Trossachs-Loch Lomond problems
- Thread starter w00dsmoke
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The more I read of modern history (by which I mean the past several hundred years), the more I am convinced that nothing very much changes and, although this may be an individual's perception, there seem to be some decent folk, and there always seem to be the ignorant masses. The problems of greed, litter, anti-social behaviour, violence, etc., have always been there but (IMHO) due to modern communications, we are more aware of them. Also, perhaps due to the increasing overcrowding in this island, such problems are more evident because we are crowded together.
I personally don't think that an individual can cause big changes - but this is based on my experience that if you try to 'interfere' you are more often than not subject to abuse and your views are ignored. I could suggest that my wife and I have done our bit to improve the world by producing what we think are two decent children who will hopefully pass on our values. Yet, when I think back over the 25 years we have been together, I don't think we have explicitly taught them how to behave, they just seem to have picked it up from us. My brother and I didn't drop litter (or if we ever did then it would have been very surreptitiously, hiding it away when nobody was looking) so I find it impossible to understand it when I see people opening something and dropping the wrapping apparently without even noticing that they are doing it. But if they don't know any different, if that is how they have been brought up, then how can such behaviour be changed? My late father used to say the he believed that the best form of government is a benevolent dictator - someone with absolute power, but someone who cares about society and the people. But has there ever been such a person?
Institutionalised discipline can change people. I noticed this in myself even after only one week in the Army. Then again, I had volunteered so perhaps I was receptive to change.
Sometimes I think that I should clear up other peoples' litter, other times I don't. It may be that if someone sees me picking up their litter then that act may rub off on them. Then again, I often think that I'm simply wasting my time and that if I get started on this track, then I'm going to spend the rest of my life clearing up after other people.
So my philosophy now, perhaps because I'm well over half way through my life, might be seen as benevolent selfishness. I want to make the best of the years left to me, I want to do good for those who are receptive to my values, but in the end there's a big bad world out there that's going to hurt me if I stir it up, so I'll look for quiet corners where I can be happy doing what I like to do and let the masses rot in their own filth. My time of trying to change things is over.
End of rant, ramble, whatever you want to call it.
Geoff
I personally don't think that an individual can cause big changes - but this is based on my experience that if you try to 'interfere' you are more often than not subject to abuse and your views are ignored. I could suggest that my wife and I have done our bit to improve the world by producing what we think are two decent children who will hopefully pass on our values. Yet, when I think back over the 25 years we have been together, I don't think we have explicitly taught them how to behave, they just seem to have picked it up from us. My brother and I didn't drop litter (or if we ever did then it would have been very surreptitiously, hiding it away when nobody was looking) so I find it impossible to understand it when I see people opening something and dropping the wrapping apparently without even noticing that they are doing it. But if they don't know any different, if that is how they have been brought up, then how can such behaviour be changed? My late father used to say the he believed that the best form of government is a benevolent dictator - someone with absolute power, but someone who cares about society and the people. But has there ever been such a person?
Institutionalised discipline can change people. I noticed this in myself even after only one week in the Army. Then again, I had volunteered so perhaps I was receptive to change.
Sometimes I think that I should clear up other peoples' litter, other times I don't. It may be that if someone sees me picking up their litter then that act may rub off on them. Then again, I often think that I'm simply wasting my time and that if I get started on this track, then I'm going to spend the rest of my life clearing up after other people.
So my philosophy now, perhaps because I'm well over half way through my life, might be seen as benevolent selfishness. I want to make the best of the years left to me, I want to do good for those who are receptive to my values, but in the end there's a big bad world out there that's going to hurt me if I stir it up, so I'll look for quiet corners where I can be happy doing what I like to do and let the masses rot in their own filth. My time of trying to change things is over.
End of rant, ramble, whatever you want to call it.
Geoff
The problem with dictators is that they always think they're benevolent. So, of course, anyone who disagrees with them is self-evidently a dangerous malcontent who needs to be dealt with for the good of society. Pol Pot really thought he was doing the right thing.
I'm regretting mentioning 'benevolent dictatorship' now.
Too far off topic, really, for this thread. And, after all, it was my Dad's view, not mine.Geoff
Wishing you a speedy recovery Woodsmoke.
I remember at least one instance this summer when I was out in the Trossachs camping I could hear dance music baring from only a couple of miles away. I can't even count the number of great sites I've seen trashed by thoughtless idiots. Like Geoff I've given up carting off black bin bags of other peoples cr*p though I suspect his patience lasted longer than mine.
If it really came down to it I'd happily pay for the right to wild-camp, a license/permit for example, same as if you want to fish etc, or perhaps a membership - the Association of Bushcrafters - hehehe. At least (I would hope) that way it could help pay for the conservation of the "wild" areas we all love to find and camp in. If a ranger/police/landowner manages to find you then you'll get a lot less hassle if you can show you have an entitlement.
I'd rather keep the freedom to go off and camp wherever, but if the landowners need our reassurance then it's down to us to demonstrate that there are sections of the community that act responsibly and treasure the freedom we have in Scotland.
Trouble is I guess if none of us are leaving a trace then they only know about the ones that do.
I remember at least one instance this summer when I was out in the Trossachs camping I could hear dance music baring from only a couple of miles away. I can't even count the number of great sites I've seen trashed by thoughtless idiots. Like Geoff I've given up carting off black bin bags of other peoples cr*p though I suspect his patience lasted longer than mine.
If it really came down to it I'd happily pay for the right to wild-camp, a license/permit for example, same as if you want to fish etc, or perhaps a membership - the Association of Bushcrafters - hehehe. At least (I would hope) that way it could help pay for the conservation of the "wild" areas we all love to find and camp in. If a ranger/police/landowner manages to find you then you'll get a lot less hassle if you can show you have an entitlement.
I'd rather keep the freedom to go off and camp wherever, but if the landowners need our reassurance then it's down to us to demonstrate that there are sections of the community that act responsibly and treasure the freedom we have in Scotland.
Trouble is I guess if none of us are leaving a trace then they only know about the ones that do.
[Geoff prepares to be flamed if it was someone from BCUK
] but even at the Wilderness Gathering this year there was a corral of vehicles in the corner of the car park with music blasting out from their stereos for extended periods of time. 
Geoff
Yep. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of problems are caused by day-trippers (and anglers) rather than campers - but it's hard to prove! And how much of it is caused by people who are even aware of the new access rules in another question.
Glen Orchy on a Bank Holiday weekend. Drove up the glen on the weekend (lots of road side campers, dance music, huge fires ....... and I mean huge ..... a tree stump as being burnt in one!) and then a repeat journey a few days after and it looked like a litter/fire bomb had detonated over the area. Broke my heart.
It would be worth the local council sending patrols up these "scenic" spots over bank holiday weekends and passing out leaflets/chatting to people and encouraging them to be more responsible.
This is why I think the access laws in Scotland would not work south of the border. It's dissapointing, but I think a large section of (so-called normal) people in England don't have as much respect for the outdoors as the scots do. Its still a crying shame. As usual though, the minority spoil it for the majority.:tapedshut
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
1) Yes people are taught about rubbish, a minority drop it though.
2) So if we leave the rubbish we all have to suffer it
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Local residents check campers along the shore towards Ardeonaig, from Killin and report litter droppers and messy users to the police and council, inc. reg plates. And the police did act. I have txt-ed the anti-fly tipper number when out MTBing and spotted a **** dropping off half a dozen fridges at the Battle of Falkirk Monument and they sent the cops round to his house, I txt the reg number.
So an individual can maybe make a difference.
When teaching I'm almost a 'Benevolent Dictator'
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I know I've dropped rubbish in the past, accidents and high winds do happen. That's one reason why I tend to cart out a bit of other people's rubbish.
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
That reminds me, I have to change settings. I think the rangers clear the glens along the Hillfoots. They are suprisingly rubbish free.
Wonder how many of these numpties have a background of festival camping.
It seems to be the norm these days to assume that someone will be along to tidy up whatever mess you can create. The last morning of T in the Park seen me hauling my pals out of their tents early because "I can't take any more of this!".
I'd been sitting out catching some sun, chilling out and watching others pack up. At a guess I'd say about half of the tents there were left behind and at least a dozen were burning(giving a nice Mad Max vibe to the site and a bit worrying considering how close everyone was pitched to each other). The quantity of litter was awful even though a lot of the wheelie bins had just been emptied - folk just weren't trying.
One of the guys I was with knows me quite well and could tell I was getting a bit disturbed. He tried to pacify me by telling me how volunteers stayed behind, tidied up and earned themselves tickets for next years gig but it wasn't the mess that was getting to me so much as the fact that leaving a shambles behind was the accepted norm.
. Of course it didn't all just disappear, I was on the bike last january, plodding along in traffic and got a good view over a bridge parapet at the Leven and the high water line at one of the meanders was marked by a carpet of garbage washed down from Loch Lomond.
It seems to be the norm these days to assume that someone will be along to tidy up whatever mess you can create. The last morning of T in the Park seen me hauling my pals out of their tents early because "I can't take any more of this!".
I'd been sitting out catching some sun, chilling out and watching others pack up. At a guess I'd say about half of the tents there were left behind and at least a dozen were burning(giving a nice Mad Max vibe to the site and a bit worrying considering how close everyone was pitched to each other). The quantity of litter was awful even though a lot of the wheelie bins had just been emptied - folk just weren't trying.
One of the guys I was with knows me quite well and could tell I was getting a bit disturbed. He tried to pacify me by telling me how volunteers stayed behind, tidied up and earned themselves tickets for next years gig but it wasn't the mess that was getting to me so much as the fact that leaving a shambles behind was the accepted norm.
The floods last winter done a pretty good job of it
. Of course it didn't all just disappear, I was on the bike last january, plodding along in traffic and got a good view over a bridge parapet at the Leven and the high water line at one of the meanders was marked by a carpet of garbage washed down from Loch Lomond.
Face it, we live in a society of lazy ******** who want their own arses wiping for them. Time to cull the herd, I say. Give me a chopping block, a large cleaver and a licence to kill and I'll get on with it.
Thats very greedy Spamel, cant we have an open season and sell licenses, we could even have driven pikies.
The revenue raised from the licensing could be used to bulldoze their homes and plant trees.
Oops just realized this was tried once before could be getting into lots of trouble.....time to go now.
The revenue raised from the licensing could be used to bulldoze their homes and plant trees.
Oops just realized this was tried once before could be getting into lots of trouble.....time to go now.
