a possibly zero tolerance policy on fires/rubbish/damage as the fact is, the land cannot sustain this level of abuse. I think for me this year has made me think about the impact we all have on the environment when we are out and about and it's made me realise that I think open fires are no longer going to be feasable in many places. I've nearly always used old/existing firepits when having a fire but I don't even think I can justify that anymore. I think the way forward is a raised firebox which I'll need to make or buy! Certainly the landowners in the Trossachs appear to be bearing the brunt and I think that we should be leading by example and really ask if this fire is neccessary or if it is, should I use a fire box?BBQ?

WS

 

[Matt Weir]

Hi Woodsmoke,

Sorry to hear you've been ill and I hope you're better now.

This sounds like bad news but irresponsible folk will be selfish and disrespectful towards nature in this way.

I wouldn't be happy to camp in a area like this if I were you as chances are you would end up getting blamed or worse still, prosecuted.

Hope you are well.

 

[Chester`C]

If you use the "leave no trace" code of conduct fires shouldn't be a problem at all, if this was the case then use of exhisting fires pits shouldn't happen as they shouldn't be there if you get me. Sounds like un-educated people are spoiling the surroundings and leading people to believe that any wild campers are there to destroy the place rather than enjoy it

 

[Shewie]

It is a shame that the few areas of natural beauty we have left are slowly being decimated by irresponsible people. It`s subject that gets mentioned on here more and more nowadays. We don`t have a solution to the problem yet but I agree something needs to be done fairly sharpish. :AR15firin
At the same time those of us who do care about our environment, which is probably everyone on this site, should try to make sure we follow a few simple rules. Leave no trace, cut only standing dead wood, carry out all rubbish etc.

 

[Gailainne]

S orry to hear you havent been well, and I hope your feeling better,

The firebox, hobo's and other types of wood stoves " thing" has been circling this site for quite a while, and I think the reason is , even sub-conciously a lot of us have come to the same conclusion, how to minimise our impact while we camp, and using less of the natural resourses. It was something I remarked upon at my very first meet, a lot of the ppl brought wood with them !, which I found very strange, considering the amount of dead wood lying around, but the "leave no trace" I have come ro realise must also include for the natural cycle of dead wood decaying on the forest floor, and stripping the area for our fires, just does'nt feel justified, when, with a little effort, if you want to burn wood, you can either bring your own or use one of the stove designs out there, that are significantly more efficient than an open fire for cooking.

The rubbish idiots leave behind, is a cultural thing unfortunatley, my sister over from OZ could not believe how much rubbish was thrown out of cars, as well local beauty spots spoiled by the crap left behind, rather than taking the extra few seconds to place it in the rubbish bins provided.

Until that is addressed, catch the youngsters early, there is no amount of laws which will stop it.

appologies for the ramble

Stephen

 

[Nat]

S0rry to hear you've been ill woodsmoke, glad you're feeling betterish.

These are the reasons the FC and land owners are clamping down on wild camping on or near their land.

The actions of a few are ruining it for the majority.

Having a real fire or not doesn't bother me, there's enough billy's and hobos as has been mentioned to do your cooking on.

As you say, we can only lead by example and leave no trace, even if it means picking up someone elses rubbish and taking it away yourself as i'm sure many of us have done.
I would advise against asking or telling people you catch littering to pick it up as no matter how polite you are, you can almost be guaranteed of abuse back.

 

[fred gordon]

Sory to hear you have been ill and that your first walk seems to have been spoit. The new Land Reform Act and the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (SOAC) clearly sets out that people must exercise responsibility when exercising access rights. As ever it is the few who spoil it for the many and it is up to all of us to take action against these people. Be clear,what they are doing is irresponsible and therefore outside the law. Wild camping is OK as is a small fire as long as the access takers behave responsibly. This new law and SOAC are being monitored by the SCottish Government and if it is seen that people, by and large, are not behaving responsibly then the law caouls be changed and we could ALL loose our new found freedoms.

This sort of behavious make s me really angry as I have been involved with groups and individuals for most of my adult life pushing for the sort of freedoms that we now have. Our friends south of the Border would love to have these rights but be have to get real and get these people stopped from putting all our access rights in danger. If you see anything like this it is criminal and needs to be reported to the Police immediately.

S orry if this sounds like a rant but this sort of think makes my blood boil:AR15firin

 

[w00dsmoke]

Thanks for the kind words guys , not out the woods yet but getting there! Walk not spoilt, it was great to get out but just gobsmacked at the politics that have started rumbling because of an abuse of our rights by some.

I think Fred you really have hit the nail on the head. I've worked with access both as a ranger and for SNH a long time ago and like you have come to that conclusion that we may have our rights taken away from us. Without saying too much, I do know that the FC and other landowners are questioning the access law as it stands and I do know that some are asking for changes to be made, whether it is new powers for landowners as was suggested by one friend or what I don't know. The fact is we need to be aware of this before it's too late.

I was however told that unfortunatley, the FC cannot move people on and like most landowners are powerless to act with the police otherwise too overstretched in most cases to respond. This seems to me to be the problem. When folk abuse their rights, and landowners cannot respond with or without police back up, then it's unworkable, something will give and I fear that is happening now. I think we all have a responsibility, duty even to report abuse of our access rights and in this day and age with phones having cameras it's easier to take pics of cars and reg numbers to pass on without the perpetrators knowing.

 

[MikeS]

:sad6:

I think Fred you really have hit the nail on the head. I've worked with access both as a ranger and for SNH a long time ago and like you have come to that conclusion that we may have our rights taken away from us. Without saying too much, I do know that the FC and other landowners are questioning the access law as it stands and I do know that some are asking for changes to be made, whether it is new powers for landowners as was suggested by one friend or what I don't know. The fact is we need to be aware of this before it's too late.

......................

I think we all have a responsibility, duty even to report abuse of our access rights and in this day and age with phones having cameras it's easier to take pics of cars and reg numbers to pass on without the perpetrators knowing.

Sorry it has taken me a while to get round to throwing in my 10 peneth, but needed to calm down first. :BlueTeamE

I think the proplem here is the same as in most areas of society, respect !!! Why people cannot take the time to ensure what they are doing does not damage the enviroment (either in the countryside or towns) in totally beyond my simplistic brain.

IMHO people seem to be very keen to exercise "their rights" but appear to forget that with rights comes responsibilities. !!!!!!

Rant over, I just get wound you when beautiful parts of the country are not treated with the respect they are due. :sad6:

 

[Doc]

I'm with Woodsmoke on this. There are a lot of people out there exercising their rights and ignoring their responsibilities.

In particular:

There is a lot of roadside camping, often in large groups with big tents. The Access Code defines wild camping as 'lightweight' and 'small groups'. The whole idea was to allow backpacking and canoe camping, not to have tented villages springing up every weekend right beside the road. There was a very reasonable article about this in the Scottish Gamekeepers Association magazine recently, including a photo of about a dozen roadside tents. I suppose the good thing for us is that you only need to walk or paddle a mile from the road and you leave 90% of the idiots behind.

The Code states that you should not have a fire at all in certain areas, and where it is allowed, you should leave no trace. This is very widely ignored. I think I am going to go down the firebox route too, for canoe camping anyway. A fire is undoubtedly good to have but there are many places where it is either illegal or environmentally unsound and it is this judgement that is part of being a good outdoorsman.

 

[gregorach]

If you use the "leave no trace" code of conduct fires shouldn't be a problem at all, if this was the case then use of exhisting fires pits shouldn't happen as they shouldn't be there if you get me. Sounds like un-educated people are spoiling the surroundings and leading people to believe that any wild campers are there to destroy the place rather than enjoy it

Well, in principle, sure... But the fact remains that the existing fire pits are there. And in many places, they've been there for a long time.

I've always operated on the assumption that if there's a well-established fire pit, it's better to use that than to have a fire somewhere else and then try and hide the evidence. At least re-using fire pits keeps the impact contained.

I have to admit, I'm very much of the opinion that having an open camp fire is one of the great joys of camping out. Sure, you can cook on a firebox or hobo stove, but they're not much use for sitting round of a chilly evening. And if you're travelling by shanks' pony, there's a big motivation to minimise weight... It's a tricky issue right enough.

The solution used in Tasmania is that they have public barbecues set up almost anywhere you might want. Might be worth considering for areas with very high levels of use?

The one that really tees me off is when you find a huge burnt area right next to a perfectly serviceable fire pit.

 

[Doc]

The one that really tees me off is when you find a huge burnt area right next to a perfectly serviceable fire pit.

And the remains of a fire lit against a living tree. I've seen on on a loch island with charred bark up to 4 ft off the ground.

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Firepits acceptable but litter, just unacceptable.

Nick

 

[gregorach]

Yeah, litter is the main problem - and not just in the Great Outdoors. It's bleedin' everywhere. I wonder how much of the rubbish you see lying around has actually been dropped there, and how much has "migrated" from somewhere else... And how much of it has been put in the bin, only to be hauled out again by foxes.

I can certainly see that the landowners have a valid concern though - there's a legal mechanism to enforce access rights, but none to enforce the responsibilities that are supposed to go with it. Unfortunately, I can't think of any solution that doesn't involve either chipping everyone with satellite trackers, or employing an army of Rangers equipped with helicopters and thermal imaging. I suppose you could use it as a form of training for the forces, but I've never been keen (to say the least ) on getting the military involved in civilian policing...

 

[ArkAngel]

Just come back from 2 weeks at the top end of Glencoe...no better up there. Done a lot more walking than in previous years and found rubbish all over the place.

McD's coke cups seem to be a favourite along with "energy boost bars" Lucozade sport bottles.

It just irritates me no end. I take a plaggie bag with me in my rucksack. My rubbish weighs nothing and if i have room i take home other peoples that they have obviously "forgotten".

 

[h2o]

some1 needs to monitor these road side campers takin reg numbers then sending a clean up bill to them

 

[dave k]

I think this type of attitude is a real problem across the UK. People are just not taught anything about the countryside - and it shows, as they have no respect for it.

The only bit I'm not convinced about is collecting other people's rubbish. I understand it's the correct thing to do, really, but I don't think I should be cleaning up someone elses mistake. It's *their* responsability. If you just clean it up, they will keep doing it.

 

[JohnC]

I think this type of attitude is a real problem across the UK. People are just not taught anything about the countryside - and it shows, as they have no respect for it.

The only bit I'm not convinced about is collecting other people's rubbish. I understand it's the correct thing to do, really, but I don't think I should be cleaning up someone elses mistake. It's *their* responsability. If you just clean it up, they will keep doing it.

I agree that people who do it now are unlikely to have a change of behaviour, but it really is up to us to do it. When on a walk, on the journey back we get out carrier bags and pick up wrappers/cans we pass. This means our kids (7 & 10) are being educated, for the future, that littering is poor behaviour, and (hopefully) anyone seeing us picking up will change their behaviour. Even one person changing will be better than none..

 

[gregorach]

If you just clean it up, they will keep doing it.

They're going to keep doing it whether anyone else cleans it up or not.

Here's an example, from right outside my door... My road is currently closed except for access, so people seem to feel they can park wherever they like. They particularly like parking in front of the rubbish bins, so when the council comes round to empty them, they can't. So the bins end up full. What do people do? Do they try and find a nearby bin with some space in it? Do they walk round to the other side of the bin, to see if there's space on that side? No. They pile their rubbish up in the street.

I was really surprised this morning to find that the pile of rubbish outside had not been set on fire overnight.

 

[xylaria]

All fairness to DaveK my local country park has two area where numpties wild camp and drink. A few months ago one lot left more than I could pick and take home so tidyed it up and left the tent and sleeping bag. After a period of time the foxes came and left their smell the fabric started to rot and pile got really stinky. No-body has used that firepit since, or added to rubbish.

It might of worked in some way to disuade others coming there for a booze up. but I know with some of the housholds in my street they seem quite happy living in their own rubbish. Thankfully my immeadate neighbours are quite clean.

Britain has serious problem with people littering. This country is filthy because the people that live here are filthy.

I have just chosen a high school for my eldest, I picked the one with least litter, as it is an obvious clue how much it pupils and teachers think of respecting nature and their environment. The other schools had better results but I feel it more important to raise to be a respectful adult than to have bits of paper.