Trossachs-Loch Lomond problems

[falling rain]

It's hard to think of a solution for Loch Lomond. Designating a few sites, providing a log pile, a big bin and maybe a log shelter or two might work up in the Trossachs but at Lomond the fires would just get bigger in proportion to the pile then the shelter would get burnt for good measure.

Good intentions................ but if you provided a big log pile some clowns would use the LOT on a massive bonfire. it'd be gone in one night if the twits got hold of it, as Grooveski says. There's no way those people would be of the mind to ..................Take only a little for our needs and leave some for others...................It wouldn't even occur to them. Well not those sorts of people anyway. Unfortunately nice polite signs wouldn't work on those sorts either...............They simply don't give a damn.

 

[nicodiemus]

The whole damn nation is getting that way. Depresses the hell out of me.

 

[PaleoHunterGatherer]

'So my philosophy now, perhaps because I'm well over half way through my life, might be seen as benevolent selfishness. I want to make the best of the years left to me, I want to do good for those who are receptive to my values, but in the end there's a big bad world out there that's going to hurt me if I stir it up, so I'll look for quiet corners where I can be happy doing what I like to do and let the masses rot in their own filth. My time of trying to change things is over.'

Dgcalvert,I know exactly how you feel. I've tried for decades to educate people about this issue, sometimes with some success, mostly just disdain. Sometimes the 'big issues' like this one, just use you up and then discard you, like those bits of garbage so casually thrown aside.
Alex

 

[Elessar]

I may be going slightly of topic, but when ever i do leave an area that i have used as a camp for however long i spend a good hour or so ensureing that there is nothing left behind, i personally feel that there is a great sense of satisfaction when you can leave an area looking as though you were never there at all !!

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

So whats to stop people not bothering to check in or out in Denali national park? I'd imagine it's a big place and wouldn't be to difficult to bypass any checks for those who were that way inclined.
Nothing is 100% full proof but a licence/permit to wild camp system over here with a patrolling ranger/warden in the popular places may just be enough of a deterent to some of the twits who go and wreck our popular countryside scenic places. If it's not a deterent and these clowns go and do it anyway then the warden or ranger may just catch them and they'll be heavilly fined and have their kit taken away. It wouldn't stop it completely of course, just as jail dosn't deter burglars.

It's very remote and the rangers, armed, spots you when you enter and there is heavy fines if you miss it. Also they limit stays to avoid too much pollution etc. Also it's a safety feature.

It's a long way up there so it eliminates the idiots.

In Chamonix if you bike a walker trail in august they take one wheel away, and they ride off.

Litter is a culture issue in the UK, face it. In France/Italy/Austria/Suisse in the alps and pyrenees you just don't see litter. There is no culture of dropping it. It's socially unacceptable. In the UK people drop litter and don't care.

Nick

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Simplistic but lets say we allow the right to roam throughout the UK. (not just Scotland as it stands at the moment)
What are others thoughts?

There is no right to roam, only a right to responsible access.

A subtle difference in wording but a HUGE difference in meaning.

Landowners were worried about a right to roam but were happier to have a responsible access code (law), easier for them to prevent iresponsible users.

Nick

 

[Grooveski]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6004580.ece

 

[sirex]

this whole issue leaves me utterly on the fence.

On the one hand, i went to Scotland last week camp-site camping. I’ve read about the issues they’ve had with road side campers, but we also decided that if we were going to go to the north west next time (as opposed to the south this time), hiring a camper van or similar would be the best option. We had planned to wild camp this time (many miles away from roads) but weren’t up for it given the huge drive.

On the other hand, I’d like to wild camp in England if it was allowed, but given the laws / restrictions, mistrust, lack of common sense, grumpy people and general feeling of being branded a criminal for leaving the house I don’t want to use a knife, let alone start a fire or camp here. It’s a sad view to hold, but just the ability to enjoy nature is as under threat here as a side effect of the sorry state of our educational standards. I’m sure that there is no other alternative for fixing these types of problems in society than a huge revamp in educational standards. Perhaps the current crop of kids will seem like idiots compared to the next lot, but it’s a price worth paying.

So…. What do I do? Well, tomorrow we’re going out to buy a firepit for the back garden and a litter picker device so the two of us can tackle the litter and rubbish in the local woods. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it’s not allowed, but if someone has issues with me clearing up an area of land, I’m going to jab my litter picker squarely in their eyes.

It just pains me no end that you end up in a situation where you can only dream of being in the woods, and in reality you’re in your own back garden with bangers and a rubbish bag full of other people’s litter. Give it 5 years and I suspect fires in your own garden will be banned by some pen pusher too…. Then I’ll be reduced to “bushcraft” around the kitchen gas hob with a butter knife.

 

[East Coaster]

It's very easy to get worked up by all this littering/desecration of our countryside.:aargh4:

It may sound defeatist but I feel there is very little we can personally do about it.

We live in a country where so many people have so little respect for,,,,well almost anything really.
We're the fattest, lazziest, least respectfull, most drunken, most violent, debauched society in Europe. We have the highest rate of teenage pregnancies, the highest per capita levels of debt, highest rate of heart disease,,,, the list goes on,,,,and on
We are the most celebrity infatuated, vacant minded, materialistic, status driven, self obsessed bunch of complete and utter useless cretins going in comparison to the rest of Europe. It is of no surprise at all that many of our people wreak havoc when they "visit" the countryside.

I have always found it best to get as far from the beaten track as possible. I have very rarely come across moronic leftovers in the wilds. Anywhere near roads/well known beauty spots/official campsites etc are always going to be a problem.

Groovski, that new Ranger initiative looks interesting. I dearly hope they can prosecute some of the idiots that all of us on here hate

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

It's very easy to get worked up by all this littering/desecration of our countryside.:aargh4:

It may sound defeatist but I feel there is very little we can personally do about it.

We can do something. If, when out and about, we collect a bit of litter or report it, then it does make a difference.

The Park has some pretty bad areas for human toileting, the ruined house on Inchmoan for instance. The park needs a composting toilet in there.

Nick

 

[Shewie]

can[/B] do something. If, when out and about, we collect a bit of litter or report it, then it does make a difference.

The Park has some pretty bad areas for human toileting, the ruined house on Inchmoan for instance. The park needs a composting toilet in there.

Nick

It's a good habbit to get into when you've got a spare ten minutes, I always carry a bin liner in my back pocket.

Now I've got a canoe I'll be cleaning up even more I think

 

[Toddy]

Most of the schools' country comes to the city days I work have a team from the anti littering agencies there trying to teach and advise.
One of the girls working their tent blethered to me for a while and quoted some statistics........85% of the population routinely drop litter, nowadays 50% will at least look for a bin. There is a culture of littering, and it's not going to change easily. I watched a child say to his mum, "That's litter, you should find a bin." only to get his ears rattled with an angry, "Don't be so ******* cheeky!! "
Wonder if he'll grow up to be part of the 15% or not ?

At least if the bins are there, half the rubbish can be collected from one site, how the hang we deal with the rest though ? Ol' Smokey had a good idea about work parties, especially if it could be widely advertised so that even the culprits knew that there was a come and help clear up weekend................Radio Clyde or Scotland fm advertising, "get off your (whatever) and come and help clean up Loch Lomond this weekend !", every single person who doesn't leave their muck behind but takes it home, is a result. We need to figure out how to encourage that.

The loos are a whole other issue, if there aren't any then the place will get trashed. It's all very well demanding that folks clean up, but the dominant culture is such that things like loos and bins are necessities in areas where large numbers congregate. Sad but true nonetheless.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[w00dsmoke]

I think we could do an awful lot to raise awareness and only through this along with many other approaches can the culture change.
Ole smokey's idea was fabulous, maybe we could do it this time. My worry and concern would be that all we would end up doing is reinforcing existing habits. If we wandered around the loch or the Trossachs picking the rubbish up then visitors sympathetic or not would continue to expect that it would be picked up.

On the other hand as an awareness raising project ti would do well into shaming the users and managers of the park that an almost unknown responsible group of likeminded bushcrafters were doing this then I feel it would work very well.

Now this is verging on the political, please delete if any MODS think so...but I saying using our civic duties...

I wrote to this guy with my gripes regarding the state of Loch Chon, the Trossachs, the attitude of the FC staff when we once asked them to take litter away (it was initially not helpful) and what they as landowners are doing with regards to the problem? I got a very nice reply which said a lot but said not very much if you know what I mean?

If all users of the FC Trossachs/Loch Lomond on here contacted him then he may make it a bigger priority.

Stuart Chalmers
District Forester Tourism and Communities
Forestry Commission Scotland
Aberfoyle
Stirling
FK8 3UX

Stuart DOT Chalmers @forestry.gsi.gov.uk

And for Loch Lomond and the Trosachs National Park Access Forum to pass on our concerns we have this useful link and email.
http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org/looking-after/local-access-forum/menu-id-407.html
accessforum@lochlomond-trossachs.org


Let's carry out our civic responsibilities seriously.

WS

 

[sirex]

this sort of attitude starts in the cities i believe. I was once following a group of teenagers on a highstreet pavement when one of them tossed an entire mcdonalds bag (the cup, wrappers, plastic lids, straws, and everything else) over their shoulder and it smacked down on the pavement at the foot of a bush. I was literally speechless.

 

[East Coaster]

this sort of attitude starts in the cities i believe. I was once following a group of teenagers on a highstreet pavement when one of them tossed an entire mcdonalds bag (the cup, wrappers, plastic lids, straws, and everything else) over their shoulder and it smacked down on the pavement at the foot of a bush. I was literally speechless.

Probably just as well,,,,,,,, you may have ended up down the local casualty ward if you'd said anything

Where I walk my dogs at night there is occasionally teenagers hiding away to drink.
There's often the usual detritus left about which is annoying but what really really gets my anger going is broken bottles (for obvious reasons!)
One evening I heard a bottle smashing from a distance and when i came upon a group of about a dozen of them I just lost it big time and started ranting and raving at them.

I said I couldn't care less what they were doing or drinking but to put their ing rubbish and bottles in the bins 10 yards away.

There was a bit of a stunned silence and I just walked away (thinking bloody hell, that could have turned nasty!).

Of course when I was a couple of hundred yards away the torrents of abuse started and i then heard more bottles being smashed.
Think my behaviour probably made things worse

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

In defence of kids

A small number of kids drop litter. For the ones that drop it you can see others who don't.
I had a brekkie at Stirling BK. Adults opened their door and dropped litter in the carpark, next to a bin.

Nick

 

[Shewie]

I followed the dustbin lorry down our street one morning a few weeks ago, as it got down to the bottom a white paper bag which previously contained his breakfast no doubt, and a couple of napkins came flying out of the drivers window.

I beeped at them on the way past and kind of threw my arms up in disbelief but they just blanked me and carried on with what they were doing.

 

[sirex]

suprisingly, i've been mostly finding flowerpots and gardeners waste as the biggest rubbish source after the usual suspects of news papers, dog crap, drink cans, and crisp packets.

You wouldnt expect that type of person to be a big sinner ?

p.s: does anyone know of a hiking pole that has a litter picker on it ? - would be great