Trossachs-Loch Lomond problems
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Funny you should mention that. I can remember having a chat with someone (if memory serves me right it was a ranger or forestry worker of some sort) up near loch Lomond and they said they "blamed" (for want of a better word) companies such as Blacks and Millets and their summer festival "kits" i.e. a dirt cheap tent, x4 sleeping bags and mats, rucksacks, and gas stove etc that all in goes for about £50! They said it was all so cheap that people didn't care about the kit so at the end of their camping trip would just leave everything there ..... still set up ....... and drive off
! If they want to go again the future they just go and by another load of kit!In this consumer society these companies tread a fine line between encouraging people to get outdoors and (responsibly) enjoy the countryside and actively encouraging (irresponsible) people to go out and litter. Maybe these low cost outdoors shops should help educate people before they give them the kit ...... or offer an incentive if they bring it back
!
I've even come across a couple of sites where they had just torched the lot instead.
Aye, ten quid tents are definately part of the problem but what I was wondering was how many young folk were seeing the attitude at festivals as their first camping experience and going away with some wierd idea that that's how it's done.
A young lass at my work spent the same weekend in the same muddy coup and afterwards said to me something along the lines of "Can't believe you go camping for fun, that was a nightmare, I'm never doing that again".
Telling her "That wasn't camping, that was dossing in a field" didn't work. That shambles is camping for her.
On the way out I'd desensitized a bit, had taken to wombling abandoned kipmats and said to my mate that at least they were leaving all their gear there so wouldn't be dumping it anywhere else.
I think there was an incentive to leave the tents, something about them getting sent somewhere. Apparently there is a market somewhere for thousands of muddy twenty quid tesco tents. They all have to end up somewhere don't they?
A young lass at my work spent the same weekend in the same muddy coup and afterwards said to me something along the lines of "Can't believe you go camping for fun, that was a nightmare, I'm never doing that again".
Telling her "That wasn't camping, that was dossing in a field" didn't work. That shambles is camping for her.
On the way out I'd desensitized a bit, had taken to wombling abandoned kipmats and said to my mate that at least they were leaving all their gear there so wouldn't be dumping it anywhere else.
I think there was an incentive to leave the tents, something about them getting sent somewhere. Apparently there is a market somewhere for thousands of muddy twenty quid tesco tents. They all have to end up somewhere don't they?
as devils advocate i have to say that in the past i have been to many so called 'illegal raves' and i can guarantee you that after every single one there was a team of people cleaning up rubbish afterwards and there were very few fires. the organizers of such events are usually extremely sympathetic and sensitive to their environment even if some of the participants are not.
i think flytippers on the other hand, deserve to be flytipped on. there is no excuse i can think of for people driving their cars and dumping a whole load of stuff a few miles from an official council dump.
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
this is starting to sound like work.
It is a major problem in urban areas as well as rural - I deal with it for a living. People have been pandered to for too long and now expect the State not to be a safety net but there to do every thing for them.
In my area flytipping is a big problem but people simply opening the door and throwing everything out into teh garden is a bigger problem.
It is a major problem in urban areas as well as rural - I deal with it for a living. People have been pandered to for too long and now expect the State not to be a safety net but there to do every thing for them.
In my area flytipping is a big problem but people simply opening the door and throwing everything out into teh garden is a bigger problem.
There are good and bad in all groups. I'm an angler and I always take every scrap of rubbish away with me and pick up discarded line if I see it, as do a lot of other anglers I know. There will always be some who let the side down though as there will be campers, hill walkers, day trippers, canoeists, mountain bikers etc.
I remember an episode of RM's 'Bushcraf't when he was in Sweden talking to Lars Falt about how Swedish people have respect for 'The Nature'. A lot of people don't deserve to be allowed into our countryside for the way they treat it. Scotland has these wonderful laws and some people just S**t on them. It's disgraceful and I don't blame the landowners for wanting to limit access.
I think the laws of free access should be nationwide and you need to apply for a licence to Wild Camp. (say £10 per year) If you abuse it, you lose it, and then if you wild camp and get caught you'll be heavily fined or community service. Drastic but it may teach the un- initiated to take a little more care, and show a little more respect which they obviously lack. If it dosn't teach them, then they don't deserve to be in our beautiful countryside anyway, and they lose the right to wild camp and will be restricted to campsites..........................with armed guards and machine gun nests and rottweilers patrolling the perimeter with great big spikey collars
I didn't mean to unfairly tar all anglers there - it's just that because there are so many anglers, the number who are idiots is also quite large.
The main problem with any enforcement strategy is simply the question of how you actually police it effectively. Unless you've got a veritable army of rangers, equipped with helicopters and night-vision gear, you're simply not going to catch anyone.
The main problem with any enforcement strategy is simply the question of how you actually police it effectively. Unless you've got a veritable army of rangers, equipped with helicopters and night-vision gear, you're simply not going to catch anyone.
Local residents check campers along the shore towards Ardeonaig, form Killin and report litter droppers and messy users to the police and council, inc. reg plates. And the police did act. I have txt-ed the anti-fly tipper number when out MTBing and spotted a **** dropping off half a dozen fridges at the Battle of Falkirk Monument and they sent the cops round to his house, I txt the reg number.
So an individual can maybe make a difference.
Nick
being proactive like this is the only hope we have. whether carrying out the mess others leave behind (unpleasant) or taking names and numbers when you see such damaging behavior and dealing with it accordingly (even more unpleasant)
education early in life is important, but more and more it seems a large percentage of humanity is unteachable. i may not like the cull of animals (unless for solid scientifically proven reasons, or for food) , but i would happily join in on culling these types.
The ranger boat on Loch Lomond is a tactical black rhib with a pair of dramatically large engines, all the scenario lacks is a shotgun rack and a pair of mirror shades
.It gets about too, I'm sure they pull up their share of edjits. Got to be tricky though when you can't tell how much respect folk have until they leave
.I can't stand people that litter.
I remember when we were lads i gave my best mate a right nut roasting. We'd been at the pub and walking back to his place through a wooded area.. he threw the remains of his fish supper on the path. He doesn't do it anymore... and we have infinite contempt for the w***ers that fly tip and dump in woodland.
One of my favorite woodland spots is often riddled with tins of cheap lager.. sometimes neatly tied into plastic sainsburys bags???
I remember when we were lads i gave my best mate a right nut roasting. We'd been at the pub and walking back to his place through a wooded area.. he threw the remains of his fish supper on the path. He doesn't do it anymore... and we have infinite contempt for the w***ers that fly tip and dump in woodland.
One of my favorite woodland spots is often riddled with tins of cheap lager.. sometimes neatly tied into plastic sainsburys bags???
There are indeed anglers who show blatent disrespect for the shoreline and wildlife by discarding tackle thoughtlessly but there's been a big movement in recent years by angling clubs, magazines and forums to try and put a stop to it and things are improving.
I suppose it's proportinate to how many people per capita take part in their chosen sport. I've seen loads of rubbish left by mountain bikers in Shotover where I live and other rubbish left by walkers in various scenic places. Every activity has it's share of clowns.
If you take angling then, (not sea angling at the moment but it will come) That people need a national rod licence and then a payable permit for the particular stretch of water or lake they are going to fish. Wouldn't it be possible to run things something along those lines.
Simplistic but lets say we allow the right to roam throughout the UK. (not just Scotland as it stands at the moment) If you want to wild camp you need a National Wild Camping licence and a permit for the particular area you want to go to, to do so, and there will be a simple set of rules on the back of your permit to leave no trace, be responsible about fires, don't disturb wildlife etc, etc. (I don't mean just going for a walk, but actually camping out overnight) So there is no excuse for anyone to say they wern't aware of the rules. This would generate an amount of money that could go towards paying a Ranger/warden who would be responsible for checking/patrolling that people wern't taking the P*** and were camping responsibly. The Ranger/warden would have the power to ask to see your licence and permit and check you arn't destroying the area and are camping responsibly. They could be available from post offices for the National licence and local permits from the village shop near where you're going or local camping or outdoorshops, which is pretty much how angling permits are done.
We'd get peace of mind that we're camping legally and any people caught doing so illegally would have their equipment confiscated and fined as is the case with illegal anglers.
This would only really be necessary in the popular areas such as the lakes, Dartmoor, Exmoor, Cairngorms, New forest etc where there's a problem with wild campers ruining the area. Most local councils will know where the hotspots are. If people or groups get punchy the law gets called.
I know this sounds simple and there would need to be a lot more looking into it but it could work. Unfortunately draconian and unfair as it all sounds it would be necessary as not everyone does respect our lovely countryside and as they don't respect a lot of things and unfortunately thats the world we live in a price we'd have to pay.
I'd be willing to pay a £10 - £20 for a national wild camping licence and maybe a further £2 per night for the permit for the area I wish to camp in.
What are others thoughts?
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
So whats to stop people not bothering to check in or out in Denali national park? I'd imagine it's a big place and wouldn't be to difficult to bypass any checks for those who were that way inclined.
Nothing is 100% full proof but a licence/permit to wild camp system over here with a patrolling ranger/warden in the popular places may just be enough of a deterent to some of the twits who go and wreck our popular countryside scenic places. If it's not a deterent and these clowns go and do it anyway then the warden or ranger may just catch them and they'll be heavilly fined and have their kit taken away. It wouldn't stop it completely of course, just as jail dosn't deter burglars.
As the police are so overstretched my thoughts would be to use an existing service such as National Park Rangers and give them a course not disimilar to a parking wardens course but different focus or similar rights as excersised by water baillifs, this would give them the training and legality to fine/evict/prosecute. Most of the problems are in honeyspot areas, so use the exisiting workforce, retrain and empower them and take no prisoners! It could be monitored and run with the police.It could only work if it brought in a revenue to that Authority area...that way councils have an incentive to make it work.
We all agree something needs to be done NOW before it's too late.
We all agree something needs to be done NOW before it's too late.
I agree with the sentiment, there are plenty of folk getting sick of the way things are going.
Back when the SOAC was being drawn up the wild camping arrangements were being pushed forward by outdoor activity orginisations(Ramblers, climbers, mountain bikers, canoeists, nature watchers, etc.). It wouldn't be fair to say the new laws aren't working because these folk are getting on with things quite happily.
What I don't think anyone realised how many new people would start going out simply for the hell of wild camping. Hazy as the old laws may have been the uncertainty did put some off, and I feel others took more care what they were doing because there was the knowledge that they were on someone elses property. Now there is the feeling that they have the right.....
....which they do, but some are pushing it too far. I heard of a farmer approaching a group in the summer only to have the access laws spouted in his face. They were cutting live wood to keep a large fire going, there were around eight of them and they'd been there for days but still they felt they had the right.
What to do in the National Parks? I've no idea. The parks were bandied around when the laws were being changed as being able to cope with the increased numbers. If there were restrictions placed on the parks I reckon folk would just wander further afield, dumping the problem on individual landowners. That's not on and would cause even more grief.
It'd be easy to say education was the key but the problem stems from a small number of folk who just don't give a damn. There's a good chance that having trashed an area of Loch Lomond last year some of them will be wandering to somewhere new next year.
Loch Long is certainly being hit, there are fire rings sprouting along the far shore but at least with a FC plantation there the woodland damage is minimal.
More power to rangers is probably the best bet, maybe a few signs at the parking areas with a plea not to trash the place and a couple of photos of sites to try to shame some sense into them.
Whether that'd work is anyone's guess though. The problem groups must know that what they're doing is wrong.
Noticed this year that the wee clump of trees between Balmaha and the Endrick is about half gone now.
Back when the SOAC was being drawn up the wild camping arrangements were being pushed forward by outdoor activity orginisations(Ramblers, climbers, mountain bikers, canoeists, nature watchers, etc.). It wouldn't be fair to say the new laws aren't working because these folk are getting on with things quite happily.
What I don't think anyone realised how many new people would start going out simply for the hell of wild camping. Hazy as the old laws may have been the uncertainty did put some off, and I feel others took more care what they were doing because there was the knowledge that they were on someone elses property. Now there is the feeling that they have the right.....
....which they do, but some are pushing it too far. I heard of a farmer approaching a group in the summer only to have the access laws spouted in his face. They were cutting live wood to keep a large fire going, there were around eight of them and they'd been there for days but still they felt they had the right.
What to do in the National Parks? I've no idea. The parks were bandied around when the laws were being changed as being able to cope with the increased numbers. If there were restrictions placed on the parks I reckon folk would just wander further afield, dumping the problem on individual landowners. That's not on and would cause even more grief.
It'd be easy to say education was the key but the problem stems from a small number of folk who just don't give a damn. There's a good chance that having trashed an area of Loch Lomond last year some of them will be wandering to somewhere new next year.
Loch Long is certainly being hit, there are fire rings sprouting along the far shore but at least with a FC plantation there the woodland damage is minimal.
More power to rangers is probably the best bet, maybe a few signs at the parking areas with a plea not to trash the place and a couple of photos of sites to try to shame some sense into them.
Whether that'd work is anyone's guess though. The problem groups must know that what they're doing is wrong.
Noticed this year that the wee clump of trees between Balmaha and the Endrick is about half gone now.
It's hard to think of a solution for Loch Lomond. Designating a few sites, providing a log pile, a big bin and maybe a log shelter or two might work up in the Trossachs but at Lomond the fires would just get bigger in proportion to the pile then the shelter would get burnt for good measure.
I despair to think just how true that statement is.
BTW I like the TA comment, I would think a bunch of yobs in full swing suddenly surrounded by camoed army types in full gear would get the message across quite nicely. I would have thought the army would appreciate an extra training resource..the way our countryside is getting they would'nt run out of opportunities for a while.
Stephen
